Life at senior military school vs SA's

[sprog]

Actually if you go to USMMA you have just as many options as Norwich or VMI and many more then the other four SA. .

I sort of don't like this, and I'll tell you why. Trust me, it has nothing to do with USMMA, which I think is an awesome opportunity. However, it is awesome only for those with an interest in commercial shipping.

I know, you don't have to go into shipping out of KP. You can go into any of the branches, can go to med school, law school, business school, get an MFA in costume design, whatever. I'd point out that grad school opportunites abound for graduates of any of the SMCs and SAs (once the AD obligation ends). My objection to the above sentiment has more to do with the college experience itself than with post-graduate opportunities.

At USMMA, you have to major in a Marine Transportation or Marine Engineering field. There are no history majors, there are no biology majors. A student who goes to USMMA without an interest in shipping, even if it is just one of many options being considered for after graduation, would be an unhappy one. Patentesq points out the Army's Infantry Branch. If I was a kid who was interested in this, and I had no interest in studying commercial shipping, USMA should be the first choice followed by an SMC or traditional ROTC program. USMMA could get you to Army Infantry, but it would not be a pleasant route for someone who did not have an interest in maritime subjects. All USMMA grads spend a year at sea on a commercial ship during their midshipman time. This is not something that a gung-ho Army Infantry type, who wants to study military history, would enjoy.

If, however, a student wants to go into the Army or Marines and serve in the Infantry, but is interested in studying marine transportation/engineering, and the idea of shipping appeals to him, then USMMA would be a good choice. It is very situationally dependent.

I think USMMA is great, mind you, but its purpose is to train Merchant Marine officers. It isn't meant to be a catch-all SA. I think it's great that you can serve in any branch from there, but it is a maritime school first, and that has to be weighed before a potential student considers it for college.

This is just my opinion, but several USMMA grads on this forum would share it (I think).

Also, if a student is set on going active duty in one of the branches and is considering an SA, he really should look to the service-specific ones first. That is, if there is a kid who is dead-set on going into the Navy, has wanted it for many years, USNA is the better choice, as it is the best preparation one can get for service as a naval officer. NROTC or OCS are great too, mind you, but if I wanted a SA experience, and I wanted the Navy, USNA has to be number one. This isn't to say that USMMA won't prepare a student for the Navy, of course it will; however, I would only advise USMMA as an alternative or higher choice than USNA if the student had an interest in commercial shipping. That is, if the student wanted a naval career, I would not advise USMMA unless there was an interest in studying commercial shipping in either the deck officer or engineer fields. For a kid who has that interest, USMMA is great!

 

[havana brown]

Is life at senior military schools worse than the Academy life?

Or are they about the same?

I was just curious.


Anyone out there transferred from a senior military school into a SA and experienced both?

My son is at senior military school and his gf is at a SA. She was a top notch student in high school, 4.8!! While he was a 2.8 student. She had a real hard time at SA. She eventually ended up having pretty good grades, but not the straight A's she was used to in h.s. Her classes were also super hard! At first my son thought he wouldn't do so well. He ended up with grades better than he EVER did in high school, 3.2 for first semester. He has now set goals for himself to do even better.

A huge difference also is that at my son's school it is mixed civilian/military, so he still has the military lifestyle of living in barracks (really dorms) with only other military, drilling, and learning military life, but also to go to classes, chow, and socialize with civilians. This way he feels he gets the best of both worlds. So, it's a little more than just doing ROTC at a regular college, but not as hard core as a SA.

When he interviewed at his school he was told that many students do transfer in from a SA. I would think it happens more this way than from a senior military college into a SA, unless someone doesn't have the grades to get into a SA right away and that is their goal and go to a smc as a stepping stone into a SA.

To answer your original question, based on my son's and his gf's experiences, yes, life at a SA is worse than a smc.

 

[bruno]

Do you mean that you can attend USMMA at Kings Point and then select active duty in the US Army Infantry after graduation?

What about going to med school after Kings Point and then serving your obligation in, say, the Air Force?

Yes- that is true- for example our "Community Liaison" JAMZMOM is the mother of a 2009 USMMA grad who is now an AF intel officer.
However, I am going to echo my fellow Keydet- Sprog and put out a caution here- USMMA is a very specialized Academy that has a primary mission of training merchant mariners. The curriculum includes 1 year at sea broken up into two 6 month splits - which means basically that you have to complete 4 years of college in 3 years . That's a tough haul for anyone- but to do this without having an interest in the primary function of the school is I think to be setting yourself up for failure or at least a very unhappy college experience. If you go to USMMA forum you will find that Jasperdog frequently posts on this subject. Bottom line- I don't think that I would go to USMMA without at least a moderate degree of interest in the Sea as a profession. (That is of course just my opinion) Having said that- if you are interested in the Maritime Industry, or serving in one of the sea services - Kings Point is a real gem. Compared to the other Service Academies, it's little known outside the Industry or the maritime world, but an awesome opportunity.

As far as relative difficulty- I know a bunch of USMA grads and am related to a couple and my son has several high school classmates now at USMA, USNA and USAFA- I think that the "Difficulty" factor is a wash between them and VMI. Frankly VMI is more physical and more physically restrictive than any of those 3. However, the Service Academies require much more summer training than does VMI which requires nothing (demands on your summer vary according to Service ROTC Summer training requirements). Additionally - if you are a Liberal Arts major - the Math requirements at VMI are much less onerous than the Service Academies. (Basically if you start in the Liberal Arts, you can escape with only 2 semesters of math- Calc and Statistics- not so as an engineer though)

 

[tonk002]

From what I've seen and read and with those that I've talked with, the biggest difference between VMI, Norwich or The Citadel and USMA, for example, is the first year experience. The Ratline/Knob year/Rook year is different than anything that I have heard of at USMA, except for Beast, but that is only for six weeks. Personally, I've put VMI at the top of my list of schools to apply to because of the academic piece. Id like to study International Relations or History, and while I can do that at USMA, it would be much more math focused as Bruno said. Having said that, I will probably still apply to USMA.

 

[patentesq]

sprog and bruno: Thanks for your candid posts. My DS rec'd his appointment to USMMA on Monday and was elated. Your views are truly, truly appreciated.

We're still waiting on USMA and ROTC -- time will tell if the Army has any interest in my DS.

This only confirms my belief that students should NEVER jump at the first opportunity that comes along. I continue to be amazed by the folks on SAF who receive appointments and then, shortly thereafter, send in the acceptance form. They think they have wanted nothing else other than the opportunity they have been given. When they become officers, they will learn that this is not how officers (at least good ones) make decisions.

For those of you evaluating between SMCs (in addition to the SAs), it is my assessment that each of the SMCs present largely the same opportunities for active duty military. Nevertheless, I encourage you to dig into the details and resist the temptation to jump at the first SMC that extends an offer of admission. For example, the alumni network at Norwich tends to be stronger in the Northeast. At VMI/Citadel/VWI/North Georgia/VT, etc. the alumni network is more concentrated in the south. For NMMI and Texas A&M, the alumni network is stronger out west. Of course, this regionalization doesn't exist on active duty, because grads are dispersed everywhere (I would expect the maritime academies don't have as much regionalization either, but I could be wrong).

But if you leave the military some day, as most grads ultimately do, you will tend to have better job opportunities in those regions where your alma mater resides. There are other issues like weather, tuition, academic department strengths, etc. that you really should investigate as well.

Don't make a decision until you have properly evaluated everything.

 

[patentesq]

. . . I will probably still apply to USMA . . .

I hope you are talking about the Class of 2016. This has been a six-month ordeal for my DS (he's more persistent than I was at that age).

The deadline on the USMA website of February is NOT like most other schools on the common app that have deadlines of Jan. 1. Rather, the Class at USMA starts filling in August/September.

Hurry up, tonk002!

 

[hockeypals]

How do the Maritime Colleges fit in to this discussion? Are they primarily for only those students who want to study the merchant marine business like USMMA or is it different? My DS was looking at one because of the marine environmental science program. NOAA said they really like the academic program at the Maritime colleges. Also, you apparently can go into the other services also. My DS is just trying to get all the information he can about his options. We are fairly new to all of this.

 

[tonk002]

@patentsq: Yes - 2016! Im a junior now. My mistake!

 

[bruno]

How do the Maritime Colleges fit in to this discussion? Are they primarily for only those students who want to study the merchant marine business like USMMA or is it different? My DS was looking at one because of the marine environmental science program. NOAA said they really like the academic program at the Maritime colleges. Also, you apparently can go into the other services also. My DS is just trying to get all the information he can about his options. We are fairly new to all of this.

The State Maritime Colleges are still focused on licensing of US Merchant Marine deck and engineering officers, but unlike the USMMA students they have some other options to offer in addition to or independent of the licensing programs. These are principally engineering and technology focused colleges- I don't believe that you will be at home if you are a Liberal artist interested primarily in Fine Arts, English etc... but they do have more degree options available to you than does USMMA. Most of them also have very good programs in International Business - (typically with a transportation focus); Environmental Sciences, Environmental and Emergency Management; Facilities Management and Engineering etc...
As far as the military life style: Mass Maritime has 100% of the Cadets enrolled in the Regiment, NY has most of the Cadets in the Regiment, and Maine, Texas and California have regiments which are greater than 1/2 the school. At all of them participation in the regiment is required by the USCG in order to be licensed as a Merchant Marine Officer. The regiments are typically not as demanding as the Service Academies or SMCs like VMI, or Citadel, however they are definitely more restrictive than a civilian college experience. At all of them you can pursue a USN Commission thru either ROTC or the USN- MMR (Merchant Marine Reserve) program. NY and Maine and Texas host (NY) or participate in cross town NROTC programs so you can use an NROTC scholarship at those schools. All Maritime College graduates who are licensed are eligible to be direct commissioned into the USCG thru their Maritime Academy Commissioning program http://www.gocoastguard.com/find-yo...ortunities/programs/maritime-academy-graduate.
NY, Massachusetts and Maine also have the opportunity to be commissioned thru Army ROTC as all participate in AROTC as cross town affiliations.

Finally: Several/most of these schools have an added benefit in that they offer reduced or instate tuition to more than just their home state. I know that Massachusetts and NY both have large regional agreements so that residents in multiple states get very reasonable tuition compared to what a typcial State University offers for out of state students. For example SUNY Maritime offers :

Students from ALABAMA, CONNECTICUT, DELEARE, FLORIDA, GEORGIA, LOUISIANA, MISSISSIPPI, MARYLAND, NEW JERSEY, NORTH CAROLINA, PENNSYLVANIA, RHODE ISLAND, SOUTH CAROLINE, VIRGINIA AND WASHINGTON DC all pay New York State In-region rates

http://www.sunymaritime.edu/About Maritime/FAQ.aspx
Mass Maritime I know is similar.
http://www.maritime.edu/index.cfm?pg=416

In State includes MA,CT,&RI
Regional states include DC,DE,GA,FL,MD,NC,NH,NJ,PA,SC,VA,VT

 

[hockeypals]

Bruno,
Thanks for the information. My son just found out today that he got accepted to SUNY Maritime as a Marine Environmental Science major, and part of the Regiment. If he goes there, he would get the Deck's License so he would be eligible for NOAA or the Coast Guard. He also is applying to Virginia Tech as part of the Corps of Cadets, as an engineering major. He has applications in for Navy and Air Force ROTC, and he applied to the USNA & AFA but didn't get a congressional nomination. He just got his private pilot's license and would like to fly for the military. He just recently found out more about NOAA, and likes the idea of being a scientist and maybe flying for their commissioned corps one day. So, at this point, he has several diverse options and he is trying to decide what he wants to do. It is very hard for a 17-year old! Your information is very helpful and it adds to what we had read on SUNY's website. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to people like me. It is very helpful!

 

[sprog]

Bruno,
Thanks for the information. My son just found out today that he got accepted to SUNY Maritime as a Marine Environmental Science major, and part of the Regiment. If he goes there, he would get the Deck's License so he would be eligible for NOAA or the Coast Guard. He also is applying to Virginia Tech as part of the Corps of Cadets, as an engineering major. He has applications in for Navy and Air Force ROTC, and he applied to the USNA & AFA but didn't get a congressional nomination. He just got his private pilot's license and would like to fly for the military. He just recently found out more about NOAA, and likes the idea of being a scientist and maybe flying for their commissioned corps one day. So, at this point, he has several diverse options and he is trying to decide what he wants to do. It is very hard for a 17-year old! Your information is very helpful and it adds to what we had read on SUNY's website. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to people like me. It is very helpful!

If he is interested in the Coast Guard, why not USCGA? They do not require a congressional nomination.

 

[hockeypals]

Sprog,
After finding out this week that he didn't get a nomination, we talked about applying for CGA (his grades and SAT scores are right around their averages), but he just hasn't had enough time to think about it. He said would have to get everything in within the next 10 days, and he has finals coming up next week for his first semester classes. He didn't want to commit without having more time to think about it. He is intrigued by the idea of both the Coast Guard and NOAA, but I think he has thought about Navy and Air Force so much that now he is just starting to think of those other options. So, he said that he would rather go somewhere that has a variety of options and where he can figure it out over the next couple of years. He said that if he decides on the Coast Guard next year, he could always apply for the academy and transfer. His flight instructor for his pilot's license is a retired AF colonel, and he transferred to the AFA after one year at a regular college, so my DS is comfortable with this as an approach for any of the academies.

 

[bruno]

The State Maritime Colleges are still focused on licensing of US Merchant Marine deck and engineering officers, but unlike the USMMA students they have some other options to offer in addition to or independent of the licensing programs. These are principally engineering and technology focused colleges- I don't believe that you will be at home if you are a Liberal artist interested primarily in Fine Arts, English etc...

After a little more reflection I decided that I may have done a disservice by saying this and pigeon holing schools and students. While the Maritime Academies are primarily oriented toward engineering, technology and sciences, you may very well be a liberal artist at heart. My Dad is a NY Maritime grad and one of his friends at Ft Schuyler was a guy named Edward Villella who made a pretty big mark in his chosen field. The point: you never know where you will wind up regardless of what you start off thinking that you will do.

Edward Villella entered the School of American Ballet at the age of 10. A few years later he interrupted his dance training to concentrate on academics and graduated from the New York Maritime Academy with a B.S. in marine transportation. Edward also got into sports, was lettered in baseball and became a Golden Gloves boxing champion. At the age of 19 he returned to the School of American Ballet and two years later was invited to join New York City Ballet under Balanchine. In one year, Villella became a soloist and in 1960 was promoted to Principal dancer.

Many roles were created on Villella: Tarantella, "Rubies" dance from Jewels and the character of Oberon in A Midsummer Night's Dream. He is probably most known for his interpretation of the 1960 revival of Balanchine's 1929 masterpiece The Prodigal Son. Edward Villella became the first American dancer to perform with the Royal Danish Ballet and is the only American ever to be asked to dance an encore at the Bolshoi Theater. He also danced for President Kennedy's inauguration and through the years for Presidents Johnson, Nixon and Ford.

Mr. Villella was the producer and director for the PBS series "Dance in America" for a year and a half and his CBS television production of Harlequinade in 1975 won him an Emmy award.

Six years were spent as a Board Trustee of the Wolf Trap Foundation for the Performing Arts. From 1981 to 1982, he was a Visiting Artist at the US Military Academy at West Point. Mr. Villella was the Artistic Director of Ballet Oklahoma from 1984 to 1986 and in 1986 he founded the Miami City Ballet. His wife Linda, a former Olympic figure skater, was the founder and director of the Miami City Ballet School. Together they had three children: a son named Roddy and two daughters named Lauren and Crista.

In 1991 Union College established the Edward Villella Fellowship and it was awarded for the first time in May 1996. In 1992, he wrote his autobiography Prodigal Son: Dancing for Balanchine in a World of Pain and Magic which was reissued in 1998 by the University of Pittsburgh Press.

A big year for Mr. Villella was 1997; he saw himself awarded the National Medal of the Arts by President Bill Clinton and he was also named a Kennedy Center Honoree. We can also see him in the 1997 movie Suzanne Farrell: Elusive Muse. He also received the National Society of Arts and Letters Award for Lifetime Achievement Gold Medal, making him only the fourth dance personality to receive this award. Edward has also been a Harvard Visiting Artist in 1999-2000 and received the Kiphuth Fellowship Award from Yale University.

Mr. Villella now serves on the Board of Trustees of the School of American Ballet and is the Artistic Director and Chief Executive Officer of the Miami City Ballet.

http://www.the-ballet.com/villella.php

 

[bruno]

For those who believe that hearing the crack of the bat signifies that winter has been banished- VMI opens it's baseball season today against #10 ranked University of Florida.
Go Keydets!