Money Magazine's 2024 Rankings

vmi1991fromva said:
Math. Removing scholarship limits and increasing roster sizes is not sustainable for non-major college athletics, especially VMI. VMI already does not fully fund its sports teams. If you look at their rosters, it's mostly Virginia kids taking advantage of in-state tuition. If you look at baseball, a sport that VMI does pretty good in, scholarships go from 11.7 to potentially 34. Football potentially goes up from 85 full scholarships (out-of-state) to 105 (with partial scholarships as an option). With NIL not applicable, the net effect will be more club or non-scholarship sports, as the college allocates more funds to certain sports over others. Title 9 will also play a role as will the transfer portal, which only works one way for VMI. The bright side is that VMI has a pretty strong club sport program with boxing and rugby headlining. They even have a hockey team.
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I guess while this change may help the big schools get better, my view would be that we are so far removed from those big schools in SOCON that it won’t matter too much? We’ll continue losing a lot just like we have before…against the same small time teams that recruit from a different pool than the big boys.
Personally, I’ve always thought we should be D3, so I hope you’re right, but I don’t see how this *financially* forces us to switch…VMI leadership has already shown that being non-competitive is not grounds for moving Divisions.
 
I guess that’s my point. There will be more tiers now. And scholarship limits were better for VMI than larger roster limits. So VMI will go to an even lower tier with other colleges is my guess. They dropped golf and tennis with women admissions because of title 9. More sports will go to club or non-scholarship with this change. Again, my guess on the financial reality. Doesn’t matter what Winns says. Coach from UR told me he’ll be a club sport in 5 years.
 
vmi1991fromva said:
Math. Removing scholarship limits and increasing roster sizes is not sustainable for non-major college athletics, especially VMI. VMI already does not fully fund its sports teams. If you look at their rosters, it's mostly Virginia kids taking advantage of in-state tuition. If you look at baseball, a sport that VMI does pretty good in, scholarships go from 11.7 to potentially 34. Football potentially goes up from 85 full scholarships (out-of-state) to 105 (with partial scholarships as an option). With NIL not applicable, the net effect will be more club or non-scholarship sports, as the college allocates more funds to certain sports over others. Title 9 will also play a role as will the transfer portal, which only works one way for VMI. The bright side is that VMI has a pretty strong club sport program with boxing and rugby headlining. They even have a hockey team.
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Totally agree. For most small colleges, D1 and even D2 is becoming impractical with the Portal syphoning off players. This is especially true for small schools like VMI and Citadel. The Portal has not helped, but has actually hurt Citadel athletics. The grad students transferring in have for the most part, either been no better than Cadets in the same position, or worse. And it doesn’t help coaches develop players over 3 years. Just as important is the loss of promising athletes after their first year. The promising athletes are all going to putting their names in the Portal, which is especially disappointing for coaches.
 
glen said:
For most small colleges, D1 and even D2 is becoming impractical with the Portal syphoning off players. This is especially true for small schools like VMI and Citadel.
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In this regard, VMI with just 1500 cadets is FAR different from The Citadel’s nearly 4,000 mix of students. Hear what you’re saying about the quality of your transfer portal grad-student athletes today, but it has been fruitful for y’all to bring in “ringers” in previous years. I’d bet your recruiters are trying to recruit better grad students, no doubt!
The Citadel and VMI are way different in this regard. VMI, Wofford, and PC are typically the smallest NCAA D1 schools in the country.
 
VMI2017+3 said:
Personally, I’ve always thought we should be D3, so I hope you’re right, but I don’t see how this *financially* forces us to switch…VMI leadership has already shown that being non-competitive is not grounds for moving Divisions.
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Agree! Would like to see VMI go DII or III. Today for example, VMI (with 1500 cadets) is playing William and Mary (with 9,500 students). But maybe there’s an upset coming…🤣
 
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No upset and no surprise in the outcome. Also, no surprises last weekend VMI playing Georgia Tech! However, there were some plays that would’ve been spectacular on ESPN‘s blooper reels!🤣
VMI fans may want the move to Div III sooner than later!
 
ddiamond said:
No upset and no surprise in the outcome. Also, no surprises last weekend VMI playing Georgia Tech! However, there were some plays that would’ve been spectacular on ESPN‘s blooper reels!🤣
VMI fans may want the move to Div III sooner than later!
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Hey, The Citadel beat DII North Greenville 54-0 last weekend and the entire Corps was given an overnight to celebrate! I think it's been quite a few years since the Bulldogs were 2-1. Prior to this year's opening win over Charleston Southern, they had lost 19 straight games! They are obviously more competitive this year, but they have their ass whooping from Clemson on the schedule for later in the fall.

The week vs. Mercer looks like a tough road test, but I'm hoping they can pull out another victory next weekend when I am down for Parents Weekend against East Tennessee.
 
Good luck. A win against Mercer is more likely for y’all with a larger Corps and the additional Citadel grad student players. I doubt VMI stands an chance!🤔
And Good luck with Clemson!
 
ddiamond said:
Good luck. A win against Mercer is more likely for y’all with a larger Corps and the additional Citadel grad student players. I doubt VMI stands an chance!🤔
And Good luck with Clemson!
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Yeah, The Citadel probably has about 2,500 cadets, plus another 1,200 or so grad students and online undergrads who started at other schools and are completing their degrees. This subject gets beaten around a lot, and while I am sure being able to get those fifth-year rentals is helpful, The Citadel simply isn't going to recruit the type athlete that would have opportunities at a major or even mid-major program.

Anyway, all I know about the new football coach is what I read in the Game Notes for this week. He's in his second season (was winless in his first), is a former cadet-athlete who played four years at The Citadel and later served as D coordinator on the coaching staff before moving on. Most recently prior to returning to take over at his alma mater, he spent 7 years in the NFL working as a coach in various capacities. It seems he really has a passion for The Citadel/Charleston and "coming back home" to help restore the program's competitiveness. The Citadel also touts that as a former cadet-athlete, he understands the rigors of balancing both responsibilities and they believe that will help him lead the team. It certainly can't hurt.
 
Are there any former Clemson players enrolled in Citadel's night school playing on Citadel's football team this year? Thought I saw an article about that somewhere...
For them it'll be cool to see some of their former teammates.
 
pa-outdoorsman said:
If so they all stink!
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Not necessarily, but with a 99% acceptance rate they might not be the smartest.
Some are probably very good athletes and if Citadel can bring night students who still have NCAA eligibility into their sports programs, why not? They've done it for a while, just not a lot of people know about it...
Today, the football team has players from Northern Illinois, Western Carolina, Jacksonville State, Newberry, Coastal, Presbyterian, Campbell, Liberty, Rhodes College, and that's just to name a few... (didn't see Clemson, but maybe I missed it) https://citadelsports.com/sports/football/roster
The basketball team has night students from Florida State, Wisconsin, WPI, University of Montevallo, and Lipscomb College. https://citadelsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster Didn't look into their other sports, but they are definitely there.
If they all stink, they probably wouldn't be on scholarship and still playing Citadel sports.
 
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BurLap08 said:
Not necessarily, but with a 99% acceptance rate they might not be the smartest.
Some are probably very good athletes and if Citadel can bring night students who still have NCAA eligibility into their sports programs, why not? They've done it for a while, just not a lot of people know about it...
Today, the football team has players from Northern Illinois, Western Carolina, Jacksonville State, Newberry, Coastal, Presbyterian, Campbell, Liberty, Rhodes College, and that's just to name a few... (didn't see Clemson, but maybe I missed it) https://citadelsports.com/sports/football/roster
The basketball team has night students from Florida State, Wisconsin, WPI, University of Montevallo, and Lipscomb College. https://citadelsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster Didn't look into their other sports, but they are definitely there.
If they all stink, they probably wouldn't be on scholarship and still playing Citadel sports.
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Well my point is The Citadel is not particularly competitive in athletics. There are a couple exceptions but by and large the teams are also rans in low level D1 athletics. So, to the extent athletes are transferring to The Citadel it's probably for playing time and not because they were world beaters where they came from.
 
pa-outdoorsman said:
Well my point is The Citadel is not particularly competitive in athletics. There are a couple exceptions but by and large the teams are also rans in low level D1 athletics. So, to the extent athletes are transferring to The Citadel it's probably for playing time and not because they were world beaters where they came from.
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I hear ya, and yet... It is what it is… They’ll have ups and downs like any other college out there, but it’s not a military school. More like a college with a military program.
But then again, this thread is about Money’s rankings, not the citadel’s civilian and military mix!🤣
 
ddiamond said:
I hear ya, and yet... It is what it is… They’ll have ups and downs like any other college out there, but it’s not a military school. More like a college with a military program.
But then again, this thread is about Money’s rankings, not the citadel’s civilian and military mix!🤣
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You crack me up, man! Tell my knob it's not a military school! He lives 24/7 in a military structure. PT, uniform, marching to meals, etc. I think you have an obsession with trying to convince the world The Citadel isn't a "real" military school because they have athlete transfers and grad students. Unless/until you've been there and walked a mile a cadet's shoes, I don't put a whole lot of stock in what you say. The Citadel has a year-long 4th Class system for freshman, it's rigorous and non-cadet students have little to no contact with cadets. You try to make The Citadel sound like some country club and frankly, as a parent who get daily updates on what life is really like there, you sound ill informed.
 
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pa-outdoorsman said:
You crack me up, man! Tell my knob it's not a military school! He lives 24/7 in a military structure. PT, uniform, marching to meals, etc. I think you have an obsession with trying to convince the world The Citadel isn't a "real" military school because they have athlete transfers and grad students. Unless/until you've been there and walked a mile a cadet's shoes, I don't put a whole lot of stock in what you say. The Citadel has a year-long 4th Class system for freshman, it's rigorous and non-cadet students have little to no contact with cadets. You try to make The Citadel sound like some country club and frankly, as a parent who get daily updates on what life is really like there, you sound ill informed.
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It's awesome that you are so connected with your son and his experience at college. It's also understandable that you are proud. It would be great if all parents could be as connected and as proud as you are. There are also other Citadel parents out there who have sons and daughters at the school who are not cadets, but who are enrolled as day or night students, transfer students, online students, or graduate students. They should be just as proud of their Citadel students as you are, right? It doesn't take anything away from your cadet. In researching military school options, I've learned that many of the state military colleges today are schools with military programs and not 100% military schools in the sense of the Service Academies. Doesn't make them lesser institutions. Also, we started down this rabbit-hole partially because someone said "if so they all stink" about transfer student athletes at The Citadel...
I don't think anyone is trying to take anything away from your son's experience in the Corps of Cadets at the school, it's just about The Citadel's mix of cadets and transfer or non-cadet athletes.
 
The Citadel is absolutely a military college in every sense of the word. Our evening graduate/undergraduate program, which has been around since the early 1970's, in no way detracts from our central focus-the South Carolina Corps of Cadets. Unlike Norwich and other SMC's, cadets live a 24/7 lifestyle with other cadets which is similar to VMI. As a matter of fact, I have a classmate that went through knob year and rat year and said the environments at both schools was similar. Certain folks on this board seem obsessed over the fact that The Citadel has an evening non-cadet program and that it is somehow inferior to VMI, which is laughable. More importantly, I hope anyone considering a SMC ignores these unhelpful and silly comments and seeks advice from someone that actually attended one of our 6 fine Senior Military Colleges. During basic training at Parris Island I met some great folks from VMI and Norwich and wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of those places to college applicants. Looking forward to my visit to VMI in 2 weeks to watch the Military Classic of the South!
 
our daughter's experience as a cadet at Norwich was very much a 24/7 cadet lifestyle with other cadets. that was precisely why she chose to go there. I'm not sure why there is an impression that it is not? there are civilian students on campus but other than some overlap during class time, their experiences are quite different.
 
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pa-outdoorsman said:
You try to make The Citadel sound like some country club and frankly, as a parent who get daily updates on what life is really like there, you sound ill informed.
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Totally see your point. Was trying to get this thread back on track to Money’s Rankings and obviously hit a nerve, sorry!
Whether they’re at schools with varied degree programs like Norwich, The Citadel, Texas A&M, etc., these kids are doing their best and they deserve our support! They’re stepping up to serve in a variety of ways and God bless them for that. Again, was trying to get thread back on track, not diminish anyone in any program, anywhere!
 
hopefulhockeymom said:
our daughter's experience as a cadet at Norwich was very much a 24/7 cadet lifestyle with other cadets. that was precisely why she chose to go there. I'm not sure why there is an impression that it is not? there are civilian students on campus but other than some overlap during class time, their experiences are quite different.
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I did not intend for my comments to appear critical towards Norwich, the birthplace of ROTC. Norwich also provided a model that was later copied by both VMI and The Citadel. Congrats to your daughter for choosing the road less traveled.
 
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