New Cadet BBQ

billyb said:
I thought the purpose of Beast is to help weed out those that cannot perform under near constant stress. The stress used to come in many forms at beast (constant yelling, PT/physical exhaustion, hunger, tiredness, mental exhaustion with knowledge etc..) and all at the same time. I understand the stressors have changed over the years, but there should be stressors of some sort. We had droves of new cadets leave during beast because they couldn't handle the stress. There is nothing wrong with that. I think that is the way it should be. Better to find out earlier than later. Those that stayed learned how to compartmentalize heavy stress and still get the job done. Isn't that what you want from Army officers?
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And that is exactly where the problems start, people not understanding the purpose of Beast. As defined by the Superintendent and the Commandant of the Corps of Cadets on R-day, 2013, the purpose of Beast is NOT attrition. As the Commandant stated, it may have been when he was a cadet in the 80s but it is no longer. The focus is training, not weeding out. Don't expect the cadet cadre or the officer/NCO chain of command to act in a way that is contrary to the mission, even though it is a mission you may or may not believe is valid.
 
ProudofOurMilitary said:
Tug Boat I agree with you 100%. Shame on the individual for posting those images. Those were innocent photos and that individual has turned them into a mockery. Upper classmen or women you should not be critizing publicly, especially on a forum, the decisions USMA has made with regard to CBT. The training and decisions were made and you should except it. Just like anything else in life, everything continues to change and evolve. Can't get everything perfect all the time. Get over it and move foward. Be the leaders you were trained to be. Respect the academy you attend and don't belittle it publicly. If you have issues, take it up with them directly.
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What would be an appropriate forum to voice my disagreement or displeasure with what's happening at West Point?
 
Here are some words from someone I respect, regarding ability to do pushups or bench press or get yelled at,
versus being able to earn respect and win the fight: SOCOM's Major Gen. Bennet Sacolick said "the days of Rambo are over," as he made the point that it takes brains as well as brawn to be a modern day Special Operator.

“I mean, we're looking for young men that can speak and learn a foreign language and understand culture, that can work with indigenous populations and culturally attune manners. I mean, just -- you know, the defining characteristic of our operators are intellect. And when people fail in the special forces qualification course, predominantly they fail because they're -- they're not doing their homework"
 
MemberLG, Do you really need to voice your disagreement or displeasure publicly? Does it make you feel that much better that you did? I suggest you go directly to the source. I for one am not the type of individual, especially if I have a disagreement, to pull everyone else into it. If I have an issue, I deal with it directly and head on. Whether I get results or not, it was handled in a professional manner. This forum was and is not intended for this type of rehtoric.
 
Mike Schaertl said:
And that is exactly where the problems start, people not understanding the purpose of Beast. As defined by the Superintendent and the Commandant of the Corps of Cadets on R-day, 2013, the purpose of Beast is NOT attrition. As the Commandant stated, it may have been when he was a cadet in the 80s but it is no longer. The focus is training, not weeding out. Don't expect the cadet cadre or the officer/NCO chain of command to act in a way that is contrary to the mission, even though it is a mission you may or may not believe is valid.
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I don't think it should be about attrition either. It should be about ensuring that they are producing officers that can work effectively under extended duress. A natural by product of figuring that out is attrition. If there was an effective way to measure "grace under pressure" in candidates then I am sure that would be a large part of the WCS. Unfortunately, there is no good measure of it and the only way to really figure it out is to subject people to high stress and see who can take it and who cannot. Lots of good and smart people left during my beast and plebe year. Most of them just couldn't/didn't want to perform under the stress anymore. It doesn't make them any less of a person, but they just weren't right for the military.
 
'Scuse me for butting in. I don't have a dog in this match, that is, other than wanting my son's future fellow officers to be smart, fit, well-trained young men and women of integrity. Which is no doubt a universal wish of any parent, alumnus/alumna and current or future cadet on these forums.

I looked at the pictures in question (or maybe the same one twice). What I saw was a glimpse of a few exhilarated plebes with new haircuts and plates of food. Although I can only infer the context, I couldn't see how the photos were mocking. The individual who posted them revealed to no one's surprise that with respect to Beast he is something of a Puritan (H.L. Mencken: "Puritanism - the haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy"). Heck, if my son had known that USMA served BBQ, he might have ended up at West Point instead of ROTC.

The suggestion that unless the moderators clamp down hard anything goes is unfortunate, and I'd bet the poster of those words would rephrase the statement. On the other hand, if anyone thinks what's been posted on this thread is intolerably vicious, I submit they take a tour of the rest of the internet.

Almost time to see another LDAC graduation.
 
Mike Schaertl said:
I would say an email/letter to your Congressman, Senator, Commandant of Cadets.
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This is where our opinions differ. Sometimes, we shouldn't say anything if we don't have good things to say.

I respect your opinion, but I believe that this forum is a venue where I can express my displeasures or disagreement with West Point. And respectfully, you don't decide if I can or cannot post, the moderators do (to clarify, I am talking about moderators controlling postings on threads, they don't decide how I think).

So the question is if this forum is appropriate or inappropriate forum to voice my displeasure or disagreement with what West Point does? You can check my previous postings and I believe I stayed away from posting my "displeasure" with West Point. I agree with most of the comments about. However, I strongly believer folks to right to express their opinions, regardless I like them or not, on this forum.
 
Mike Schaertl said:
And that is exactly where the problems start, people not understanding the purpose of Beast. As defined by the Superintendent and the Commandant of the Corps of Cadets on R-day, 2013, the purpose of Beast is NOT attrition. As the Commandant stated, it may have been when he was a cadet in the 80s but it is no longer. The focus is training, not weeding out.
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What purpose did the candy bars serve for training? That's the otherwise of the argument you're missing.

I don't believe the side of BigBear and scoutpilot want Beast to become Ranger School, but they see wasted time in training hours being replaced with candy and a BBQ. Someone here said "Do they have a BBQ in Ft. Benning during the middle of basic? Why not?" - or something along those lines. As I see it, their concerns are if the time, money and energy being put into these new feel-good activities is worth it in the long run.

Short answer: No.

P.S. No one was being cyber bullied. Unless private information was shared and the "victim" was addressed specifically, it isn't cyber bullying. Either way, the OP was not insulting or putting blame on those New Cadets anyway.

Can't everyone agree to disagree and move on with their lives?
 
ProudofOurMilitary said:
MemberLG, Do you really need to voice your disagreement or displeasure publicly? Does it make you feel that much better that you did? I suggest you go directly to the source. I for one am not the type of individual, especially if I have a disagreement, to pull everyone else into it. If I have an issue, I deal with it directly and head on. Whether I get results or not, it was handled in a professional manner. This forum was and is not intended for this type of rehtoric.
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I don't type fast. If you check my previous postings I don't think I have voiced my disagreement or displeasure on this forum. If I did, I always qualified with "I believe" or "in my opinion."

Simply, I am for forum members rights to post their opinions on this forum if they conform to the forum rules, regardless if I agree or not.
 
tug_boat said:
MemberLG, Scoutpilot, BigNick, BigBear, if your barometer to measure whether you have crossed the line or not, when the forum moderator puts you in check is clearly a deflection of being responsible for your actions. I encourage you to ask yourselves, “Why is my opinion better than others?” Hint: Your opinions are quickly becoming outdated and disconnected.

BigBear, bluntly, you have way too much time on your hands if you are here, buckle down, study, and graduate the highest you can achieve. The Army and the world await you.

Good luck, gentlemen

Push Hard, Press Forward
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Ok, I see your point. The opinions of current service members, graduates, and cadets are becoming outdated because....they're not the same as yours?

What informs your opinion, anyway? What's your connection to all this?
 
billyb said:
I don't think it should be about attrition either. It should be about ensuring that they are producing officers that can work effectively under extended duress. A natural by product of figuring that out is attrition. If there was an effective way to measure "grace under pressure" in candidates then I am sure that would be a large part of the WCS. Unfortunately, there is no good measure of it and the only way to really figure it out is to subject people to high stress and see who can take it and who cannot. Lots of good and smart people left during my beast and plebe year. Most of them just couldn't/didn't want to perform under the stress anymore. It doesn't make them any less of a person, but they just weren't right for the military.
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Billy, we agree that subjecting people to stress and seeing if they can work under that stress is a very very important gauge of character. And at one time that was the purpose of Beast. However, that mission has changed. USMA has changed and we ought not criticize the cadets/cadre/chain of command who are complying with the current mission. Yet, that is exactly how this thread started. ROTC produces excellent officers as well but they generally have nothing like the stressful environments of days gone by, either. That doesn't mean the military has given up that training, it just occurs at different places, like Ranger School, a little bit farther down the road. Now, should we weed people out now or later? Though it might be thought of as more cost effective to admit 1400 with the intention of graduating 900, I think that with 4 years of training we become much better at working under stressful situations. An 18 year old new cadet fresh out of high school without much of a clue what the military is like could easily wash out of old corps beast. But given 4 years of training he/she might develop into a fine officer who can handle that situation and more. I just think that 18 year old kids should be afforded the opportunity to mature a bit more, live in a military environment a bit more instead of telling him/her to sink or swim the first 6 weeks. Yes, expose them to stress commensurate with what their job entails...later.
 
Mike Schaertl said:
I would say an email/letter to your Congressman, Senator, Commandant of Cadets.
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That certainly does sound transparent or in keeping with a vocal populace.

"Ladies and gentlemen, please do not protest. Send a letter to a group of people who haven't passed a budget (something they're required to do) in over half a decade. Yes.... that's true transparency.


I haven't "viewed" New Cadet BBQ until today, assuming nothing was going on, now only to see that you Grey Liners are having your own little war here! Wowzaaaa
 
Mike Schaertl said:
Billy, we agree that subjecting people to stress and seeing if they can work under that stress is a very very important gauge of character. And at one time that was the purpose of Beast. However, that mission has changed. USMA has changed and we ought not criticize the cadets/cadre/chain of command who are complying with the current mission. Yet, that is exactly how this thread started. ROTC produces excellent officers as well but they generally have nothing like the stressful environments of days gone by, either. That doesn't mean the military has given up that training, it just occurs at different places, like Ranger School, a little bit farther down the road. Now, should we weed people out now or later? Though it might be thought of as more cost effective to admit 1400 with the intention of graduating 900, I think that with 4 years of training we become much better at working under stressful situations. An 18 year old new cadet fresh out of high school without much of a clue what the military is like could easily wash out of old corps beast. But given 4 years of training he/she might develop into a fine officer who can handle that situation and more. I just think that 18 year old kids should be afforded the opportunity to mature a bit more, live in a military environment a bit more instead of telling him/her to sink or swim the first 6 weeks. Yes, expose them to stress commensurate with what their job entails...later.
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I can understand what you are saying and there is merit to it. However, if that is the belief, IMHO then the value of West Point to the Army is minimized as it would be a glorified ROTC unit and in this time of budget crunching probably not worth the cost.
 
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Chill Pill

Me thinks a lot of people need to take a chill pill. I am a parent of a '17 NC. If you are a USMA student on this thread, you really need to leave immediately. It is highly unprofessional for you to be offering assessments of NCs and/or your CoC in a public forum. I can provide you with at least 10 recent cases of information posted on forums and facebook resulting in lost jobs, demotions, or failures to get hired. If you are a grad, a vet, or other interested party, fire away.

I cannot offer an objective assessment. My NC says that the PT is easy, but the rest is fun and he is learning a lot. In his letters home, I can see a distinct change in his demeanor and commitment, which is what I would have expected during this process. His assessment of the PT is not fair, because he swam 2 hours each day, and crossfit another 2 hours. He rucked, ran, swam, and lifted. So, he was uber prepared. He spent three weeks in a BUD/S indoctrination/crossfit academy, so the mental, physical, and emotional challenges for him at WP are nothing compared with that. But, I do not think that is what USMA is trying to accomplish either.

Everyone thinks they had it harder or performed better. And in some ways it is "easier" (the boots are an example...but they do have to shine their low quarters too...I know that is not the same). Many things my NC does not agree with about the training. But, in the end, we need to keep things in perspective that we do not know EVERYTHING that is going on or WHY they are doing some of the things they are doing. Question, yes. Sling mud...no. My five cents (it was 10 but sequestration set in).

As for the BBQ and candy bars...how many of you turned away your mass produced peach cobbler at basic during dinner? I know the young lady and her parents that were pictured and she WILL be mortified that her image was used in this way (whatever lame justifications you use for her being in the field are asinine). One could have simply described the situation to make the point (like another poster here did about birthday cakes).
 
I'm speaking from the angle of another academy grad, instead of Beast, we had Swab Summer.

I don't remember Swab Summer being easy as a swab. Four years later, reflecting on my time as a swab, I also didn't find it any easier. I do think my cadre had more ability to "do whatever they wanted". Some of their action wouldn't have been seen as acceptable two years later when I was a cadre. The "Running Light" (indoc book at CGA) was cleaned up, and some of the "offensive stuff" was removed. The actions didn't make it easier, but much more professional.

Rumors surfaced as we were preparing for swab summer of a "stress card", where swabs experiencing "stress" could pull a card for a rest. That rumor, which proved to not only be unfounded, but, reoccuring, got my classmates (and me) heated.

I don't think my swabs had it any easier than I did as a swab. I think some of the more damaging, but entirely worthless, tools that my cadre used, were done away with, as we used more professional and objective tools. We could still IT, and probably IT more often than our cadre. Maybe adding those damaging aspects of my swab summer made it "harder", but it certainly wasn't better. We had the tools to make it "hard" and to increase preasure on slack swabs.

On a side note, at one point we were allowed by something at the QuickE Mart (at the time it seemed like a HUGE deal, as we lined up and spent real money), but as the cadre found one of my platoonmates with a candy bar, he was absolutely LIT UP!
 
MemberLG said:
I see this thread getting closed pretty soon . . . .
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It is getting close, but not yet.

Perhaps, a review of the rules is warranted: http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=7976

The rule that gets most people in trouble is this (bold added):
- Do not attack or insult a person in an effort to elicit a negative response. You have a right to disagree, but you must do so in a respectful manner.

Opinions are welcome on this forum. There is nothing wrong with lively discussion.
The topic in this thread is a touchy subject so this is a reminder to be respectful of other people's opinions and to stay away from personal insults.
 
I have not posted here often . I love this forum though and believe it to be a valuable asset for many prospective candidates and their parents. I often refer neighbors, friends etc to this site when they express interest in SA. With that said ..this thread was recently brought to my attention by someone I referred here. I was taken back by some of the comments in regards to females. The gentleman I referred said "When field force reps make comments that are derogatory to female cadets I can see it is not a place for my daughter." Would ask everyone to remember this is a forum for prospective candidates and parents. Maybe read some of the recent threads and posts thru their eyes.
 
Absent from most replies is the responsibility of basic cadets to get with the program, do their best, and put out 100%. Most do and for these cadets basic is hard enough! There will always be the 5% who don't... maybe more these days... who will game the system and do as little as possible, not caring about pushback from the system or their peers. For them, you can't make basic hard enough On a personal note, we were very glad to see a picture of our basic DS with a smile!

BenTherr said:
Here are some words from someone I respect, regarding ability to do pushups or bench press or get yelled at,
versus being able to earn respect and win the fight: SOCOM's Major Gen. Bennet Sacolick said "the days of Rambo are over," as he made the point that it takes brains as well as brawn to be a modern day Special Operator.
"
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Regarding Rambo, I hope future combat is not viewed as community policing in the bad part of town. There are some big players on the world scene who want to project force and are arming themselves to "kill people and break their stuff." See Knife Fight in Aviation Week, July 15, 2013, p 15.
 
MomWPgirl said:
I have not posted here often . I love this forum though and believe it to be a valuable asset for many prospective candidates and their parents. I often refer neighbors, friends etc to this site when they express interest in SA. With that said ..this thread was recently brought to my attention by someone I referred here. I was taken back by some of the comments in regards to females. The gentleman I referred said "When field force reps make comments that are derogatory to female cadets I can see it is not a place for my daughter." Would ask everyone to remember this is a forum for prospective candidates and parents. Maybe read some of the recent threads and posts thru their eyes.
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Which comments were those? I haven't seen anything on here I'd say was derogatory toward females as a gender. An anecdote about one female failing to meet the standard is just that...a remark about ONE. If someone extends that to a condemnation of females in general, then that is a personal perspective issue. If the story had been about a male, I doubt anyone would have thought it to be a blanket condemnation of men.

As for the photos...they were a publicly released illustration of new cadets falling out in Central Area and eating candy, nothing more and nothing less. To paint them as anything else is to bend facts to fit your own emotional agenda.
 
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