Million Student March

You pretty clearly seemed to be sharing rather than judging, Kyguardmom, even if you may have worded some of it imperfectly. There was one line within many about cocktail parties, which was, I'll point out, initially brought up by Momba.

Actually, I never brought up cocktail parties. I brought up parents I knew who were ashamed of their child's choice of profession. This was in response to another's observation about attitude to trades and the message that "college is the be all end all."

I suggest you reread.

I am done with you and this discussion.
 
Long thread, and I will admit that I haven't read every post, so please forgive me if I restate something that's already been said.

My mother is German. In Germany you take tests after "high school" to determine if you can go to a university. Your scores had to be good enough. If not, you go to a trade school (for lack of a better term). My mom was not the best of students, so she went to a trade school and became a bookkeeper. I don't know if they still do it this way - I'll have to ask my relatives in Germany. I do know that 2 of my cousins went to a university (journalist & linguist), 3 learned trades (airline attendant, bookkeeper, paramedic) and one who's too lazy to use his trade and has come up with any and all excuses and is on government assistance. He actually had a job at Merck and decided not to show up for work. So, even in countries with "free education", there are caveats and your place has to be earned.

It concerns me that we have this huge drive to push all students to college. Why do we do this? It makes no sense. My sister has a college education and has never used it (accountant, not some fluff useless degree). She would have preferred to become a flight attendant and travel the world, but felt pressured to get a degree. A missed opportunity.

Then I have to ask, why is tuition rising so quickly? Before we start talking about taxpayers paying for this, let's find out the answer to that question first. Shouldn't we first look at regulating those costs before we throw taxpayer money at it? Let's face it, universities are businesses first and foremost. Aren't we talking about "bailing" them out if government makes those payments? Ok, that may be simplistic, but it's my view and I own it. Even so, if we're honest about it, these businesses will just continue to raise tuition if they don't have to worry about who pays.

Oh, the Pandora's box that gets opened when you dig deeper.

I guess in short, let's reduce the costs of the universities before we put more burdens on the taxpayer (and you're just deluding yourself if you think its only the 1% who will pay.)
 
Long thread, and I will admit that I haven't read every post, so please forgive me if I restate something that's already been said.

My mother is German. In Germany you take tests after "high school" to determine if you can go to a university. Your scores had to be good enough. If not, you go to a trade school (for lack of a better term). My mom was not the best of students, so she went to a trade school and became a bookkeeper. I don't know if they still do it this way - I'll have to ask my relatives in Germany. I do know that 2 of my cousins went to a university (journalist & linguist), 3 learned trades (airline attendant, bookkeeper, paramedic) and one who's too lazy to use his trade and has come up with any and all excuses and is on government assistance. He actually had a job at Merck and decided not to show up for work. So, even in countries with "free education", there are caveats and your place has to be earned.

It concerns me that we have this huge drive to push all students to college. Why do we do this? It makes no sense. My sister has a college education and has never used it (accountant, not some fluff useless degree). She would have preferred to become a flight attendant and travel the world, but felt pressured to get a degree. A missed opportunity.

Then I have to ask, why is tuition rising so quickly? Before we start talking about taxpayers paying for this, let's find out the answer to that question first. Shouldn't we first look at regulating those costs before we throw taxpayer money at it? Let's face it, universities are businesses first and foremost. Aren't we talking about "bailing" them out if government makes those payments? Ok, that may be simplistic, but it's my view and I own it. Even so, if we're honest about it, these businesses will just continue to raise tuition if they don't have to worry about who pays.

Oh, the Pandora's box that gets opened when you dig deeper.

I guess in short, let's reduce the costs of the universities before we put more burdens on the taxpayer (and you're just deluding yourself if you think its only the 1% who will pay.)


It's funny because the question has been asked by many on this topic. Why? Why has the cost of college tuition risen at such an astronomical rate - higher than even health care in the United States.

I've 'googled' it. And there is wealth of articles about it. But no single answer. Some say because universities are spending so much on infrastructure. Some say it's because administrative costs have risen so much. Some say because someone is making a lot of money on student loans.

I don't know. Maybe some combination thereof. But I believe it is so very significant, because of the impact of this generation of our kids.

How impactful? Just small clues... like a recent change in mortgage loans. They used to exclude/defer student loan debt to qualify people for mortgages. They will no longer do that (and probably rightly so). So a majority of these kids can't buy a home. And that reverberates throughout our economy.

I think it is a big deal, and should not be blamed on the victims - our kids.
 
I do think cb's article highlights one of the issues, which is an explosion in 'administrative' costs from departments that include things like diversity initiatives. The creation of deputy assistant VPs for finance, or student affairs, or real estate development, etc. certainly are bearing a lot of cost that didn't previously exist.

I think this quote from USAFA83gradwife gets at much of it:

Let's face it, universities are businesses first and foremost.

Universities didn't used to operate like businesses, and now they do. Brown's a good example, actually -- it and it's cohort sit on these massive endowments and barely spend them down (one of the reasons the diversity initiative isn't that big a deal at Brown -- their $3.2 billion endowment made a 16.1% return last year). They've become cash hoarders.

How did that become a reasonable way for a non-profit educational institution to operate? Personally, as an alum of a university with a $25 billion endowment that barely spends any of the interest each year, I'm in favor of revising the non-profit guidelines for universities to force them to spend down their endowment interest and/or pay taxes on it. I think that Yale could, for instance, use some of its largesse to underwrite tuition at the local public colleges. Or something, anything, that works toward the civic good. It's insane that they're racking up billions a year in interest, not paying any taxes on it, and still charging tuition. It incenses me, and seems entirely at odds with the purported missions of these institutions. They're becoming hedge funds with a school attached. What the heck do they need that kind of money for?

I do think both cb and Jcleppe have it right -- the availability of federally-backed loans has helped create the problem, especially without according oversight of where those loan dollars were going. There are other factors too, but I think the insanity of the loan system -- public and private -- is a huge part. There hasn't been a lot of motivation for the schools to keep their costs down. Instead, they want to increase enrollment. And until recently, they didn't even care about completion rates!

So how do we turn that around? Now that all of these people have gone to college -- now that the seats in colleges exist, and the presumption in the hiring marketplace is that a college degree is needed for all kinds of things (not rightly, just observationally -- it's there in the hiring descriptions) -- how do we re-orient colleges toward offering affordable higher education options that prepare people to meet the entry-level requirements for jobs w/o being saddled with debt? And without, as Kyguardmom says, blaming the very kids who are stuck in this terrible system we've constructed. That's the only thing I'm interested in.

Though it might seem really counter-intuitive to some people, states like Georgia that have offered tuition remission to state residents who meet certain standards seem to have a model that could be used more broadly. In no small part b/c it takes the 'loan' process out of the mix. By doing so, it loosens the grip that the loan providers have on higher ed finance. The public university has gone back to actually acting in the public interest. I think that's a good thing. When I think of 'free' education, that's what I think of.

Momba -- sorry that I misremembered your post. For some reason I thought Kyguardmom was referring to "cocktail parties" b/c it had been cited in a previous post. I must've been wrong. I know you weren't advocating for that kind of conversation, and I just thought it was used in that post as a reference to what someone else had said with a rhetorical flourish; I genuinely didn't mean to misattribute.
 
So the question becomes: how do we fix the problem? I'm of a mind to think that managing down the profit-motive of higher ed -- at least partially -- could be a piece of the puzzle. I'm well aware that other people might disagree with that b/c of fundamental beliefs in how to manage structural problems. That's an argument worth having.

But this whole -- snobbery, entitlement, lazy kids, women's studies & ceramics majors -- is a distraction from the actual issues at hand.

We can't fix the problem. Some problems cannot be fixed and more we try to fix it more broken it gets. As much as we think we have evolved, we still follow our basic instincts.

Something will give and more than likely it will be students and/or the society (i.e. some sort of financial crisis caused by college debt). As long as there are parents and students willing to pay or borrow to pay, the system will not change. Based on human nature, it will take enlightened parents, kids, and/or kids to reach a conclusion that an expensive college education is not for everyone.

I like to think I am a rational person - I am not going into debt to pay for my kids college education and I will make sure my kids understand the consequences of college debt if they decide to borrow to attend college. I can also say both my wife and I are successful with public education and paying for multiple degrees on our own. I have saved enough to fully paid for my kids' college education if they attend my state public university. Call it vanity but I am not sure what I will do if my child tells me "I am not going to college" or "I got into an ivy school but I didn't get any financial aid."

This is why I think that any change won't happen from the top. We have been brainwashed to believe that college education is one of those things we must have.
 
I like to think I am a rational person - I am not going into debt to pay for my kids college education and I will make sure my kids understand the consequences of college debt if they decide to borrow to attend college.
:rockon:

Our kids were military brats. Our DD resented us as a rising junior because Bullet retired from the AF in the summer of her sophomore yr, and we moved to another state.
~ So much so, she said to us, our closest friend (15 yrs AF too) would allow her to live with them until she graduated....she didn't realize that it was good cop/bad cop. It was never happening,

NCST is a great state college. However, VT is too. We flat out said if you get enough merit from NCST to be the same for IS VT, than fine, but we are not paying OOS to go to a college that is on the same level.

This is our budget.

Here is what I am walking away with right now.

These students that decided to do the march were failed by their parents.
My reasons:
1. Parents egos create the problem
~ I am a failure as a parent, if my kid does not attend a 4 yr college regardless of the cost.
~~ Colleges know this, and take advantage of this fact.
2. Parents do not sit their kids down regarding payback.
~ It is like the stock Imarket..paper only. They don't get the difference between how the loan works. One type is where the interest starts before they graduate, another is when they graduate.
~~ This will mean alot when they graduate.
3. They do not use GOOGLE.
~ That one link where students said... major in German at college made me scream in my cranium ...and the folks thought this a wise decision as a major?

Kids are kids! Parents that have been in the workforce and allow their kids to go in debt are the REAL PROBLEM.
 
I get what you're saying MemberLG, but I'm not yet resigned to just waiting for the bubble to burst. I feel like there must be a way to manage the explosive costs down.Though, of course, who knows.

I can also say both my wife and I are successful with public education and paying for multiple degrees on our own. I have saved enough to fully paid for my kids' college education if they attend my state public university.

With the above quote, I'd just like to point out that the vast majority of kids do still go to public schools and the major difference is that now they can't pay for the degrees on their own. Not because of laziness, but because the costs have exploded so enormously -- and especially b/c this has happened simultaneous to the stagnation of US wages. The media income for a family of four is currently ~$50,000, which makes the average cost of a year at a CC somewhere north of 10% of a family's take-home wages. A year at the local public 4-year (assuming the student commutes) is somewhere between 15 and 40% of a family's take home income per year. That's nuts.

It sounds like you were prudent and are going to be prudent again with your kids. I think both of those are the ideal. But for a family of less means and/or a kid whose parents couldn't or didn't save, man, they're looking at diminished opportunities. Will they survive? Yes. Does it make sense that in a country where our main economic edge comes from the information/tech/creative/intellectual economies we're making higher ed cost-prohibitive for a large swath of the upcoming generation? Not really.
 
A year at the local public 4-year (assuming the student commutes) is somewhere between 15 and 40% of a family's take home income per year. That's nuts.

What's nuts is you and the million student marchers who continue to perpetuate this fallacy.

No one student from a family of four with a household income of $50K pays those numbers.

Several of us have given numerous examples of schools where kids from those families pay no tuition and in some case, not one fricking penny for anything.

Show me the public university where the $50k family pays more than $5k in tuition after Pell, scholarships and grants.

If you didn't realize it by this time, most of the folks on this forum are parents of kids who worked their a**es off to get an xROTC scholarship or admission to an SA and then worked their a**es off to hold on to those scholarships. Some joined ROTC without a scholarship and bet on the come, like Kinnem's DS and my DS's girlfriend. Unlike, the students mentioned above, if our DS's and DD's mess up, they pay it all back. It's not a grant and it's really even a scholarship. It's a contract. A legal contract.

When they graduate and commission (hopefully), then they go where they are told for the next five years. I'd love to see one of those NYU'ers in the video getting off the bus at Ft. Sill or Ft. Polk in the middle of Summer or Ft. Drum in the middle of Winter.
 
But for a family of less means and/or a kid whose parents couldn't or didn't save, man, they're looking at diminished opportunities. Will they survive? Yes. Does it make sense that in a country where our main economic edge comes from the information/tech/creative/intellectual economies we're making higher ed cost-prohibitive for a large swath of the upcoming generation? Not really.

I think our fundamental differences are two things - (1) how much opportunities should be available to the future generation and (2) what roles does the society at large play in creating those opportunities?

It is a false dichotomy to frame the question as a cost-prohibitive higher ed doesn't make sense for an advanced economy. I would argue that the information/tech/creative/intellectual economies need less highly paid workers. I would also argue that the number of jobs that require higher ed is based on demand, not on supply. When there is more supply than demand, the supply side loses. The current market determines the worth of a degree, not what we think it should be or what historically a degree was worth.

A big difference between no opportunities vs. "diminished" opportunities. There are differences in available opportunities between a kid from a family with more means and another kid from a family with less means. I would argue that this is how the society works and should work. Myself and my wife work hard to ensure our and our children's future. If my childern's are going to have the same opportunities regardless what I do, why am I saving for their college?
 
In regards to the huge increase in college costs, I blame the Bankruptcy Reform Law of 2005. It made student loans impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. When lenders knew that no matter how much they loaned students the debt HAD to be repaid, no matter what, they began loaning everyone whatever they asked for. Colleges picked up on this and jacked up their costs - and students kept paying! So they jacked up prices more and more and more.

It's creating a massive bubble in student loan debt that is having dramatic impact on the economy. Young grads in their 20s and early 30s aren't buying houses, condos, new cars, TVs, etc like they used to, even if they have good jobs, because they too much in debt paying off their 4 years of college.

This kind of debt doesn't exist in any other industrialized nation. Its a threat to the national economy.
 
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