Marine pilot vs Naval pilot

Old Navy BGO said:
I've also heard that both USN and Marine aviation are struggling for flight hours, and fly at substantially lower rates than we did in the 80-90s.
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Is this just because the older aircraft are too costly to maintain at high flight hours? I wonder if this will be different when the F-35s start rolling out in greater numbers, although I am sure they aren't anywhere close to cheap to fly either.
 
usna1985 said:
On the flip side, I know a recent grad who had a USMC aviation "contract" (that was his service assignment) but got to TBS and decided he wanted to be a ground Marine -- wanted to lead troops more directly, so to speak. They let him do it and he was happy. The story proves the point that you first want to be certain about being in the USMC.
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Our kid is currently at TBS and is considering doing the same. He sees the aviation contract as a backup plan. Will he be able to secure his preferred MOS before giving up his contract?
 
Usually not. They drop their air contract they compete with everyone else. I had a platoon mate who dropped his air contract for ground. He wanted combat arms. I knew when we got grouped together it wasn’t going to be good for him. He got his 12th pick, it was my 6th. There are plenty of air contracts who contemplate this. I would say to think about the opportunities outside of flight school too. They always need FACs and air officers in grunt units. I had a few buddies even complete IOC go to flight school, do their flying tour then go this route. One spent a lot of time in the Raider units. There are lots of opportunities, but the risk is there that he could get an MOS not high on his list.
 
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You'll spend a bit more time in training if you choose Marine aviation, as you'd have to go to TBS in Quantico following graduation from USNA and THEN the entirety of flight school. Marines have a larger variety of helicopters and, unless you're one of the few lucky souls that gets chosen for jets or C-130's, you're most likely going to be a helo/V-22 pilot.
 
OtB said:
Our kid is currently at TBS and is considering doing the same. He sees the aviation contract as a backup plan. Will he be able to secure his preferred MOS before giving up his contract?
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No he will not. Obviously I am biased, but I would never recommend giving up an air contract. There are no guarantees and the grass is usually not greener.
 
Is there a much higher likelihood that you will not get jets (i.e. get helos) if you go Marine aviation vs Navy aviation?
 
Gotta start that plan to get all that fixed wing multi-engine time early!

Both the Navy and Marine Corps have a lot of helos (which is how we have so many pilots), so the chances are moderate.

Don't forget about the non fixed wing jet communities either. MPRA and E-2s on the Navy side and KC-130s on the Marine side.

Sterotypically, Helo guys in the Marines get more respect than Marine Jet guys, and Jet guys in the Navy get more respect than Navy helo guys. Blah blah blah it's a generalization that's been around a long time . . . take it with a grain of salt.

People will tell you your platform will grow on you . . .
 
Hurricane12 said:
No he will not. Obviously I am biased, but I would never recommend giving up an air contract. There are no guarantees and the grass is usually not greener.
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He kept his air contract, but mentioned he may have the opportunity to do IOC before flight school. Is this common and how does it affect career progression?
 
It’s not unheard of. IOC is only around 12 weeks long (unless it’s changed). And I am sure you have heard how long waits can be for certain parts of flight school. Also, IOC, depending on when they have classes, can sometimes use the extra bodies. We had around 10 flight contracts do this prior to flight school. Not sure how they are doing things these days, but it usually goes down as a secondary MOS. Most of those who did this had eventually did tours as FACs for their non-flying tours. Honestly how and if this impacts anything will depend on what his airframe is, what he wants to do with his career and a million other factors that are yet to unfold. I am sure hurricane can provide the most Current info and impact.
 
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IOC prior to flight school ebbs and flows. My peer group did not have any spots for it, but guys who were a year or so after me did. It has no influence on career progression, going to a FAC tour, etc. There are pros and cons to it: people who go think it's a good experience, but lots of people get hurt at IOC, which can jeopardize flight status. The guys I know who've done it don't regret going, but it doesn't really matter for anything. I also don't know anyone who regrets not going.
 
The Infantry Officer Course has a pretty high washout compared to a lot of other MOS schools and as @Hurricane12 notes, lots of people get hurt at IOC. Not sure how air contract guys are handled, but it used to be that if you washed out of IOC you were assigned an MOS based on the needs of the USMC at the time. I am pretty sure that some of the Officers waiting on a school start date end up working at TBS with the OPFOR teams and other things like that.
 
USMCGrunt said:
The Infantry Officer Course has a pretty high washout compared to a lot of other MOS schools and as @Hurricane12 notes, lots of people get hurt at IOC. Not sure how air contract guys are handled, but it used to be that if you washed out of IOC you were assigned an MOS based on the needs of the USMC at the time. I am pretty sure that some of the Officers waiting on a school start date end up working at TBS with the OPFOR teams and other things like that.
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I have a little insight on this. I’ve stated more than once on this site I live just through the woods from Camp Barrett and I not only work out occasionally at Ramer gym, but I went with a fairly recent CO to his first combat deployment. He was CO when my son was a student there, he he he.

IOC students have more than one chance to pass. Failures are due to injuries, land nav hiccups, and hike drops. Lieutenants are kept onboard and stand watch, work on MCMAP, etc, but mainly work on the discrepancies that led to their drop. If they don’t pass on the second try, they wander around again aimlessly like an amorphous ameba until an MOS is assigned and orders are cut to the schoolhouse.
 
Matty, Hurricane12 is definitely your best resource on here. Reread her post.

I'm currently finished with helo advanced, but haven't reported to the FRS yet, so I haven't seen the point at which most of that divergence in culture occurs. Many of my closest friends in flight school are Navy and Coast Guard. Our training is nearly identical, with the exception of Navy and Coast Guard doing a couple of sims/flights introducing search and rescue stuff that Marines don't touch. There are some intangible differences that largely come down to instructors. For example, especially as I got closer to winging, it seemed Marine IPs would be more likely to take an interest in what platform I wanted due to me being a Marine as well.

Other than that, Marines have a lot more expectations put on them to maintain their fitness while in flight school. I've seen several Ensigns/LTJGs pack on the pounds in flight school who would probably get pulled aside and talked to pretty sternly if they were Marines.

Regardless of whether you go Navy Air or Marine Air though, I can't think of a single aviator who would have gone a different route. It's a pretty cool job with some pretty cool people.
 
pilot2b said:
Other than that, Marines have a lot more expectations put on them to maintain their fitness while in flight school. I've seen several Ensigns/LTJGs pack on the pounds in flight school who would probably get pulled aside and talked to pretty sternly if they were Marines.
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They make excellent C-2 pilots.
 
Hurricane12 said:
This is a simple question with a slightly complicated answer. The simple response is that Marine pilots are in the Marine Corps and Navy pilots are in the Navy, but that's not necessarily helpful to you. Warning: long post to follow.
-Both attend the same schools to winging, with Marines taking a 6 month detour to The Basic School prior to showing up to Pensacola. Depending on the needs of the services, Marine or Navy requirements may be stricter to pass different phases of flight school. For example, during the height of the Iraq/Afghanistan Wars, the Marines were apparently taking everybody with a pulse and pushing them through, but when I was in flight school Marines were required to get higher scores than Navy students throughout (to include higher grade requirements for jets, etc.).
During flight school, the playing field is pretty level. There are a mix of Navy/Marine students and IPs (plus Coasties) and generally every phase is relatively "service blind." Marine and Navy students will often be paired together for flights and so on. There are some subtle cultural differences between Marine/Navy studs but for the most part everybody gets along. Post selection and wings at the end of flight school is where the difference really starts.

For life in the fleet: I will lead with I am biased and have a certain opinion because I am a Marine. While there are things I definitely don't like about my job, I think I'm happier than I would be in the Navy. My Navy friends hear me talk about the Marine Corps and Thank God they went Navy. So, your mileage may vary.

The simplest, and not most accurate, way to think about this is that Marine aviation exists to support ground Marines. Naval Aviation exists to support the fleet and its strategic objectives. So for example while the Marine Corps and Navy both fly helicopters, for example, Marine helicopters train to shooting missiles/rockets/guns in support of ground forces as their primary mission while Navy helicopters train to antisubmarine or surface ship warfare as their big focus.
Marines will generally be collocated or close to the ground units they support, while Navy units will be dis-aggregated across the coast at helicopter or jet bases and come together as an air wing for deployment.

Who gets the most flight time ebbs and flows. I',m pretty sure I get more (and more interesting) hours than my Navy helicopter counterparts, we both get more than most of the guys flying jets in either service, and everybody gets less than the people who fly the big multi-engine aircraft. The "Marines get the worst stuff" is a bit of a misnomer these days. We definitely have struggles with readiness and budget, but the tide is turning and the aircraft in most communities are pretty new with a few exceptions.

The biggest cultural difference in my mind is that in the Navy each of the big communities is considered relatively equal. Everybody knows that everybody else has an important part to play, whether they drive a submarine, a surface ship, or a helicopter, and separate career paths are considered valid. People in the Navy seem to understand better that different communities require different things and it is expected of you to become a tactical expert in fighting your aircraft/ship/whatever over your knowledge of how the whole Navy operates.
In the Marine Corps, people outside the AirWing don't necessarily "get it" and aviation can become a kind of second-class community among officers. Marine Air exists to support the grunt and we love doing it but that comes with the knowledge that our needs are not necessarily understood by the higher headquarters. The non-flying job burden is generally higher in the Marine Corps than in the Navy and you are expected to be a jack of all trades and master of everything. Your quality of life will be lower. But, ultimately, I find it incredibly rewarding. When I deployed, I knew that if we went to combat (we didn't) I wouldn't be shooting for some anonymous dude on the radio, it would be to support the guy who lives across the hall from me. I love leading Marines and think my helicopter mechanics are some of the finest, hardest working Americans out there.

Both will have their pain outside of the cockpit after an initial flying billet of 3-5 years, or maybe more. In the Navy, that comes with tours to the Carrier Staff. In the Marine Corps, that normally comes as a tour as a Forward Air Controller (FAC) or Air Officer with a grunt unit, which is generally considered a rewarding, if difficult, tour.

As an Academy grad I obviously had a choice between Navy and Marine Air and I went Marine with no regrets but it's not for everyone.

Best,

gun (wo)man Capt Hurricane
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I realize this was a few years ago, but I'm currently weighing my aviation options and would love to hear more about what it's like in the Marines.
I'm currently enlisted in the Army and was sorely disappointed when I went through basic training in 2020 - they've loosed up every standard imaginable. No discipline. No guidelines. No respect. Low standards. It was maddening. Anyways, I'm putting a period at the end of this enlistment and wanting to go the Officer route to be a pilot.
I'm just wondering what Marine life is like on the family time side.
 
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