Navy QB resigns prior to graduation

rkrosnar said:
I am a big Navy fan, but this is unacceptable. Sounds to me, he wasn't who we thought he was. This is a real black eye for USNA. He can kiss his future good-bye.

RGK
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No that's not true- what he can kiss goodbye is the futre that he expected to have. The guy made some stupid mistakes and is going to pay the price for that. He is not dead, nor is he in jail. If his family were good people before - they are now, and if he is a good guy who got caught up in something that caused him to make a bad error- well now he will have to deal with that.

Folks on this forum are often confused in my opinion. They want to see things as absolute and black and white- and yet nothing short of death is that way. This isn't a blackeye for Navy- the system booted someone who violated the code (and for good or bad- lots of folks at Navy not just football players had opportunities to "remediate" honor offenses with multiple chances). This is a blackeye for this young man, but it's not a black eye for life- it's a failure that he will have to deal with and learn from. I dare say that most of us have made some monumentally stupid and short sighted decisions in our twenties that we would take back if we could, but we also are generally not judged at 50 by what we were at 20.

Now how the heck he gets out from under his debt- that' going to be a big issue for a long time unless they let work it off with enlisted time.
 
bruno said:
Now how the heck he gets out from under his debt- that' going to be a big issue for a long time unless they let work it off with enlisted time.
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+1

Even if it is 100K, where does he come up with that kind of money? The folks? Loans?

I also agree, this is a black eye for him from an emotional point of view, which IMPO will be with him decades longer after he repays his debt/enlistment commitments.

The issue IMPO still comes down to he had a choice...follow NAVY code and place yourself 2nd, or place yourself 1st and the Navy 2nd.

He made a conscious choice to come 1st and take the risks.

Yes, we all have done things as a youth we regret, but did we all do it over and over again? Spit on me once shame on you! Spit on me twice, shame on Me!

I am not saying the reports of 3 X are indeed fact by the Navy, I am saying, 1X is an exception, 3X is a pattern.

Should we, as taxpayers, ignore the fact that he signed on the dotted line back in 08, and than again 2 yrs later knowing the code?

I am not trying to argue the fact he is young, but so are the 18 yos that enlist. Goose meet gander...gander meet goose!
 
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It's certainly a black eye for him, and for the Naval Academy that gave a lost cause that many chances. Yes, each academy MUST get ride of a number of cadets/midshipmen, but there are always those cases of "how many chances are you going to give this guy?"
 
LineInTheSand said:
It's certainly a black eye for him, and for the Naval Academy that gave a lost cause that many chances. Yes, each academy MUST get ride of a number of cadets/midshipmen, but there are always those cases of "how many chances are you going to give this guy?"
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The answer to that question appears to have correlated greatly with his usefulness as an athlete.
 
I've thought he was somewhat of a knucklehead since he got the (well-deserved) taunting penalty that effectively cost Navy the game against Air Force this year. Sorry to hear about the honor issue, although I'm glad he was being held accountable. As a grad, I knew some good people who made mistakes in that department and some folks who just lacked an internalized sense of integrity and finally got caught; I don't know the guy so I don't know which group he falls into.

Good post by Bruno on life's shades of gray.
 
scoutpilot said:
The answer to that question appears to have correlated greatly with his usefulness as an athlete.
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IMO, the correlation factor regarding who occupies the Supe's office would be far stronger. Hurricane12 could correct me if I'm wrong, but overall numbers of Mids being separated seems to be significantly higher now than under previous leadership. Was this Proctor's only offense since the Supe changed? IDK.

I agree that this is a terrible thing for his parents.
 
The reality is; he won't pay back the education. His parent's aren't obligated. He's an adult. He's the only one that the navy can go after. All he has to do is declare bankruptcy or similar financial inability. It's possible he could have to go enlisted, but I would bet my paycheck that he will not pay back the education. It's not possible. You can't force someone to pay $100,000 - $400,000 if they don't have it. And I'm sure he doesn't have it. It will be written off.
 
Christcorp said:
The reality is; he won't pay back the education. His parent's aren't obligated. He's an adult. He's the only one that the navy can go after. All he has to do is declare bankruptcy or similar financial inability. It's possible he could have to go enlisted, but I would bet my paycheck that he will not pay back the education. It's not possible. You can't force someone to pay $100,000 - $400,000 if they don't have it. And I'm sure he doesn't have it. It will be written off.
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For what it's worth, they have payment plans for people who get kicked out so it's paid back over time.
 
That's a very long payoff. Not going to happen. If he was getting kicked out because of a crime and it was part of a punishment, i could see it. But not in this case.
 
Based on the experiences of my friends, the policy USAFA was following for the last couple years was to sell the debt to a private debt collector. They were able (in this case) to claim it was government and student debt so they were able to garnish wages without a judges order and prevent bankruptcy from wiping the debt. I'd be curious to see what USNA does. Though we won't know.
 
I agree in theory. But with an education supposedly worth $400,000, I just don't see it being paid back. Even if they reduced it to say $100,000. We're not talking about someone with $50,000-$75,000 in student loans.

I guess the question is: "Can anyone show a case where a cadet who left in their 4th year actually DID pay back the education"? We hear about how a discharged cadet "Might" have to pay back their education; just wondering if they have. But as hornet mentioned, we'll probably never know.
 
Christcorp said:
That's a very long payoff. Not going to happen. If he was getting kicked out because of a crime and it was part of a punishment, i could see it. But not in this case.
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I know of AFROTC cadets paying off 4 years to an expensive private school who were separated just before commissioning. I expect they'll make him pay it off. I don't see how he avoids it with new bankruptcy laws.
 
I believe what Luigi stated is correct. I had a company mate get kicked out within his first year of Active Duty... He is still paying back that debt a small amount each paycheck (and he had declared bankruptcy during this time). Also agree about the gray area factor and honor offenses truly are handled differently by each Supt. I think I had 3 Supts in total while at USNA... each one had a reputation very different from one another on how they handled honor cases. I believe my first Supt was pretty much about 9 times out of 10 separated them and then next Supt it was a reversal as he believed in honor remediation. If this was in fact his third honor violation, bottom line is that is unacceptable and he should have been gone a long time ago. Was all this swept under the rug because he was Navy's QB... probably. And I disagree with that also. But I try to focus on the fact that he is not a representative of the entire Navy Football program (just as when a story about non-athlete makes headlines in the news for something stupid). There are alot more good Midshipmen on that team that are solid representatives of the Naval Academy than there are bad ones. I hate the fact that this is overshadowing those Mids and their efforts.
 
Mike,

There is a member here who hired an attorney to fight their DS's disenrollment and lost. Here is the link

http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=23912

Gojira said:
If you had a choice between recoupment and enlistment?
What would you do?

Recoupment for $25,000 - or less? Most of us would probably opt to pay it back.

Recoupment for $100,000 or more - much bigger deal. I have seen while googling these cases, that there are recoupment plans that are 10 years long. I have also seen DFAS asking to settle the bill in a month or 3 years.

Any thoughts?
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That was her 1st post on the thread, and she had already seen that 100K+ recoupment was occurring, it was just the repayment time varied.

Her last post was this:

Gojira said:
Update on disenrollment for NROTC
Several months ago, I posted some information about my son. His unit was pursuing disenrollment for him.

In November he was given his orders for reporting after graduation in December, he was measured for his commissioning uniforms and tape measured.

Unfortunately, he missed the mark by a few pounds and was out of compliance.

He was disenrolled for the weight. I honestly think they were looking for a reason previous to the weight issue.

We found out that his appeal was denied. He now owes the Navy $150,000.

He was not given an option to enlist - according to his unit, the Secretary of the Navy was asking for full recoupment of anyone who was facing disenrollment.

Thanks to everybody for your support, kind words and advice. It's pretty terrible for him - the dream is over.

I do wish everybody here the best of luck as they pursue their dreams of serving in the military.
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SO yes, they will make them pay, granted this kid was a NROTC mid, but the Navy still spent money on him, and this kid never had any honor issues like the USNA mid. I think that is why Hokie (post 15) stated he better repay it since she knew one of our own members are forced to repay 150K as of last week. If the Secretary of the Navy is asking for full recoupment of ANYONE, than that should include him too!
 
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kinnem said:
I know of AFROTC cadets paying off 4 years to an expensive private school who were separated just before commissioning. I expect they'll make him pay it off. I don't see how he avoids it with new bankruptcy laws.
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There are so many variables. The military could say that they are only going to charge him a percentage to cover housing and other costs; being the instructors and the educational process doesn't actually cost more having 15 in a class instead of 16. In which case, they could say he only owes them say $60,000. It all depends on how the Navy wants to handle it. I don't see them saying: "You owe us $400,000".
 
From USAFA grad cases, I've heard numbers more in the $125K range. Still not a small chunk of change, but it's not $400K either.
 
raimius said:
From USAFA grad cases, I've heard numbers more in the $125K range. Still not a small chunk of change, but it's not $400K either.
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Yes, the "$400k" number is just the inflated one used at graduation ceremonies that includes the costs of all training, grounds maintenance, salaries, medical, etc. The actual cost of the education is much lower.

The last USNA QB who was separated was initially hit with a bill for $136,000 in 2007, but had it reduced by the SecNav to $90,000. (Shockingly, the Supe at that time asked for zero repayment!)

The cost of Owens’ education was put at $136,000, but Winter reduced his debt by one-third, to $90,797.75 “in recognition of his noteworthy professional conduct during the time he served as a midshipman following his anticipated graduation date,” the Navy said in a written statement.

The academy superintendent, Vice Adm. Rodney Rempt, had recommended that Owens repay nothing.
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With the last two posts and the numbers being floated around, it appears that it will be in the 6 figure amount.
 
Luigi59 said:
As hornetguy stated, it is treated as a government educational loan debt, and the courts have ruled it is not dischargable via bankruptcy.
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Christcorp: I agree in theory. But with an education supposedly worth $400,000, I just don't see it being paid back. Even if they reduced it to say $100,000. We're not talking about someone with $50,000-$75,000 in student loans.
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Luigi's post isn't theoretical that is exactly what they are going to do and the only thing variable is going to be what they deem the cost of Tuition, fees and housing at the USNA is. My guesstimate is that he'll be somewhere in the $125-$150k range based on what ROTC would recoup. (As Luigi has also pointed out- that $400 k number that people bandy about is strictly a PR number for use at HS graduations that somebody arrived at by dividing the Annual O&M of the Academy by the number of Cadets/Midshipmen. It absolutely isn't what the equivalent tuition, fee's, R&B is if you were going to pay to go to the school -which is what the US will wind up charging).

Full recoupment of the costs sounds good in theory - but in reality- the Government is being both vindictive and short sighted. They have sunk the cost. Now they have the ability to either get a really highly capable sailor/soldier (compared to many of the soldiers for example that they routinely enlist with waivers for serious legal issues) for 4 years or they can functionally destroy the financial future of an individual for well past a decade for an issue that may or may not have been a legal issue at all or an issue outside of the USNA, in order to recoup what is essentially 1/8 the cost of the canape's at a GSA regional meeting.
 
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