TacticalNuke
Administrator
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 3,039
Keep the discussion professional or this thread will be locked and members will receive temp bans.
-TN
-TN
Never Thought I'd see the Day--Pagans at USAFA?
- Thread starter falconchic88
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2008
- Messages
- 6,179
raimius
15-Year Member
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2006
- Messages
- 3,012
I think I need some explanation on this one.
It sounds like you are saying anything anyone considers offensive should be banned, which would result in every personal thought, behavior, or ritual being banned.
That would FUNDAMENTALLY violate the standards and philosophy our nation is built upon.
If you think religions (all of them) are wrong, fine. If you advocate that they be legally banned, you run directly afoul of the US Constitution. Support of such a proposition would be in direct violation of the oath every military member takes.
...I hope I'm reading this wrong.
No personal thoughts, rituals, and behaviors? Does that mean every thought and action must comply with some leader? And who would determine what thoughts and actions are allowed and what are banned? Wow, sounds a lot like Fascism. This doesn't jive with the concept of freedom at all, and I'm pretty sure this was the foundation of every totalitarian society that ever existed.
- Joined
- May 5, 2007
- Messages
- 294
Was the mention of removing religious items referring to a time several years ago? I proudly display my rosary on my board behind my desk, and have religious books front on my shelf. There is absolutely nothing preventing me from doing so.
The thing i find most concerning: many cadets often use that location (if i understood it correctly) as a place to make bonfires and smoke cigars. Will that be affected because it's now considered religious ground?
and i'm interested to hear what Mickey Weinstein has to say about it when he's out here for NCLS.
The thing i find most concerning: many cadets often use that location (if i understood it correctly) as a place to make bonfires and smoke cigars. Will that be affected because it's now considered religious ground?
and i'm interested to hear what Mickey Weinstein has to say about it when he's out here for NCLS.
falconchic88
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2009
- Messages
- 1,124
Eagle, I was hopping that had lightened up a bit since the big scandal a few years back (I think it was in 2004). At that time, the knee jerk reaction to the media feeding frenzy was to make sure they didn't offend anyone, and cadets were told to remove any religious symbols in public view. Different squadrons probably interpreted this differently, but both my niece and nephew were told to remove certain items on thier desk in thier rooms. Sounds like it was a short lived ban, which is encouraging.
falconchic88
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2009
- Messages
- 1,124
Oh, Thanks Admin for editing my thread title! 
well, if people cant learn to tolerate someone else's ideas, then why should they have the right to follow their own. that is the point I was getting at. We may all have our own, but when we cant accept others, we do not deserve our own.
any better?
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2009
- Messages
- 55
I think that this was a very good article, and was apparently needed.
http://www.usafa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123188986
http://www.usafa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123188986
I guarantee you that 98% of cadets at usafa (myself included) didn't know about the new prayer circle until it was reported on foxnews.com with the headline of "Witches Welcome."
Never once in my time here have I ever witnessed or heard about people complaining about anything to do with religion. Everyone here seems content with the religious situation. Sure, you may not agree with the beliefs of everyone; I surely dont. But i respect the fact that everyone deserves the chance to worship as they please (within reason). This is the foundation of the constitution, and as officers that's what we're taught to uphold. Seems to me like the media is making this a huge deal, trying to throw in a tie to the "scandals" of years past, but that is absolutely not the case. I've known of neo-pagan groups at the academy since day 2 of basic training, when we all got our first opportunity to go to religious meetings.
Point being: regardless of how few or how many people follow a particular religion, they have a place to worship at USAFA. The new prayer circle was constructed from rocks by the visitors' center that would've eroded and damaged property. To me, it seems like it was an opportunistic thing: they made the best of the situation by putting the rocks to a better use.
Respect that not everyone has the same opinions and beliefs. Get over it, work with them, and get the job done.
Never once in my time here have I ever witnessed or heard about people complaining about anything to do with religion. Everyone here seems content with the religious situation. Sure, you may not agree with the beliefs of everyone; I surely dont. But i respect the fact that everyone deserves the chance to worship as they please (within reason). This is the foundation of the constitution, and as officers that's what we're taught to uphold. Seems to me like the media is making this a huge deal, trying to throw in a tie to the "scandals" of years past, but that is absolutely not the case. I've known of neo-pagan groups at the academy since day 2 of basic training, when we all got our first opportunity to go to religious meetings.
Point being: regardless of how few or how many people follow a particular religion, they have a place to worship at USAFA. The new prayer circle was constructed from rocks by the visitors' center that would've eroded and damaged property. To me, it seems like it was an opportunistic thing: they made the best of the situation by putting the rocks to a better use.
Respect that not everyone has the same opinions and beliefs. Get over it, work with them, and get the job done.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2009
- Messages
- 51
Well here's a new development on the story. I'll leave it to the article to explain:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-wicca3-2010feb03,0,3367750.story
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-wicca3-2010feb03,0,3367750.story
a tempest in a teapot
This is a tempest in a teapot.
The media loves to start fights (between others) then they have tumult to report. Those who are “afraid” of, or intolerant of others, are insecure or ignorant and groups like Weinsteins’ and others need to stir up the issue and prolong any sort of conflict for as long as possible because it is a rare chance to fundraise for their organization.
So you have those who incite otehrs, the ignorant (willful or otherwise) and of course, those who live off the ignorance of others, keeping people scared and asking for funds to fight off the demons.
Generals Goulds’ comments are right on the money.
At the Air Force Academy, It’s All About Respect
By Lieutenant General Michael C. Gould
IN THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS, YOU’VE READ OR HEARD OR SEEN THAT THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY HAS ESTABLISHED AN AREA FOR EARTH CENTERED WORSHIP. SOME OF WHAT YOU READ OR HEAR IS SENSATIONALIZED. I WANT TO SEPARATE FACT FROM FICTION.
WE MADE THE DECISION TO ADD A WORSHIP AREA FOR FOLLOWERS OF EARTH-CENTERED RELIGIONS BASED ON RELIGIOUS RIGHTS OUTLINED IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION. THE STONE CIRCLE IS LOCATED ATOP A HILL OVERLOOKING THE VISITOR CENTER AND IS THE LATEST ADDITION TO A COLLECTION OF WORSHIP AREAS THAT ALREADY INCLUDE PROTESTANT, CATHOLIC, JEWISH, MUSLIM AND BUDDHIST SACRED SPACES.
THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE REMAINS NEUTRAL REGARDING RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND WILL NOT OFFICIALLY ENDORSE NOR DISAPPROVE ANY FAITH BELIEF OR ABSENCE OF BELIEF. THE EARTH-CENTERED SPIRITUALITY GROUP THAT MEETS AT THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY FALLS WITHIN THE DEFINTION OF RELIGION AS DEFINED IN THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2706 WHICH STATES:
“A PERSONAL SET OR INSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM OF ATTITUDES, MORAL OR ETHICAL BELIEFS AND PRACTICES HELD WITH THE STRENGTH OF TRADITIONAL RELIGIOUS VIEWS, CHARACTERIZED BY ARDOR AND FAITH AND GENERALLY EVIDENCED THROUGH SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCES.”
EARTH CENTERED WORSHIP FALLS IN THIS DEFINITION. ADDING THE EARTH-CENTERED WORSHIP CIRCLE WAS DONE SO IN RESPONSE TO THE REQUEST OF BOTH CADETS AND ACTIVE DUTY PERSONNEL WHO ASKED THAT THEIR RELIGION BE ACCOMODATED BY THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY CHAPLAINCY. THEREFORE, IT IS OUR OBLIGATION, MY OBLIGATION, TO ACCOMMODATE THE GROUP’S RELIGIOUS REQUIREMENTS IN A MANNER THAT IS FAIR AND CONSISTENT WITH OTHER RELIGIOUS GROUPS WHO ARE ACCOMODATED AT THE ACADEMY.
YOU MAY HAVE ALSO HEARD THAT A CROSS WAS FOUND AT THE SITE. THE CROSS WAS MADE OF RAILROAD TIES BEING LEFT AT THE EARTH WORSHIP SITE. THIS TOPIC HAS ALSO BEEN EXTENSIVELY COVERED AND NOT ALWAYS ACCURATELY. THOUGH WE DON’T KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES BEHIND THIS INCIDENT, WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS A MALICIOUS ACT OR NOT, OR EVEN IF ACADEMY PERSONNEL WERE INVOLVED, WE DIRECTED AN INQUIRY THAT IS ONGOING. IF WE FIND THAT THIS IS AN INTENTIONAL INCIDENT AND IDENTIFY THOSE RESPONSIBLE, WE’LL TAKE THE APPROPRIATE ACTION. BUT WE TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY AND ON THE 2TH OF JANUARY I PERSONALLY TALKED TO MY SENIOR STAFF TO REITERATE THE ACADEMY’S STANCE ON RESPECT AND DIGNITY. SINCE THEN, OUR DEAN OF FACULTY HAS ADDRESSED THIS WITH HER FACULTY AND STAFF, OUR COMMANDANT OF CADETS HAS TALKED TO THE ENTIRE CADET WING, OUR ATHLETIC DIRECTOR HAS TALKED WITH OUR COACHES AND PHYSICAL FITNESS AND ADMINISTRATIVE STAFFS, OUR PREP SCHOOL COMMANDER HAS TALKED WITH HIS STAFF AND THE 220 CADET CANDIDATES AND THE COMMANDER OF OUR AIR BASE WING HAS DONE THE SAME WITH HIS STAFF.
OUR MESSAGE IS SIMPLE: WE ARE TAKING THIS INCIDENT VERY SERIOUSLY AND CONDUCTING AN IQUIRY. WE ABSOLUTELY DO NOT STAND FOR ANY TYPE OF DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR OR DISRESPECT FOR HUMAN DIGNITY.
THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY IS NOT THE FIRST AIR FORCE INSTITUTION TO ACCOMMODATE EARTH CENTERED RELIGIONS AND WE WON’T BE THE LAST. HOWEVER, AT THE AIR FORCE ACADMEY THE ISSUE OF RELIGION IS FAR GREATER THAN ACCOMODATION, IT’S ABOUT RELIGIOUS RESPECT.
THE MISSION OF THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE ACADEMY IS TO EDUCATE, TRAIN AND INSPIRE MEN AND WOMEN TO BECOME OFFICERS OF CHARACTER TO LEAD THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE IN SERVICE TO OUR NATION. WE ARE DEDICATED TO CREATING A LEARNING AND TRAINING ENVIRONMENT WHERE CADETS CAN REALIZE THEIR HIGHEST POTENTIAL REGARDLESS OF THEIR RELIGIOUS OR OTHER BELIEFS.
CADETS LEARN THAT TO SUCCEED AS AN AIR FORCE OFFICER WE MUST BE ABLE TO SUPPORT AND RESPECT THE PEOPLE WHO WE LEAD, SERVE WITH AND FIGHT ALONG SIDE EVEN IF THEY DO NOT SHARE OUR PERSONAL BELIEFS.
CADETS LEARN THAT EVERY SERVICEMEMBER IS CHARGED WITH DEFENDING FREEDOM FOR ALL AMERICANS AND THAT INCLUDES THE FREEDOM TO PRACTICE A RELIGION OF THEIR CHOICE OR TO NOT PRACTICE ANY RELIGION AT ALL.
CADETS LEARN THAT IT IS A GREAT HONOR AND PRIVILEGE TO WEAR THE UNIFORM OF OUR ARMED SERVICES AND SERVE TO PROTECT FREEDOM, TO INCLUDE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
ON GRADUATION DAY, THE SAME DAY AS THEY ARE AWARED A COMMISSION AS SECOND LIEUTENANTS IN THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE, THEY WILL TAKE AN OATH TO SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
AT THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY WE FOCUS AND WILL CONTINUE TO FOCUS ON RESPECT FOR HUMAN DIGNITY TO ENSURE ALL PERSONNEL RESPECT THE SPIRT AND INTENT OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT TO THE U.S. CONSTITUION. THIS OUR COMMON DUTY AS MEMBERS OF THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE.
This is a tempest in a teapot.
The media loves to start fights (between others) then they have tumult to report. Those who are “afraid” of, or intolerant of others, are insecure or ignorant and groups like Weinsteins’ and others need to stir up the issue and prolong any sort of conflict for as long as possible because it is a rare chance to fundraise for their organization.
So you have those who incite otehrs, the ignorant (willful or otherwise) and of course, those who live off the ignorance of others, keeping people scared and asking for funds to fight off the demons.
Generals Goulds’ comments are right on the money.
At the Air Force Academy, It’s All About Respect
By Lieutenant General Michael C. Gould
IN THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS, YOU’VE READ OR HEARD OR SEEN THAT THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY HAS ESTABLISHED AN AREA FOR EARTH CENTERED WORSHIP. SOME OF WHAT YOU READ OR HEAR IS SENSATIONALIZED. I WANT TO SEPARATE FACT FROM FICTION.
WE MADE THE DECISION TO ADD A WORSHIP AREA FOR FOLLOWERS OF EARTH-CENTERED RELIGIONS BASED ON RELIGIOUS RIGHTS OUTLINED IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION. THE STONE CIRCLE IS LOCATED ATOP A HILL OVERLOOKING THE VISITOR CENTER AND IS THE LATEST ADDITION TO A COLLECTION OF WORSHIP AREAS THAT ALREADY INCLUDE PROTESTANT, CATHOLIC, JEWISH, MUSLIM AND BUDDHIST SACRED SPACES.
THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE REMAINS NEUTRAL REGARDING RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND WILL NOT OFFICIALLY ENDORSE NOR DISAPPROVE ANY FAITH BELIEF OR ABSENCE OF BELIEF. THE EARTH-CENTERED SPIRITUALITY GROUP THAT MEETS AT THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY FALLS WITHIN THE DEFINTION OF RELIGION AS DEFINED IN THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2706 WHICH STATES:
“A PERSONAL SET OR INSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM OF ATTITUDES, MORAL OR ETHICAL BELIEFS AND PRACTICES HELD WITH THE STRENGTH OF TRADITIONAL RELIGIOUS VIEWS, CHARACTERIZED BY ARDOR AND FAITH AND GENERALLY EVIDENCED THROUGH SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCES.”
EARTH CENTERED WORSHIP FALLS IN THIS DEFINITION. ADDING THE EARTH-CENTERED WORSHIP CIRCLE WAS DONE SO IN RESPONSE TO THE REQUEST OF BOTH CADETS AND ACTIVE DUTY PERSONNEL WHO ASKED THAT THEIR RELIGION BE ACCOMODATED BY THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY CHAPLAINCY. THEREFORE, IT IS OUR OBLIGATION, MY OBLIGATION, TO ACCOMMODATE THE GROUP’S RELIGIOUS REQUIREMENTS IN A MANNER THAT IS FAIR AND CONSISTENT WITH OTHER RELIGIOUS GROUPS WHO ARE ACCOMODATED AT THE ACADEMY.
YOU MAY HAVE ALSO HEARD THAT A CROSS WAS FOUND AT THE SITE. THE CROSS WAS MADE OF RAILROAD TIES BEING LEFT AT THE EARTH WORSHIP SITE. THIS TOPIC HAS ALSO BEEN EXTENSIVELY COVERED AND NOT ALWAYS ACCURATELY. THOUGH WE DON’T KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES BEHIND THIS INCIDENT, WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS A MALICIOUS ACT OR NOT, OR EVEN IF ACADEMY PERSONNEL WERE INVOLVED, WE DIRECTED AN INQUIRY THAT IS ONGOING. IF WE FIND THAT THIS IS AN INTENTIONAL INCIDENT AND IDENTIFY THOSE RESPONSIBLE, WE’LL TAKE THE APPROPRIATE ACTION. BUT WE TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY AND ON THE 2TH OF JANUARY I PERSONALLY TALKED TO MY SENIOR STAFF TO REITERATE THE ACADEMY’S STANCE ON RESPECT AND DIGNITY. SINCE THEN, OUR DEAN OF FACULTY HAS ADDRESSED THIS WITH HER FACULTY AND STAFF, OUR COMMANDANT OF CADETS HAS TALKED TO THE ENTIRE CADET WING, OUR ATHLETIC DIRECTOR HAS TALKED WITH OUR COACHES AND PHYSICAL FITNESS AND ADMINISTRATIVE STAFFS, OUR PREP SCHOOL COMMANDER HAS TALKED WITH HIS STAFF AND THE 220 CADET CANDIDATES AND THE COMMANDER OF OUR AIR BASE WING HAS DONE THE SAME WITH HIS STAFF.
OUR MESSAGE IS SIMPLE: WE ARE TAKING THIS INCIDENT VERY SERIOUSLY AND CONDUCTING AN IQUIRY. WE ABSOLUTELY DO NOT STAND FOR ANY TYPE OF DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR OR DISRESPECT FOR HUMAN DIGNITY.
THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY IS NOT THE FIRST AIR FORCE INSTITUTION TO ACCOMMODATE EARTH CENTERED RELIGIONS AND WE WON’T BE THE LAST. HOWEVER, AT THE AIR FORCE ACADMEY THE ISSUE OF RELIGION IS FAR GREATER THAN ACCOMODATION, IT’S ABOUT RELIGIOUS RESPECT.
THE MISSION OF THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE ACADEMY IS TO EDUCATE, TRAIN AND INSPIRE MEN AND WOMEN TO BECOME OFFICERS OF CHARACTER TO LEAD THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE IN SERVICE TO OUR NATION. WE ARE DEDICATED TO CREATING A LEARNING AND TRAINING ENVIRONMENT WHERE CADETS CAN REALIZE THEIR HIGHEST POTENTIAL REGARDLESS OF THEIR RELIGIOUS OR OTHER BELIEFS.
CADETS LEARN THAT TO SUCCEED AS AN AIR FORCE OFFICER WE MUST BE ABLE TO SUPPORT AND RESPECT THE PEOPLE WHO WE LEAD, SERVE WITH AND FIGHT ALONG SIDE EVEN IF THEY DO NOT SHARE OUR PERSONAL BELIEFS.
CADETS LEARN THAT EVERY SERVICEMEMBER IS CHARGED WITH DEFENDING FREEDOM FOR ALL AMERICANS AND THAT INCLUDES THE FREEDOM TO PRACTICE A RELIGION OF THEIR CHOICE OR TO NOT PRACTICE ANY RELIGION AT ALL.
CADETS LEARN THAT IT IS A GREAT HONOR AND PRIVILEGE TO WEAR THE UNIFORM OF OUR ARMED SERVICES AND SERVE TO PROTECT FREEDOM, TO INCLUDE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
ON GRADUATION DAY, THE SAME DAY AS THEY ARE AWARED A COMMISSION AS SECOND LIEUTENANTS IN THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE, THEY WILL TAKE AN OATH TO SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
AT THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY WE FOCUS AND WILL CONTINUE TO FOCUS ON RESPECT FOR HUMAN DIGNITY TO ENSURE ALL PERSONNEL RESPECT THE SPIRT AND INTENT OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT TO THE U.S. CONSTITUION. THIS OUR COMMON DUTY AS MEMBERS OF THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE.
Just_A_Mom
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2006
- Messages
- 4,774
Don - you are spot on. Good letter from General Gould.
- Joined
- May 5, 2007
- Messages
- 294
Suprising that Weinstein happens to be at the center of this again? i think not. makes sense that as his people "found the cross" that he was consequently invited to speak at our National Character and Leadership Symposium. Seems to me that Weinstein is using the media to spark debate and get his name back out into the show. He's the opposite of character and leadership.
and just to clarfiy, i am not opposed to his idea that the military be unbiased, but he chooses the wrong methods to do so and fights more to oppose Christian beliefs as opposed to promoting an environment of neutrality.
and just to clarfiy, i am not opposed to his idea that the military be unbiased, but he chooses the wrong methods to do so and fights more to oppose Christian beliefs as opposed to promoting an environment of neutrality.
Luigi59
Banned
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2007
- Messages
- 4,566
Tech. Sgt. Brandon Longcrier, a self-described pagan who sponsors the group that worships there, said the incident was similar to someone leaving a pentagram or a pagan symbol at the academy's chapel altar and claimed he and others are victim of a hate crime.
"We don't think, we know it was a hate crime," said Weinstein, who compared the incident to spray-painting a swastika on a synagogue.
"It has the same impact, the same hurt, the same marginalization," he said Thursday. "That circle is their mosque, their church, their synagogue."
"We don't think, we know it was a hate crime," said Weinstein, who compared the incident to spray-painting a swastika on a synagogue.
"It has the same impact, the same hurt, the same marginalization," he said Thursday. "That circle is their mosque, their church, their synagogue."
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2009
- Messages
- 218
Cross in stone circle - incredibly inappropriate.
Comparing it to pentagrams in the chapel - fair.
Comparing it to swastikas on a synagogue - stupid and offensive.
Comparing it to pentagrams in the chapel - fair.
Comparing it to swastikas on a synagogue - stupid and offensive.
