Letter prompts base to change flight suit rules

[GoSox]

Appreciate the words. But I will also submit to you that there is a VERY practical and logical argument against this Col's policy -- the guys who feel as strongly as me about this piece of trivial heritage (and that is most of them) will also feel, like me, punished for someone else's stupidity. Morale on this unit took a hit for a very stupid reason. And, like I said, they will remember. And eventually, some will vote with their feet (silly as that course of action may seem).

I know you're not being literal, but the idea that somebody would walk because they can't wear their flight suit as much as they used to does seem, well, silly.

 

[Bullet]

Morale of the pilots? What about the support? Not only after this idiots FIRST letter, but following it up with a second.... "you've decided your place in the hierarchy...." ummmmm......

So, your recommended solution is to encourage, and worse yet increase, the "US vs. Them" mentality on the base through mass punishment of those not involved, versus an "Us vs. HIM" solution that uses a very public chastisement and re-education of the individual responsible by making see how the other half contributes by having him follow them around for a few weeks (and perhaps writing a third letter, with a "mea culpa" focus, describing his experience in their shoes?)

Man, I would have hated to be at one of your Captain's Masts!

 

[LineInTheSand]

Where has he learned anything? He wrote a follow up that was worse than the first letter.

The colonel, to me, is seeing the flight suit as something divisive. He didn't make it that way, the captain did. If it's so revered, why wear anything else....if not, why wear it when they don't need it.

I have PLENTY of pilot friends.... know when they wear their flight suits? When they're flying.

I didn't see them walking around at CGHQ in flight suits. Does that make them less proud of their wings? Not likely. It's a flight program that existed years before the Air Force. I don't hear them crying foul when they found out flight suits are for flying.... not for desk work. Not for admin work.

The Coast Guard airdale community is close, I won't argue that. And yes, communities exist, like airdales or cuttermen... even within those communities you could have helo or fixed wing or white hull or black hull (or red).... but I haven't ever viewed those flight suits as a status symbol. I haven't viewed them as a way to divide the service. Some people fly. Some go to ships. Some are on land.

Maybe this mentality is unique to the Air Force.

 

[Bullet]

I know you're not being literal, but the idea that somebody would walk because they can't wear their flight suit as much as they used to does seem, well, silly.

One of MANY issues that has the aircrew community grumbling about how the AF is losing focus on the mission and is getting more wrapped around the queep. For some, this may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. For others, it will be another straw to store away for another day....

Talk to any aircrew member over 28 and ask them what it was like in the "old days". Sift through the BS and 10% truths, and you'll soon realize a lot have a very sad opinion on where the AF is focusing on right now.

And don't get me wrong. Like Scout said, folks just like to Bee-atch. Happened back in my day as well. EVERY pilot / flier start to grab the young pups by the neck over a beer and tell them how they had it so much better in the "old days". Some even grumbled how they couldn't wait to get out because of it. Me? I usually just looked at them and said "You know, people would PAY to do what we do. To me, dealing with these little issues is worth it if I still get to fly every few days. How many times you gonna get to dog-fight at Delta?"

 

[LineInTheSand]

One of MANY issues that has the aircrew community grumbling about how the AF is losing focus on the mission and is getting more wrapped around the queep. For some, this may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. For others, it will be another straw to store away for another day....

Talk to any aircrew member over 28 and ask them what it was like in the "old days". Sift through the BS and 10% truths, and you'll soon realize a lot have a very sad opinion on where the AF is focusing on right now.

And don't get me wrong. Like Scout said, folks just like to Bee-atch. Happened back in my day as well. EVERY pilot / flier start to grab the young pups by the neck over a beer and tell them how they had it so much better in the "old days". Some even grumbled how they couldn't wait to get out because of it. Me? I usually just looked at them and said "You know, people would PAY to do what we do. To me, dealing with these little issues is worth it if I still get to fly every few days. How many times you gonna get to dog-fight at Delta?"

Experienced an AF presentation at McGuire. It was for a number of senior civilian leaders. At no time did they talk about planes. It was constantly "we're on the ground.... we're outside the wire".

American's associate the Air Force with the air. The presentation at McGuire turned a lot of the civilians off. Embrace what the AF should be about. Don't try to compensate.

So, I think I understand what you're saying, but at the same time, this is a MUCH bigger issue than a simple flight suit. It's something the Air Force needs to figure out... it's beyond the cloth someone wears.

 

[GoSox]

One of MANY issues that has the aircrew community grumbling about how the AF is losing focus on the mission and is getting more wrapped around the queep. For some, this may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. For others, it will be another straw to store away for another day....

Talk to any aircrew member over 28 and ask them what it was like in the "old days". Sift through the BS and 10% truths, and you'll soon realize a lot have a very sad opinion on where the AF is focusing on right now.

And don't get me wrong. Like Scout said, folks just like to Bee-atch. Happened back in my day as well. EVERY pilot / flier start to grab the young pups by the neck over a beer and tell them how they had it so much better in the "old days". Some even grumbled how they couldn't wait to get out because of it. Me? I usually just looked at them and said "You know, people would PAY to do what we do. To me, dealing with these little issues is worth it if I still get to fly every few days. How many times you gonna get to dog-fight at Delta?"

Fair enough. Made me think about the different communities within the USMC. One thing that helps us, I think, is that all officers (even the lawyers gawd help 'em) have to go through TBS. So I look at an aviator and I think, "that guy can do everything I can do (at some level, at least) and I sure as hell can't fly." All the hiking at Quantico during TBS (not to mention Land Nav follies) also gives our aviators a good insight into the travails of the infantry.

 

[Bullet]

Where has he learned anything? He wrote a follow up that was worse than the first letter.

The colonel, to me, is seeing the flight suit as something divisive. He didn't make it that way, the captain did. If it's so revered, why wear anything else....if not, why wear it when they don't need it.

I have PLENTY of pilot friends.... know when they wear their flight suits? When they're flying.

I didn't see them walking around at CGHQ in flight suits. Does that make them less proud of their wings? Not likely. It's a flight program that existed years before the Air Force. I don't hear them crying foul when they found out flight suits are for flying.... not for desk work. Not for admin work.

The Coast Guard airdale community is close, I won't argue that. And yes, communities exist, like airdales or cuttermen... even within those communities you could have helo or fixed wing or white hull or black hull (or red).... but I haven't ever viewed those flight suits as a status symbol. I haven't viewed them as a way to divide the service. Some people fly. Some go to ships. Some are on land.

Maybe this mentality is unique to the Air Force.

You've very succinctly stated where you're wrong if you think the Colonel is correct in thinking it's the flight suit that is the divisive issue here. It's not. It's the Capt ATTITUDE that is the divisive factor, not what he is wearing. His attitude drives home the standard "us versus them, "haves versus have nots", "arrogant and entitled versus hard working back-bone of the service" agendas here. That is the problem that needed to be addressed here, not what others were wearing.

Trust me, your question of "if it is so revered, why wear anything else?" would be met with a very loud and resounding "we would if we could get away with it!" response from a vast majority. Seriously, do you prefer to wear the monkey suit or the uniform that you go out and conquer the world in?

You won't see many AF aviators walking around the Pentagon in flight suits, either (except on Fridays, when even the CSAF and all the other GOs are wearing theirs). It's pretty much understood around ALL the services that their are times and places that it isn't appropriate -- working at a staff desk job in the HQs with other services or civilians outside of the DoD (like Congress) is one of them.

But the issue in question is back at an Ops unit, "in garrison" so to speak. Away from the areas where you have to "appear professional to the muckety-mucks". (Which is something I HATE working in the Pentagon. My Profession is to beak things and kill people. Why are we trying to fool Congress by dressing up in our monkey suits and primping around like its a parade?)

I get it, you don't understand the AF culture, one focused almost exclusively on airpower and its application (I try to ignore the space guys, I just don't get them). Other services have other cultures, based on their histories and missions. I've seen the Army's, and the Marine's, and the Navy's. Haven't experienced the Coast Guard's as much, but I'm guessing I would see it the same as you see the AF's -- just a little "off".

 

[LineInTheSand]

You've very succinctly stated where you're wrong if you think the Colonel is correct in thinking it's the flight suit that is the divisive issue here. It's not. It's the Capt ATTITUDE that is the divisive factor, not what he is wearing. His attitude drives home the standard "us versus them, "haves versus have nots", "arrogant and entitled versus hard working back-bone of the service" agendas here. That is the problem that needed to be addressed here, not what others were wearing.

Trust me, your question of "if it is so revered, why wear anything else?" would be met with a very loud and resounding "we would if we could get away with it!" response from a vast majority. Seriously, do you prefer to wear the monkey suit or the uniform that you go out and conquer the world in?

You won't see many AF aviators walking around the Pentagon in flight suits, either (except on Fridays, when even the CSAF and all the other GOs are wearing theirs). It's pretty much understood around ALL the services that their are times and places that it isn't appropriate -- working at a staff desk job in the HQs with other services or civilians outside of the DoD (like Congress) is one of them.

But the issue in question is back at an Ops unit, "in garrison" so to speak. Away from the areas where you have to "appear professional to the muckety-mucks". (Which is something I HATE working in the Pentagon. My Profession is to beak things and kill people. Why are we trying to fool Congress by dressing up in our monkey suits and primping around like its a parade?)

I get it, you don't understand the AF culture, one focused almost exclusively on airpower and its application (I try to ignore the space guys, I just don't get them). Other services have other cultures, based on their histories and missions. I've seen the Army's, and the Marine's, and the Navy's. Haven't experienced the Coast Guard's as much, but I'm guessing I would see it the same as you see the AF's -- just a little "off".

Fair enough!

I don't see the uniform as the divisive issue. I see what is may come to symbolize at that unit as the issue.

 

[flieger83]

If I come in, in uniform.... I think I'm violating some kind of law. I separated in June of 2011.

In 2010 I believe I was at the kick off dinner for a DOD conference. I coordinated the Coast Guard portion of the event. Each service invited a few members to represent them. Because the conference was taking place in SOUTHCOM AOR, the SOUTHCOM commander, AF Gen Frasier I believe, was on hand.

From the Coast Guard was the deputy chief of public affairs (a GS-15, the chief of public affairs had something develop last minute) and the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard. MCPO-CG is the top enlisted member of the Coast Guard.

At some point people asked about relations with Cuba. Gen. Frasier responded that the U.S. had little direct interaction with Cuba beyond the GTMO and the local town near the base.

MCPO-CG Bowen spoke up and said the Coast Guard also had regular interaction with Cuba.

Gen. Frasier responded with "The Coast Guard isn't military" and then retraced his steps.

Later in the night MCPO-CG Bowen went to greet the general, who turned, gave him a brief hand shake, and turned his back on the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard.

Needless to say, Gen Frasier made quite the impression. MCPO-CG Bowen made a point of bring this up to Adm. Allen, the Commandant of the Coast Guard, who happened to be traveling to SOUTHCOM the following week.

You would expect an O-10 in the Air Force to know about the forces in his AOR, especially considering the commander of Joint Interagency Task Force South (JIATF South) is a Coast Guard rear admiral.

Well, I've been told Adm. Allen had an extensive talk with Gen. Frasier regarding the earlier confusion.

Sad statement...

I agree; you'd think an 0-10 would know things like that...I've done some "joint work" and had USCG folks there...it was nice because they were the Law Enforcement folks...gave us some extra "punch" when I was flying out of Panama doing anti-drug work! "Bad guys" weren't too worried about us BUT when the USCG folks showed up they knew they were in trouble...

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[sprog]

Good question. I've been asking that for years now.

I was a missileer.

We used to have our own uniform that was unique to our career field. It was a dark blue uniform called the "blue bag." When I was in, it was a one-piece suit similar to the flight suit except, as noted, dark blue. Before the 1990s, missile crews wore a two-piece blue uniform called "crew blues." Before that, missile crews wore a unique white uniform. Since the inception of ICBMs, there had always been a uniform to identify the missileer. That changed about 10 years ago.

Indeed, the USAF got rid of the blue bag in 2001 as a cost-saving measure. They made us wear the flight suit. The VAST majority of coneheads were not thrilled about it. We have our own heritage that we are proud of.

If you want to blame someone for putting our guys in flight suits, the missile crewmember is not the place to look. In fact, it was a pilot's decision. The conehead would much prefer to be in a blue bag.

 

[Christcorp]

There's a definitely a fine line between those who have pride in their individual job/career and standing out; and those who are part of the norm and don't like seeing others stand out.

In the late 70's - early 80's, the air force still wore Fatigues. But if you were in a tactical and/or deployable job, we already had been wearing "Camo" for a while. We had jungle and desert versions. We also wore MA-1 flight jackets. At the time, when you were in garrison on a base with thousands of airmen, and a small group were wearing a different uniform with velcro name/rank tags, you definitely stood out. And there was a lot of bitter attitudes towards us. Whether you were tac-com, mob, combat-com, etc... you stood out. Attitudes changed once the rest of the air force went to BDU style uniforms.

As for flight suits, we only wore those when we were doing flying missions. If we weren't flying, we wore our camo. Still pissed off a lot of folks on the base who wasn't use to the tac-world, but I know if we also wore our flight suits many would have had a baby. Being a tenant on a fixed base had it's advantages, but prior to the mid-80's you definitely stood out and that wasn't always a good thing. Then again, I probably only wore service dress blues less than 20 times in my entire 21 year career.

 

[AF6872]

Still think they look sloppy in BDU's traveling. Just my HO but times change. It was a pain to have a good looking uniform while traveling twelve, twenty four or thirty hours.

 

[USAFretired1996]

The "chick magnet" comment may have come from some old retired CMSgt (and who is to say what his motivation for the comment was? Jealosy? Envy? Pissed off at the pilot culture? Etc.) But, if you want to continue this "let's be honest" vein of posting, the sentiment of the rest of the paragraph in mention is yours and yours alone. At least have the courage to stand by what you wrote.

As an old retired CMSgt myself, this description of the chief sounds like it's made with some derision...

 

[AF6872]

Thought those CMSgt had more Bhat.

 

[2012mom?]

Posted the original article to a retired USAF O-6 (pilot). His comment (verbatim from his email back to me): "What a bunch of crap - the flight suit was designed for wear when engaged in aerial flight not to wear as a status symbol."

 

[Bullet]

Posted the original article to a retired USAF O-6 (pilot). His comment (verbatim from his email back to me): "What a bunch of crap - the flight suit was designed for wear when engaged in aerial flight not to wear as a status symbol."

Funny, I've talked to a BUNCH of current flyers still in the AF, and their comments (have to paraphrase here because there are so many, but they all had similar sentiments): "Just another example of how the current leadership "just doesn't get it"." Quite a few added: "Just one more reason I can't wait until my commitment is up."

I wonder whose opinion the AF leadership should be more concerned about, the guy no longer flying or the guys who currently are? OK, you got me. Trick Question there; I KNOW whose opinion they are more concerned about. Hint: it ain't the retired O-6.

Just gotta ask the question to all those who have such heart-burn and about AF fliers wearing flight suits at their home station, in garrison. What do you really care? Is it THAT important to you?

It is to them, for a LOT of reasons.

BTW: Wearing a flight suit while behind the desk and not on the flight schedule that day seems perfectly acceptable to this guy.

 

[scoutpilot]

Quite a few added: "Just one more reason I can't wait until my commitment is up."

Selfless service at its finest.

Sorry to hear that getting paid to fly the world's most advanced airframes after getting free college doesn't quite overcome the indignity of not getting to wear a flightsuit at all times.

 

[Bullet]

Selfless service at its finest.

Sorry to hear that getting paid to fly the world's most advanced airframes after getting free college doesn't quite overcome the indignity of not getting to wear a flightsuit at all times.

Frankly, I'm in 100% agreement with you (and my service to full retirement kind of shows that, I guess).

But it comes down to many feeling they are dying the "death of 1000 cuts". Sometimes, those cuts add up, and some feel the costs no longer outweigh the benefits.

BTW, how's that whole "Army retention of it's junior officers" issue working out? You know, the fact that many are getting out because of the multiple deployments (which the AF guys are also feeling), the silly rules, and the feeling they are being led by "of a generation of feckless, careerist officers that just needs to "die off"".

Sorry to hear that leading the world's finest Army after getting a free college doesn't overcome some of the same issues the AF folks are using as their logic for getting out.

Glass houses. Stones.

 

[Pima]

Not getting in the mix, just want to give clarification to 2 posts.

Sorry to hear that getting paid to fly the world's most advanced airframes after getting free college

No ROTC scholarship pays for room and board, thus to state "FREE" is a fallacy. Many officers come in not only through ROTC, but also OTS. Only an SA grad has a "FREE" education from the perspective of your post Scout, and let's be real they are not the majority.

AFROTC offers every yr scholarships to @ 15-20% of all applicants. DS commissioned AFROTC with a rated slot 3 weeks ago. 13 other cadets got rated, he was the only scholarship cadet. His best friend has 35K+ in loans, so please don't go down this route of "GETTING A FREE EDUCATION" I know for a fact that not every flier in the AF got a free education.

I would like to know as a rated officer what is your time commitment? AF it is 10 yrs after winging, UPT is 1 yr until you wing = 11 yrs. before they can bolt. I believe you are an 07 USMA grad, can you bolt after this 1st operational assignment, or will you need to stay like your AF counterparts until 2018?

An AFA pilot grad that can leave now entered the academy in 1997.

Come back to us when you PCS 2 times in the next 6 yrs., and your Doc wife has had to re-certify in Germany and let's say TX. She has had to re-start her career over and over again. If you never leave your post and she can hang there it is no harm, no foul, but once she has to start her career over again because of you, it will be a marital issue. Even in the very best marriages that fact will be thrown in your face..."I gave up my career/family for you !" If you have a great marriage that comment was stated out of frustration for her own career, if it is not so great it will be a wedge in your life. I have seen both, and than there is the 3rd, AD member does a tour without them and has a follow on back to the same post.

Once kids start to arrive, that will be an issue too.

11 yrs ADAF for rated means 33/34 and these issues are realities. That is when you will get Bullet's post of Just one more reason

The flight suit isn't the issue, it was just the last straw on the camel's back. It becomes family first when you are 35 and the BS is now another reason why to leave.

 

[scoutpilot]

Not getting in the mix, just want to give clarification to 2 posts.



No ROTC scholarship pays for room and board, thus to state "FREE" is a fallacy. Many officers come in not only through ROTC, but also OTS. Only an SA grad has a "FREE" education from the perspective of your post Scout, and let's be real they are not the majority.

AFROTC offers every yr scholarships to @ 15-20% of all applicants. DS commissioned AFROTC with a rated slot 3 weeks ago. 13 other cadets got rated, he was the only scholarship cadet. His best friend has 35K+ in loans, so please don't go down this route of "GETTING A FREE EDUCATION" I know for a fact that not every flier in the AF got a free education.

I would like to know as a rated officer what is your time commitment? AF it is 10 yrs after winging, UPT is 1 yr until you wing = 11 yrs. before they can bolt. I believe you are an 07 USMA grad, can you bolt after this 1st operational assignment, or will you need to stay like your AF counterparts until 2018?

An AFA pilot grad that can leave now entered the academy in 1997.

Come back to us when you PCS 2 times in the next 6 yrs., and your Doc wife has had to re-certify in Germany and let's say TX. She has had to re-start her career over and over again. If you never leave your post and she can hang there it is no harm, no foul, but once she has to start her career over again because of you, it will be a marital issue. Even in the very best marriages that fact will be thrown in your face..."I gave up my career/family for you !" If you have a great marriage that comment was stated out of frustration for her own career, if it is not so great it will be a wedge in your life. I have seen both, and than there is the 3rd, AD member does a tour without them and has a follow on back to the same post.

Once kids start to arrive, that will be an issue too.

11 yrs ADAF for rated means 33/34 and these issues are realities. That is when you will get Bullet's post of Just one more reason

The flight suit isn't the issue, it was just the last straw on the camel's back. It becomes family first when you are 35 and the BS isP now another reason why to leave.

Oh, I forgot, you've had it tougher than EVERYONE. Thanks for the reminder. LOL @ 2 times in 6 years.

I'm an '04 grad. This is my 3rd operational assignment after 5 PCSes in 8 years. My wife and I have been together since 2006. We've only lived in the same STATE for 2.5 years of that. I'm 31 next month and my commitment goes through 2015.

Come back to me when you actually know what you're talking about.