Lifers vs. Five and Dive

I suppose I should also state that there's no confusion, that my father is a career enlisted soldier, not an Officer, so albeit there is a difference there from the original proposed question, but I feel as though that isn't too far off the mark for the advice he gave to still be valuable.

And sure, I know he likes to be idyllic, but I think he has made a valued point. Just because you don't respect somebody as a person, or even as a leader, doesn't mean you don't have respect for the rank. And even more than that, a respect for the service in which you serve.

But just to reiterate the original post was his words not mine, this one however is all me and my interpretation of that.

I'll leave the rest of you to your discussion now.
 
The moderator wisely moved this to the life after the academy thread because it's really best served by veterans and career officers that have served and have been there and done that. As some posters have mentioned, a lot may start out idealistically as fresh academy graduates thinking that they would do it for the long haul but there are several factors that may sway their outlook once they're in the real military. Those that haven't even made it outside the SA wouldn't have an accurate or helpful perspective.
 
iceman2018 said:
Thanks for the input.
In your opinion, what specific jobs are no longer in demand, also the jobs you think have favorable relevance in the future.
Click to expand...

Couldn't say definitively what's trending now. I was in during the big RIF (reduction in forces), in the mid to late 80's. You'd have to look at what things are most on the chopping block from the cutbacks. For example, the Army just sent the last tanks home from Germany. No more armored divisions in Europe. Bad time to be getting into armor. On the up side, drones and other UAVs are bound to be big, so systems engineering would probably be a good major, and so would computer science, and those career paths will probably be less affected in the future. Once you're in the Academy, you'll probably be able to get more info about the different tracks than you need to make a good decision.
 
usna1985 said:
Probably the single most important factor is family. If the military member is married, is the spouse supportive of a military career (the moves, the deployments, etc.)? If the spouse works outside the home, the couple will need to consider whether the spouse can continue his/her career. If the spouse is also in the military, they need to consider whether they can be stationed together and, if not, whether they can deal with that.

Other reasons are as cited above: desire to do something different than the military, desire not to deploy (whether single or married), desire to make more money, desire to get an advanced degree that is impossible or difficult while in the military, wanting to homestead (stay in one place) . . . and on and on.

BTW, do NOT assume that those who leave the military after 5, 10, etc. years are any less "loyal" to the service in which they served. Many former military types stay active in the Reserves and/or are active in veterans' activities, USNA alumni activities, philanthropy etc. They simply decided to take a different fork in the road.

In the end, everyone gets out. Some simply do it sooner than others.:smile:
Click to expand...

This really rings true and having friends and relatives that have been in uniform, I would not gauge service rendered by virtue of length of service.

I also wonder what other reasons besides dereliction of duty or conduct unbecoming may cut a military career short?
In other words, what would prompt an early forced retirement or discharge for a career officer besides the reasons above?
 
There are two separate issues -- being forced out and not promoting. Main reasons for being forced out include drug use, problems with alcohol (i.e., DUI), sexual harassment, criminal activity, etc. Honestly, it's rare.

It's much more common not to promote -- and as you get more senior, becomes much more likely. Many terrific officers don't get promoted to O-6 and O-5 and, sometimes to O-4. Why not? Many, many reasons. Taking the "wrong" job(s). Annoying the wrong CO. Not standing out among your peers. Not getting the graduate education you need. And on and on.

If you fail to promote twice, you will eventually be forced out -- depends on at what stage of your career and how the military is handling that situation at that time.
 
To add to what usna1985 said, to accelerate downsizing the Marine Corps has started (or started again?) this thing called career designation. Basically, after you've been in your job for a certain amount of time, i.e., not including time that you spent at The Basic School or training for your MOS, all Marine Officers have their performance reviewed by a board.
This Officer Retention board essentially determines whether or not the Marine Corps will "let you" stay in. If you get Career Designation, you can choose to get out at your EAS or stay in. If you fail to Career Designate, you must leave active service after your EAS. The rates do sort of depend on MOS. Highest is (I think) aviation with ~95%. The ground side gets as low as ~55%. It all depends on needs of the Marine Corps.
 
In the "good old days," if you kept your nose clean and did a good job, you could easily make O-5 and stay in for 20 years. Now, not so much. You must do the above and much more -- like excel.:smile:

That said, the military is not unlike the civilian sector -- IOW, don't think it's "easier" on the "outside." It may be somewhat different in terms of what's expected but it's not easier.

In this economy, you must perform to stay, let alone move ahead. That's true wherever you are. The military gives you a great leg up on all of the qualities it takes to succeed -- either within or outside of the military.
 
usna1985 said:
In the "good old days," if you kept your nose clean and did a good job, you could easily make O-5 and stay in for 20 years. Now, not so much. You must do the above and much more -- like excel.:smile:

That said, the military is not unlike the civilian sector -- IOW, don't think it's "easier" on the "outside." It may be somewhat different in terms of what's expected but it's not easier.

In this economy, you must perform to stay, let alone move ahead. That's true wherever you are. The military gives you a great leg up on all of the qualities it takes to succeed -- either within or outside of the military.
Click to expand...

It's harder on the outside. No scheduled pay raise or expected promotions. In right to work states it's even less expected than later ranks.

I think there's more accountability in the military than civilian federal jobs, but moving up in the military, especially junior officer and some senior officer ranks is fairly reasonable to expect. Granted O-6 and above not as much, but it's not any easier in the private sector.
 
How about maintaining physical fitness?
Wasn't that long ago that the head of Air Force 1 detail got discharged because of waistline over limit.
 
usna1985 said:
It's much more common not to promote -- and as you get more senior, becomes much more likely. Many terrific officers don't get promoted to O-6 and O-5 and, sometimes to O-4. Why not? Many, many reasons. Taking the "wrong" job(s). Annoying the wrong CO. Not standing out among your peers. Not getting the graduate education you need. And on and on.
Click to expand...

It was said in my day that 1 O-5 in 10 made O-6, and 1 O-6 in 100 made O-7. That's probably still true. They just need fewer officers in the higher grades. (True of E-7 to E-8 and E-8 to E-9, too.) Taking the wrong job can be a factor, but from what I saw, a lot of people never proactively managed their careers. They'd wait until a job was up, then take whatever seemed most attractive of what was offered to them. A few would start looking around beforehand, find openings or make opportunities, look for schools they could attend, etc., and at least try to manage their careers. Getting held in a job for an extra few months could easily throw a monkey wrench into such plans, but they at least tried, and often succeeded. It can take a lot of effort, but yield a much more rewarding career, IMHO.
 
LTSackett said:
It was said in my day that 1 O-5 in 10 made O-6, and 1 O-6 in 100 made O-7. That's probably still true. They just need fewer officers in the higher grades. (True of E-7 to E-8 and E-8 to E-9, too.) ....
Click to expand...

I'm not really qualified to participate in the main thrust of this thread but I can add this is not so different than the "top of the pryamid" in the private sector, especially in this economy and with all the technology that we have to facilitate communications and collaboration that enables "flatter organizations." I spent 24 years in companies that all ultimately became part of one large multi-national corporation with over 130,000 employees, when I left there six and a half years ago there were ~1,500 director level managers (my view similar in level to O-6's) (~1.5%) and just ~325 Vice President and above (my view similar in level to Flag Rank) (~0.25%). My only point is making it to the highest levels of either civilian or military organizations are not easy tasks and as noted the leadership training one gets at an academy can be testifid to by the number of SA graduates at those levels on "either side of the fence."
 
Last edited:
For those who elected to five and dive, I understand that they have to be in reserve before being really out. Can a reservist reactivate voluntarily?
Can one decide to stay active even if there's no major conflict?
 
bugsy said:
Every 3-4 years on active duty becomes a decision point. You get a new assignment and you and your spouse decide what your going to do, stay in or get out. Until you make colonel then you sign up to take what they give you. Frustration with active duty is usually equally offset by reward. So I find that a wash.
Click to expand...

How so? How are assignments categorized as desirable or undesirable? what would be the dealbreaker? Obviously the Afghanistan and Iraq deployments come to mind but are there other assignments that would make you think of getting out because of location or other reasons? Thanks for your input.
 
I think if a person is deciding their military career, and deciding whether to continue surving or leaving; based on what your next PCS/Assignment is........ Then I'd say that an individual really needs to reaccess why they are in the military in the first place. Not saying everyone should be a lifer. Simply saying that you should EXPECT to love everything about the military, and every place you PCS to; and if the assignment doesn't appeal to you, you'll get out.......... Is a pretty sad way to decide.
 
iceman2018 said:
How so? How are assignments categorized as desirable or undesirable? what would be the dealbreaker? Obviously the Afghanistan and Iraq deployments come to mind but are there other assignments that would make you think of getting out because of location or other reasons? Thanks for your input.
Click to expand...
Largely personal preference. It can be the job assignment, the base or the location. Some people love it, others will hate it.

It isn't necessarily the particular assignment, but the another move that causes people to choose to leave. My Dad chose retirement when my Mom said she wasn't moving again and she didn't think he could PCS with two broken legs.
 
iceman2018 said:
For those who elected to five and dive, I understand that they have to be in reserve before being really out.
Click to expand...

That's "inactive reserves" which has a very different feel from "reserves." Inactive reserves don't drill, wear a uniform, report to anyone, or do anything. I'm pretty sure I'm technically "inactive reserves" for a short time longer.
 
Interesting.
As a lifer, one gets pension.
What does an " inactive reserve" such as yourself get?
 
iceman2018 said:
Interesting.
As a lifer, one gets pension.
What does an " inactive reserve" such as yourself get?
Click to expand...

Anyone after 20 years gets a pension.

Inactive service is just an obligation for academy graduates. For the Coast Guard Academy it was 5 years active duty and 3 or 4 years inactive reserves.

You don't "get" anything, and I certainly don't want anything. You're not actually in. I've received my DD-214 and I'm out like a light.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Anyone after 20 years gets a pension.

Inactive service is just an obligation for academy graduates. For the Coast Guard Academy it was 5 years active duty and 3 or 4 years inactive reserves.

You don't "get" anything, and I certainly don't want anything. You're not actually in. I've received my DD-214 and I'm out like a light.
Click to expand...

ROTC people who leave at the end of the AD obligation also have to do a few years in IRR. Eventually, you'll get a discharge certificate from the Reserve branch. As described by other posters, IRR means you fill out a form once a year and let the service department know where you are (and how to get a hold of you in case of WWIII). It's not a very onerous responsibility, and you get $0 for doing it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top