Navy Vs. Air Force

[Mongo]

I had to look on our historian's website, but the first CG rescue swimmers graduated in 1984. Top Gun is a 1986 film. The Coast Guard had rescue swimmers before it had a rescue swimmer school....

There were a handful (less than a half dozen) of CG swimmers all trained by the Navy in P'cola prior to the end of 1984. In early 1985 they helped establish the helo swimmer deployment procedures and then went on to become the first rescue swimmer capable unit in Elizabeth City later in 1985. The second group formed a similiar unit in San Francisco at the end of 1985. The movie came out in May 1986. It was filmed throughout 1985. There were no CG swimmers on the west coast when that part of the movie was filmed. Hence a Navy swimmer.

Any CG "swimmers" prior to 1984 would have been totally unauthorized and probably never came off the cable or out of the basket. The CG was very much opposed to the swimmer concept and implimented the program only after a Congressional mandate due to the sinking of the Marine Electric off the Virginia coast in Feb 1983 where over 30 sailors perished because of the CGs position. The three who were rescued were by PO John McCann when the Navy was finally called in out of NAS Oceana after they had been in 28 degree water for over an hour.

 

[Mongo]

and why do you think i'm in high school?

Several threads as to ROTC vs SA and AF vs Navy which indicate that you have not yet made a choice capped by this post on another thread:

hey i was wondering how beneficial do you think that getting my instrument rating before UPT would be? i already have my PPL, and am considering getting my instrument rating this summer. money and time aren't really an issue, but it still a commitment and only one i am willing to make if it really will pay dividends down the road.

the reason i ask is because i've heard different things from different people. the instructors at the club i fly at (mostly prior military pilots) say it definitely will, but i'm sure they are somewhat biased. a few active duty pilots i've had the privelage to ask aren't so sure, so i thought i'd seek answers from a wider network..

what do you think? current or prior AF pilot input is greatly appreciated...

And finally, what appears to me to be some very immature viewpoints.

 

[Whistle Pig]

It is challenging for candidates to grasp the notion that no one(s) @ any of the SAs sit around in awe, or much caring about candidates w/ PPL, instrument ratings, etc. They are in business to prepare masses of individuals with these qualifications and so, as Rhett the Butler noted in "Gone With the Wind", their attitude is pretty much, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damned." And you know what? in terms of any specific individual, beyond it illumininating other significant, collective meritorious qualities of candidates, they really don't. And that is tough for many to grasp. So if it works, and you wanna do it, do it. If not? Don't. In any case have no delusion that having instruments, PPL, etc. will lend some monumental boost to ones candidacy. And in no way would they look at this and say, "Ah, our next Top Gun!" Unless the committee was exhausted and in dire need of some levity. This is much ado about very little.

endoftheline? you need to read your military history, I think. It'd be fun coming up agin you in the debate tournament. Free lunch.

 

[Bullet]

endoftheline? you need to read your military history, I think. It'd be fun coming up agin you in the debate tournament. Free lunch.

Part of me wants to respond with a drawling "I'll be your Huckleberry", but its a stupid exercise, as both services are outstanding and something to be proud to be a member of. And ultimately a waste of time, as all have their opinions and biases as to which they feel is the "superior" branch, usually based on which they served in or most desire to be a part of.

I will give you this, endoftheline made a silly mistake, posting his remarks where he posted it. Might as well of been a Yankee fan walking into the bleachers of Fenway to brag about the 28 World Championship Trophies currently residing in the Bronx. (and please, its just an analogy, let's not go down THAT particular route!) Like I said, a silly tactical error.

But he is also, as has been pointed out, a young man, as has been pointed out probably not yet out of HS. Inexperienced and naive. I recommend you give him some slack, and call off the attack dogs on topics totally unrelated to the OP's question and intent. (which, by the way, can ultimately be answered simply with: "it all depends on what best fits YOU")

You want to continue to ridicule a young man on here based on his opinion, and are just begging for that debate? Like I said, "I'll be your Huckleberry"...

(But like I also said, it would be pointless, and quite frankly boring to me as a waste of time, so I really won't put my heart into it. Personally, I'd rather just sit at the bar with the "bro's" (and "sis's"), shoot a watch or two, and pound our collective chests as we ALL brag that as a Department of Defense, no other nation comes close, and they could only run away in shame (or bury their aircraft in the sand rather than actually take into the air to defend themselves, which HAS happened before) if they dared try. )

 

[Mongo]

Well, if this is your #1 criteria, I will simply mention that the AF has twice as many fighters than the Navy and Marine Corps COMBINED! I will let you then make your own assessment.

This is only half the picture. The other half is that the AF has exponentially more students competing for those spots than does the Navy.

Another factor is that the AF pilot training program is vastly more structured than the Navy. Start with a class. Finish with the same class. When I tell AF types that Navy instructors will work with those who want to go jets and need higher grades, they look at me incrediously so I assume it does not happen in the AF. In the Navy, many, if not most, instructors will give an incomplete or a warmup if the flight is not quite up to par and they know the student wants jets. Of course, during periods of downsizing, this may be less prevalent.

Of course, AF landings just aren't as "cool"; we tend to worry more about the mission (which, personally, I think is the vastly more "cooler" aspect of flying fighters), and take the fact that we have to land after wards pretty low on our mission priority for that day's work.

Not quite following you here. Are you saying that Navy pilots are not as professional and that the quality of their airwork is not up to that of the AF? This seems to me a great rationalization for those who want to fly jets but fear they cannot handle carrier landings. Especially on a Navy forum.

 

[aglages]

I will give you this, endoftheline made a silly mistake, posting his remarks where he posted it. Might as well of been a Yankee fan walking into the bleachers of Fenway to brag about the 28 World Championship Trophies currently residing in the Bronx. (and please, its just an analogy, let's not go down THAT particular route!) Like I said, a silly tactical error.

But he is also, as has been pointed out, a young man, as has been pointed out probably not yet out of HS. Inexperienced and naive. I recommend you give him some slack, and call off the attack dogs on topics totally unrelated to the OP's question and intent. (which, by the way, can ultimately be answered simply with: "it all depends on what best fits YOU")

You want to continue to ridicule a young man on here based on his opinion, and are just begging for that debate?

Well said!

 

[Whistle Pig]

Of course they are both fine services. But they are vastly different, with little redundancy beyond most of what the AF does being likely doable and/or adaptable by USN. The inverse would be impossible. While politics may prevail even in the light of dramatic need to whack unnecessary expenses, there is reoccurring discussion in DC about eliminating USAFA.

And some opinions, as we see all the time, merit no serious consideration. Don't misinterpret that as unkindness, but rather calling a spade what it is. On the other hand, the AF does not have drill sargents. And that explains much. Where is that DI shrink when mamby-pamby counseling is called for ...

Lighten up, Francis!

 

[LTSackett]

Other Options

thanks very much, also which branch will you be more likely to receive a position as a fighter pilot?

One thing I haven't seen really discussed in this thread is the options if being a pilot doesn't work out. For many reasons, you might decide being a pilot isn't for you, or discover some problem that prevents it. If that turns out to be the case, the Navy and Marine Corps offer a much wider variety of alternative, interesting careers while the Air Force basically has Pilots and everyone else (support staff).

 

[endoftheline]

Of course they are both fine services. But they are vastly different, with little redundancy beyond most of what the AF does being likely doable and/or adaptable by USN. The inverse would be impossible. While politics may prevail even in the light of dramatic need to whack unnecessary expenses, there is reoccurring discussion in DC about eliminating USAFA.

And some opinions, as we see all the time, merit no serious consideration. Don't misinterpret that as unkindness, but rather calling a spade what it is. On the other hand, the AF does not have drill sargents. And that explains much. Where is that DI shrink when mamby-pamby counseling is called for ...

Lighten up, Francis!

there is reocurring discussions in DC about eliminating all the service academies, not just USAFA. the navy is not immune to major budget cuts either.

also, you say the navy can do what the air force does. show me a video where a C-5 or Globemaster III is taking off (or landing, whichever) from an aircraft carrier, and i will agree.

 

[endoftheline]

This is only half the picture. The other half is that the AF has exponentially more students competing for those spots than does the Navy.

Another factor is that the AF pilot training program is vastly more structured than the Navy. Start with a class. Finish with the same class. When I tell AF types that Navy instructors will work with those who want to go jets and need higher grades, they look at me incrediously so I assume it does not happen in the AF. In the Navy, many, if not most, instructors will give an incomplete or a warmup if the flight is not quite up to par and they know the student wants jets. Of course, during periods of downsizing, this may be less prevalent.



Not quite following you here. Are you saying that Navy pilots are not as professional and that the quality of their airwork is not up to that of the AF? This seems to me a great rationalization for those who want to fly jets but fear they cannot handle carrier landings. Especially on a Navy forum.

a buddy of mine a few months ago got denied T-38's (fighter/bomber track) in UPT. he was the 8th person out of 8 to want T-38's. the other 7 got them. doesn't seem exponentially greater to me.

also, who goes into naval pilot training and DOESN'T want jets? i find it hard to believe that the competition to get jets is any less in the navy than in the AF. just sayin...

 

[Mongo]

also, who goes into naval pilot training and DOESN'T want jets? i find it hard to believe that the competition to get jets is any less in the navy than in the AF. just sayin...

Some don't want the shipboard experience and want to fly P-3s. Some want to fly at sea but do not want to fly off carriers. Some want to transition to the airlines as quickly as possible and choose fixed wing prop. I would imagine with the coming of the P-8, this group will be a lot larger. Some don't want the extra commitment of jets. Some have body size restrictions that keep them out of a jet cockpit. Some actually do, for no other reaon than they like them, want to fly helos, E-2s, or P-3s. At the risk of sounding sexist, it seems that a disproportinate number of females want to fly helicopters. Some recognize that their personality type is more suited to one particular platform than another. But perhaps the biggest reason is that the type platform is somewhat self-selecting. By the time a student reaches the selection stage, he has realized that he is not God's gift to Navial aviation and that props or helos is a much better move on his part.

They are all good. All have advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Malachy Marine]

EOTL, some just may want a different platform as Mongo said. If you look at Marine Corps pilot wanna-bes a disproportionate number want to fly rotary-wing... This is in stark contrast to the other services where its usually jets, number one. This is because of the mission, and the nature of the Marine Corps... every Marine a rifleman, and every Marine officer a provisional rifle platoon commander. Everything else in the Marine Corps supports the Infantry... Supply, Aviation assets, Communications, even MARSOC/Force/Recon Bns serve in supporting roles to the 0311s on the ground.

The USMC does a fairly good job of developing this mentality throughout its ranks, even in the officer corps. As a result, many if not most Marine pilot wanna-bes want rotary... for the chance to fly AH-1W/Z Super/Cobras or at least serve in the Air Assault role (CH-46/MV-22, CH-53). And thats with the fact that if you get selected for tailhook aviation (thats how they screen post-primary now) as a Marine you are guaranteed to fly a jet aircraft (not so in the Navy. Even if they selected for straight fixed-wing VS rotary-wing, anyone selected for Fixed would be in the 80-90% category for jets (depending on requirements at the time).

All in all, my advice to you... Something I learned the hard way. And, granted, may not apply directly to you in this situation... But you WILL learn this your first few days at USNA if you are extended the privilege of an appointment there, and still applies if you are extended the privilege of an appointment at any SA:

The Laws of the Navy

Take heed what you say of your seniors,
Be your words spoken softly, or plain,
Lest a bird of the air hear the matter
And so shall ye hear it again.

Know your audience. And never think of yourself as the best MFer at whatever it is you do... Because the moment you do, somebody else already beat you: either, best case it was a friendly competitor (buddy, Navy, Air Force, Marine, Coast Guard), or worst case it was the Enemy who was better on that day at that time and made your eat your words with your life or worse the lives of your men.

 

[SteveHolt243]

also, who goes into naval pilot training and DOESN'T want jets?

Me. Also lots of my friends and fellow aviators.

Some good gouge for you: don't make sweeping statements when you don't know anything about the topic.

 

[Whistle Pig]

Yea, Tom Cruise is not the role model for most, believe it or not. Besides, I heard Kelly McGillis flunked outta helos, but still has heart for those guys.

 

[sprog]

On the other hand, the AF does not have drill sargents.

Yes they do. They are called Military Training Instructors (MTIs or TIs). They wear the Smokey Bear hat and everything.

 

[usnabgo08]

I think MM summed my thoughts as well in the first two paragraphs.

Each service has its own missions. Navy supports amphibious operations in conjunction with Marines (some aircraft -- mostly USMC; weapons systems), conducts anti-submarine warfare (aircraft - P-3/H-60s; subs and surface platforms), air defense (aircraft - F/A 18, EA-6B/EA-18, E-2C; weapons systems, radars), surface warfare (aircraft support; weapon systems), MSO/anti-piracy OPS (aircaft - H-60's, VBSS, weapon systems; USMC support), and there are lots more I could cover; this is just a superficial layer. The Navy covers A LOT of mission areas and aircraft support can be found in a handful.

Additionally, parking an aircraft carrier or two off a coast can be used as a strategic instrument of power -- having a forward presense with strong logistical lines enables the Navy to base itself (including embarked Marines) around the world ready to prevent or engage against adversaries/enemies when the National Command Authority deems it necessary. I point to Libya and Japan as great examples of support (to which other services were also heavily involved).

 

[MomoftheMagik]

I can simplify all this discussion by saying, "If you have to ask...go Air Force."

Ok, ok...I'm just kidding, but cut me some slack...I am the mom of two AWESOME Navy men, one enlisted and one at USNA!! (And the granddaughter, daughter and niece of Navy men...and the daughter-in-law of an AF bomber pilot, veteran of two wars, who happened to tell his grandsons to "fly Navy"!)

 

[Whistle Pig]

Yes they do. They are called Military Training Instructors (MTIs or TIs). They wear the Smokey Bear hat and everything.

Not "everything." I've heard they're more like the starters on the AF CC than they are like USMC DI's?

"ZOOMIE!Use your #3 wood! And that's an order! Sorry to have yelled @ you, fella. Ok, use your #2 iron if you want. And here's a token for a cold beverage of choice when you make the turn. Have a great round!"

"Aye aye, sir! Or should I call you Bob Sir?"

"Sure, why not ... we're all in this together."


(Taken from a real scenario observed during one USAFA cadets first summer @ the Club. The video is now used for training USAF TIs on "carrot" techniques of training their commrades and future airline pilots in order not to hurt their feelings, damage egos, or make cry.)

 

[LineInTheSand]

Yea, Tom Cruise is not the role model for most, believe it or not. Besides, I heard Kelly McGillis flunked outta helos, but still has heart for those guys.

That's weird, because I've heard Kelly McGillis doesn't have a heart for guys at all.

 

[endoftheline]

Not "everything." I've heard they're more like the starters on the AF CC than they are like USMC DI's?

"ZOOMIE!Use your #3 wood! And that's an order! Sorry to have yelled @ you, fella. Ok, use your #2 iron if you want. And here's a token for a cold beverage of choice when you make the turn. Have a great round!"

"Aye aye, sir! Or should I call you Bob Sir?"

"Sure, why not ... we're all in this together."


(Taken from a real scenario observed during one USAFA cadets first summer @ the Club. The video is now used for training USAF TIs on "carrot" techniques of training their commrades and future airline pilots in order not to hurt their feelings, damage egos, or make cry.)

if you ever said this to a TI in real life he'd rip your throat out and tell you sound off anyways.

i don't know where you are getting your facts, but to say that TI's act like that is just straight silly.