New Policies

Glad to hear the last couple of alums are in agreement. Always good to hear from you.:thumb:
 
I was an IC (girl's tennis) my first 2 years, and while it was nice sitting at ramps, the level of unproffessional behavior at so many of the surrounding tables bothered me even as a 4 degree (men's tennis constantly threw tomatoes at us...funny, but really?). When I left the team and started sitting with my squadron, it definitely was a positive change for me. Being an IC is hard work, yes, but there are plenty of other "perks" that make far more sense.

I also think this is a good decision and I hope it lasts. The key to making it happen smoothly will be the attitudes of the current team captains.
 
ICs and non-ICs basically go through two different training routes at the Academy. ICs miss 4-dig training sessions, meals with their squadron, and just about every Silver Weekend event under the sun. Non-ICs get to enjoy all of those things because they aren't NCAA athletes. 4-dig ICs miss out on getting beat by upperclassmen during morning minutes (at least they did when I was there...do they even get beat during minutes anymore?). 3-dig ICs get fridges while their non-IC counterparts have to wait another year for that privilege. ICs returning from athletic events sometimes even get crew rest! These things contribute to the infamous T-Zo Gap - the social separation between ICs and non-ICs.

I could never stand how much class ICs could afford to miss. It wasn't that they were able to miss class; it's that any non-IC who ever wanted to participate in a widely-known athletic event had to jump through fiery hoops and walk across lava before he or she could do the same. Any IC could get out of class - SCAs came down from their coaches and off they went, no questions asked. To put it in perspective, I know a guy who had to fight tooth and nail to run the Leadville 100. He sent up an SCA request to miss a day of classes and received approval from all but one of his instructors. The instructor was the Dept Head for some fuzzy class and said the class was too valuable for this ambitious runner to miss. His chain of command and the Marathon Club OIC pushed for him to go on this event, and finally the Dept Head approved his SCA. So this guy goes and runs the 100-mile ultramarathon in 29 hours - an impressive time in a race in which less than 50% of the daring entrants finish. Some higher-up hears about this and invites him to run as a USAFA representative in the AF Marathon at Wright-Patt. Should be a no-brainer, right? Nope - the same Dept Head refused to sign a second SCA. Missing one class was generous enough; missing two was unthinkable! Long story short, no amount of support would get the Dept Head to budge, and he didn't get to represent the Academy at the AF Marathon. But when ANY other IC came along with an SCA for ANY athletic event, there's no way the Dept Head could refuse. There's your T-Zo gap right there.

As for ramps, I would see things going on at those tables that would have caught the swift attention of an AMT or AOC at any other table. Food throwing and disgusting uniforms were the two big things, like the others have said. It definitely created a culture where non-ICs felt ICs received unfair privilege. I'm in favor of getting rid of ramps and moving them back to squad tables.

ICs work their tails off to excel in their sports. And I'm sure they go on to become excellent officers at the same rate non-ICs do. But it sure breeds cynicism during those four years when ~25% of the CW goes through a markedly different path toward earning those bars, with markedly better privileges.
 
LBloom and others, thanks for sharing the insights on the separate paths for ICs at AFA.

Hijack Alert: :wink:

So can someone share if that sort of separation occurs at the two D3 SAs or the D3 SMCs like Norwich, et al?

(To my knowledge it does not, or not nearly to the same extent)
 
MedB said:
LBloom and others, thanks for sharing the insights on the separate paths for ICs at AFA.

Hijack Alert: :wink:

So can someone share if that sort of separation occurs at the two D3 SAs or the D3 SMCs like Norwich, et al?

(To my knowledge it does not, or not nearly to the same extent)
Click to expand...

At CGA, the separation certainly doesn't exist to this extent. Companies sit together most of the time for meals. The only exceptions, generally, are baffet style meals, when tables have been secured (some tables aren't used for meals, they generally rotated), or "training meals". Training meals are the closest thing that your describing, but they are on game days, occur at a slightly different time than everyone else, and are a different meal (carbohydrates). Look, we has training meals for JV soccer, and it was only game days.

The only other difference is during some of the summer trainings, football players specifically, are only a schedule that allows them to be back in New London a little earlier for practice to start. That doesn't mean they aren't with non-football players, they're just scheduled so that they're in a group that allows them to be back in time.

As annoyed as a I was by the football teams desire to discipline their own... but nothing approaches the stuff your describing.

There isn't a true division between varsity athletes and clubs/inter company (IC) athletes. In fact one of the Coast Guard Academy's most popular sporting events were the Friday night CGA hockey games (club sport).

That said, your classmates are your classmates and your company-mates were your company-mates... we didn't really think along the lines of sports.
 
IC Gap

I don't know near as much as the rest of you old timers but as the father of a new C4C IC, I can tell you his only true complaint for basic was his ability to get enough food. He said he lived on Boost and the first thing he purchased after Acceptance was cups of noddles for his room so he would not have to go to Mitchell Hall any time it was not mandatory. With the energy he has to put out as an IC, having a table where he could eat unmolested is worth its weight in gold.
Regards
John
 
A) BCT is BCT. The focus is training and plenty of people needed supplements, IC and not.
B) I was never bothered at dinner in Mitch's. we were at ease so could eat freely and as much as desired without being bothered, just not allowed to talk unless with permission. The ICs ate together so their 4 dogs always talked with them. Rest of us ate merrily. If someone didn't want to stay, could take food back to the room.
C) As I continue to reinforce what eating is like and how hard it is to starve one's self, notice the stark difference in opinions from all of us alums and the parents.
 
I asked my DD about the new policy. In her words " no big deal." Now my thoughts: When you are a 4C you are restricted to your squad area so she was limited to time she could spend with her friends on the team since they were in different squads, except at practice or at meets. Now last year as a 3C she was free to hang with squad and team friends. She always participated in all squad activities if she was physically present. Ne:thumb:ver a TZO gap with her. Some people paint IC's with a broad brush.
 
DC roomed with ICs during BCT 1 and C4C year. Some ICs used their status to intentionally elude trainings and beatings. Most did not. My DS's roommate received exactly 1 prop and wings pin after Recognition. He purposely used his participation in athletics at every opportunity to evade squadron trainings. In any organization there will be those that skirt the rules. DS's BCT roommate is a football IC. He played as a C4C and was a starter last year. He actively pursued leadership opportunities within the squadron and was available for every training time that was not in conflict with his training schedule.

Also, most of you know the 20/80 rule; 20% of cadets do 80% of the work. Eventually you are recognized for who you are. It is no different at USAFA. The cadets know it all works out in the end so they tend to get less upset than their parents. USAFA is training cadets to improvise, adapt and overcome obstacles. If they are losing too much weight, they are monitored during BCT and provided with the prescribed amount of BOOST (my NARP son drank 3 per day). During the academic year, there is plenty of food available at all 3 meals. The cadets figure out what works for them. USAFA has been doing this for a while so they have a good idea of what they are doing. If an issue arises, it is the cadet's responsibility to address it through the appropriate channels.
 
I understand losing weight is clearly a concern for some cadets/families during BCT. But I just have to share this story...

Our new C4C DS was pretty ripped before he went to BCT. Not huge, but the kind of long and lean muscular type with spider-web vein covered forearms and deeply corded wide shoulders. I'm sure you know the type.

He put ON weight during BCT; 7 lbs to be exact.

I promise we fed him at home, honest! My grocery bills can be submitted for irrefutable proof of that claim. :shake:

In any case, he always had all the food he could possibly eat and more during BCT... enough to put on 7lbs.
 
I'll throw this out there...

I haven't had an issue getting enough food so far. I'm not a 6'5" football player, but there was a TON of food available during basic. A guy in my flight put on 15-17 pounds during basic, and he isn't the only one who gained. I can only think of a couple times off hand where seconds weren't easily available, but my cadre would usually bend over backwards to make sure any extra food was redirected to us.

Once you figure out table decorum, it's pretty easy to put a lot of food away while sitting at attention.
 
The new policy and seating arrangments were put to the test today. There were two football players at my table and neither of them got enough food. As a matter of fact, I didn't even get enough food. I'm not saying anyone was starving, just not as full.
 
There are food carts with extra servings of lunch near the front of Mitchell Hall. All you need to do is get up and grab another tray for your table. I'm with the grads. I hate double standards, and this eliminates a big one.
 
Last edited:
Take it from a new 4-dig:

You can get enough food. Period. You can go to the C-store and get food. You can grab food from Mitch's and bring it back to your room. You can have food shipped to you. You can KEEP food in your room. I know i've aready got a sizable and growing stash.

There is no excuse to not having enough food. If anything, I have too much.

For the record, I am a NARP.
 
Some of the ICs in my squad were vocally upset about no more ramps. Others didn't say much one way or the other.

Personally, I like it--it keeps the ICs with us, and now EVERYONE gets to eat at ease all the time. Hua!

There is plenty of food. In buffet style, you can always go back for more. At the few sit-downs we've had, we've occasionally run out of something, but we can usually "tactically acquire" it from another table.
 
There was always a bit of 'why do they get special treatment'...even in the real AF you hear the 'why don't pilots have to wear blues' etc.

I played football in HS, so I know the level of work/pain required in practice. There was no way I was ever going to play it again.

The AFA ICs practiced every day and had practice and games on the weekend. (football anyway, I can't speak for fencing). The rest of the wing had intramurals a couple of days a week, and weekends off unless a parade, inspection, or home game...but even those wouldn't take all weekend. So a lot more free time than the ICs.

SMACKs at lunch were required to get 'adequate' nourishment, but when you are being harassed the entire meal, it makes it hard to eat comfortably. So it makes sense to let the IC C4Cs to escape to get a tiny reward for the hard work they are putting in for the cadet wing.

In my freshman squadron there were two IC football players...one washed out for academics (oh and the ICs had to maintain a minimum GPA)...the other one was Chad Hennings. He did very well, both on and off the field.

So the AFA Falcons football team is part of the TEAM also and requires the same camaraderie and support. How many cadets today complain when they are required to go to a home game in uniform? How many cadets go to non mandatory sporting events and cheer on their TEAM?

In my opinion that is the gap.

I don't care how they set up the tables as long as it isn't some knee jerk reaction...
 
One problem I had with ramps was that it excluded club teams. There are some cadets that just participate in intramurals. However, there are PLENTY of very athletic and competitive club teams that are on par with IC teams but don't receive any of the privileges. For instance, the triathlon team has members who routinely put up podium performances in Ironman triathlons (2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, 26.2 mile run). One female 2013 2LT is now ranked 3rd in the WORLD. Why do IC lacrosse/golf/volleyball/football need to sit at rest while members of the triathlon/marathon/nordic skiing/rugby club teams manage to get enough food at their squadron tables?
 
Trust me...this debate has been ongoing since the Class of 1959 wasn't the only class at USAFA!

It's one of my "hot buttons" as well as the non-military looking cadet that is waivered ALL USAF fitness standards because he's on the football team and they want a 280+ pound lineman. I love watching Falcon football, and I'm as rabid a fan as they come but...to see a cadet with his belly hanging and obscuring his gig line...uh, NO.

And I'm going to stop now because I will wind myself up and there's no point to it. This debate/argument/double standard is as old as USAFA.

I personally like the change.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
(Dinosaur on the board)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top