NORWICH vs VMI

Michael_T

NU '26
Joined
Oct 29, 2020
Messages
692
Today, I received an email from VMI telling me that I still have time to complete my application for Fall 2022, since I had began it, but never finalized it.

This did get me thinking that I would go ahead and do it, and see how it all goes

Does anyone know if VMI will match other financial offers from schools such as NORWICH? I’ve heard this from some friends, but I wasn’t able to find a concrete answer anywhere.

I will reach out to admissions tomorrow, as I was too late to do so today.

Any information on this will definitely help!


Please Advise
 
I hope you take this as a compliment.

Anyone that thought the latest final decision , after the final decisions before it, was the actually final decision , has no idea of your ability to find additional options to consider. :)

My experience is that college coaches may opt to meet or beat someone else’s offer to bag a recruit because they are actively trying to recruit someone.

but I have never heard of universities in general and routinely making the same or better (non sports recruit) scholarship offer another school made just because the other school made it.

Norwich, is well know for very generous offers. I assume this is because of how they price things or they have a load of scholarship money sitting around.

Good Luck no matter where you end up
 
I hope you take this as a compliment.

Anyone that thought the latest final decision , after the final decisions before it, was the actually final decision , has no idea of your ability to find additional options to consider. :)

My experience is that college coaches may opt to meet or beat someone else’s offer to bag a recruit because they are actively trying to recruit someone.

but I have never heard of universities in general and routinely making the same or better (non sports recruit) scholarship offer another school made just because the other school made it.

Norwich, is well know for very generous offers. I assume this is because of how they price things or they have a load of scholarship money sitting around.

Good Luck no matter where you end up
Norwich is private. VMI and Citadel are not. Norwich has much more leeway in how they dispense funds.
 
Not sure if you are outside of Virginia , but our experience was that VMI did not match Norwich’s offer . We did appeal the financial offer and DD was recruited to swim for VMI , and it still did not match Norwich . It is very reasonable tuition if you are a VA resident .
 
Norwich is private. VMI and Citadel are not. Norwich has much more leeway in how they dispense funds.
Excellent point about that pricing.

NOVA often stands for northern va so maybe instate tuition with the OP.

Either way more exciting adventure with this op as far as another where should I go thread.
 
Thanks now I do remember the past advice for you to look for an instate Indiana school which might be more affordable .

Did you not get a great offer from Norwich? Where you not really happy with your visit? Was money and school debt not a big concern for you in the past?

Good luck on that application. I assume you will be wasting your time and effort but only one way to be sure.
 
I really do not understand your hesitation. You have announced that you are going to the Citadel, Norwich, and enlisting. Now weeks before school starts you are publicly discussing applying to VMI with out of state tuition. We cannot say what financial aid package they will offer, but based on other posts on this forum by students who dreamed of attending VMI but balk at the out of state rate, I do not believe they will be as generous as Norwich.

I have mentioned this to you before, but if cost is an issue and you are so undecided about reapplying to the Naval Academy, or enlisting, or continuing on to an SMC, I would look into the self prep SAP or Marine PLC programs at MMI for your freshman year. My oldest went there and I can recommend MMI 100%. I am very certain they will give you a nice financial package if you are accepted. A year at MMI will help you determine if you want to pursue another 3 years at an SMC, if a service academy is feasible, maybe start Marine PLC at MMI to become an officer or maybe you want to take the 2 year diploma and go on to the Marines as enlisted. Or, switch to Army and do ECP at MMI with that scholarship which is an excellent deal. MMI has a great reputation, great connections and I think would be a good start for you.
 
Good luck on that application. I assume you will be wasting your time and
I looked into the culture, and I pretty much noticed it's not for me, so no... I won't complete the application, the only reason it came to my mind was the fact that VMI admissions sent me an email telling me I still have time to complete my application that I never submitted like 5 months ago.

Yes, I received an immense financial-aid package from NU, only paying 5k/year, including federal loans.
 
I think a degree from VMI is more prestigious and the alumni bonds are tighter, but with that offer, I highly recommend you going to Norwich. That is outstanding, good luck
 
I'll add a few brief comments that may be of value in facing this happy dilemma--if these are off the mark, my apologies. Full disclosure, I am Norwich grad...but I will do my best to remain objective. So, which school will provide greater benefit? It depends when you ask and the metric you are referencing, i.e., 10, 20, 30 years from now?...how much money you are likely to make or how high a rank you might attain in the military? In the end, Norwich and VMI provide largely facsimile outcomes in terms of credibility as a commissioned officer and eventual earnings across one's lifetime. In terms of recognition in the military, I know that Norwich commissions a greater percentage of graduates as officers and in most years commissions more 2LTs into the army than any other institution besides USMA--which is notable given the comparative size of TAMU's Corps of Cadets. With regard to VMI, in a regional context (the Southeastern United States), has greater name recognition and, in a similar geographic context, VMI has a stronger corporate recruiting record...at least regionally. Within the military, both schools are considered to be superb institutions, but, in truth, reputation comes down to the graduate who happens to be standing in front of you at that moment. Nonetheless, if DoD policy is any indication, both Norwich and VMI are extremely well regarded.

So, is there an advantage to one school over the other? It depends--and on a number of factors that shift in relation to the specific advantage being sought. I can authoritatively say that my Norwich background has served me quite well. I have friends that went to VMI that can say the same thing. I think VMI may provide a slightly more intense military program while Norwich tends to err on the side of having a comparatively more intense academic program, though these differences are marginal and neither institution is a "slouch" in either category. I know that when I applied to PhD programs as a lieutenant (that was 50-million years ago), my Norwich degree was well regarded and my GPA was considered an accurate indicator of my actual performance, as Norwich has done a great deal to fight grade inflation (which, as a sitting college president and former professor, I can say is a factual phenomenon in many of the nation's most elite schools). My education at Norwich also paid off in the course of my PhD program at the University of California, under a well-regarded dissertation advisor who had notably high standards (and is now a good friend). Perhaps more importantly, the lessons in followership, leadership, integrity, character, effective management, and good humor I gained at Norwich paid off handsomely in every job and professional challenge I have undertaken over the past 20 years (class of 2002!). At the same time, I think my friends from VMI could say similar things; however, I know I can say these things with regard to Norwich.

Clear as mud? Good, that is a dilemma leaders regularly encounter--how not to make a bad decision when only good options present themselves. It is a test most second lieutenants and ensigns fail on a regular basis and leads them to being better O-3s.

Very respectfully,
 
Great comments above, but commissioning rates and numbers are a bit off—next to the service academies, VMI typically commissions the most Army and Marine Corps officers. However, there is some variance on those numbers from year to year.
Completely agree with the fact that between the 2 schools, there really isn’t a bad choice.
 
BLUF: Great response. Yes, these are both great schools, I completely agree. The most important part is in the final paragraph.
Ok, none of what I am about to say has any bearing on much, but being into enrollment figures as a sort of professional hobby (I'm the president of a public college--and every college president I know makes enrollments figures a daily part of their life...to include Saturday and Sunday) I did some minor research. At the same time, the answer(s) roll(s) out as such--these two institutions have almost facsimile absolute enrollments, Cadet enrollments, and commissions granted.

While not attempting to belabor the point, I think we both have claim to "being right" (though, the most important part is supporting both these institutions, as they play a critical role in officer accessions for DoD)...in a sense. I took a look to make sure I was not putting bad info out into the ether, and the latest DoD figures show VMI has just under 800 enrollments in its AROTC program. Here is where that figure got interesting: of the roughly 800 enrolled in VMI's AROTC program, approximately--approximately--100 of those enrollments come from Wash. & Lee, SVU, and Mary Baldwin College, all which have a cross-town agreement with the Army and VMI allowing their students to participate in AROTC. Thus, roughly this side or that side of 700 VMI Cadets are enrolled in AROTC. The 800 figure that has been thrown around in the past two or so years is a bit of a misnomer, since it includes enrollees not attending VMI. In the same vein, and for the same period, Norwich enrolled roughly 760 Norwich Cadets in its AROTC program, while a smattering more were drawn from Dartmouth Univ. and a couple smaller nursing programs in Vermont. Norwich's numbers ran up to slightly over 800 total, in terms of absolute enrollments. The point? As I tell my Board of Trustees every time they ask me about enrollments: "it depends upon the day; 4,400 today, maybe roughly 5,100 tomorrow. What matters is who has their rear in a seat on census day (the date the state uses to determine how much to fund us based on FTEs). Ultimately, we are in the business of producing graduates, not enrollments (we actually get a "bump" in funding based upon completions)." I think the same applies here. So, taking that to its logical conclusion, what about the number of AROTC commissions? Figures for this CY are not yet available, as some will not make the migration from Cadet to 2LT until some point over the summer, for sundry reasons--despite the fact they have received their degree and "graduated" from either VMI or Norwich. That said, the numbers fluctuate year to year and, as you quite correctly point out, it is a sea-saw between VMI, TAMU, Norwich, and the Citadel for which school produced the most 2LTs for the Army.

I think one issue is how do we continue to expand the presence of the US military on campus? What amazes me, particularly sitting in the seat I do at work, is the intellectual corruption that seems to pervade college campuses (I see it, every day) that supporting, serving in, or recognizing the achievements of the military is both inconsistent with the principles and purpose of higher education, while also representing a moral frustration that leads to the condemnation of the military as an institution. Though I am an academic (I'm also still an officer in terms of fidelity to my country and service to others), I do not understand the pursuit of an intellectual purity and perfectionism that haunts the psyches of a majority of scholars...in both word and publication, I take sharp notice of the strain of philosophy which holds scholarship and the institutions which support such scholarship are inconsistent with the military--or, more simply put, colleges do not owe anything to the military since the military--in their mind--did nothing for them. As I regularly point out, however, "the enemy gets a vote" and "context matters." If not for the struggles which produced the modern notion of scholarship, free speech, and the rule of law not man, neither colleges nor democracy (Western or global) would exist...and without those things, there is no scholarship. And the people who decided those struggles and continue to defend the ideals of free speech (and the ability to speak truth to power), rule of law, and the space to be intellectually honest are those men and women who took it upon themselves to "pick up a weapon and stand a post." While I have lots of thoughts as to why this is the case, I will not engage in said speculation here. So, with that being the case, I will leave it at that, except for this--I think the seminal question is "how do we increase exposure and understanding of the military on campuses beyond the SMCs and SAs?" That is the challenge.


Very respectfully,
 
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Norwich is private. VMI and Citadel are not. Norwich has much more leeway in how they dispense funds.

One particular strength of ALL the SMCs is their alumni network (Citadel, Norwich, VMI, TAMU, in particular). Part and parcel to this strength is the exceptionally robust record of alumni giving to their alma mater that tends to accompany the virility of those alumni networks. Basically, SMC grads give lots of money to their alma mater. In fact, they are almost "notorious" for it. As the president of a public college, I would be thrilled to have a 10% giving rate for all alumni. For instance, the strongest percentage for all ten University of California campuses is 12%--12, man, 12--which is at UC Berkeley (UCLA, UC Merced, UC Santa Barbara, and UCSD were near, but did not quite reach, that 12% number and are also considered to have excellent rates of alumni giving). Simultaneously, SMCs boast rates triple what the best civilian colleges post. 35% to 50% participation rates are not out of the ordinary in good years for SMCs--and near 80% for reunion classes in the 20/30/40/50 year anniversary celebrations.

Why does this matter? Since I am intimately familiar with Norwich, let me use it as an example and thus answer the question about why Norwich has the money it does. Norwich has done a tremendous job of cultivating alumni relations and yielding both broad alumni giving and high-dollar gifts (corporate and alumni). Their president for nearly 30 years (he recently retired) was a USCG Rear Admiral named Richard Schneider (full disclosure, Rich and I are friends and email each other fairly regularly, something which may skew my assessment--however, I know of not a single person in higher education who does not have the utmost personal respect for him and professional admiration for his deft ability in the field of "Institutional Development," as fundraising is known in the business). Because of Rich's (and his development staff) effective work in bringing hundreds of millions of dollars (perhaps nearing $1B) in alumni, independent benefactor, and corporate gifts to the university over the roughly 28 years he was at the helm (had to use a nautical term, given he is a Coastie) of America's oldest SMC, Norwich is able to fund the lion's share of the EFC for a high number of its Cadets (thereby avoiding reliance upon federal loans, grants, and subsidies), and the cost--in its entirety--for a meaningful portion of those Cadets. At the same time, Rich was able to appropriately position Norwich's financial portfolio so that it was both secure and grew at a rate which ensured annual withdrawal replication, but nearly always resulted in high yield ROI. What's that mean in non-college president BS speak? It means the funds Norwich has in liquid assets (unobligated cash in the bank or invested) is safe from catastrophic loss due to markets tanking, is ensured growth figures which exceed the withdrawn funds used to provide Cadet financial aid, and in nearly every year has actually earned a notably better return than the average of investment earnings for America's most prominent colleges. This is why he was there for 28 years.

As I tell folks all the time when they ask me what it takes to be successful as a college president: "it takes two things: good instincts; and, the ability to remember that no president was ever fired for bad curriculum. But I have never known a president to survive two consecutive years of budget shortfalls."

Ok, so, why do I say all of this? Norwich has a ridiculous amount of money in its institutional endowment, and an equally impressive stash in its unrestricted student aid fund. Norwich has and will increasingly have a deep well to draw financial aid from.

***A word to the wise parent(s) of a college-bound student: no matter what type of school your DD and/or DS are considering attending, the best schools have three things: 1) strong alumni AND corporate giving; 2) good aid packages; and 3) a disproportionately high ROI for their education in the 20 to 50 year post-graduation range (between 0 to 20 years the data is both fairly meager/inconsistent, and most grads are building their families, lives, and careers during those years--and professional success and enduring personal happiness will come for them later. Remember how it was when you were between 21 and 41? Exactly!). Look for these things with an eagle-eye. As an industry insider, I assure you these indicators are perhaps the most effective in correlating quality of education provided, that institution's alumni perception of their experience and value of what they received (and, hence, how confident they eventually become in the job market), and how the rest of the world perceives said institution (this relates most directly to corporate giving). Institutions that tend to perform well in these areas tend to have the most successful graduates. SMCs and SAs tend to blow the competition out of the water in these regards, across the board. While these are Heuristics, they have proven to be good indicators, nonetheless.***

Very respectfully,
 
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One particular strength of ALL the SMCs is their alumni network (Citadel, Norwich, VMI, TAMU, in particular). Part and parcel to this strength is the exceptionally robust record of alumni giving to their alma mater that tends to accompany the virility of those alumni networks. Basically, SMC grads give lots of money to their alma mater. In fact, they are almost "notorious" for it. As the president of a public college, I would be thrilled to have a 10% giving rate for all alumni. For instance, the strongest percentage for all ten University of California campuses is 12%--12, man, 12--which is at UC Berkeley (UCLA, UC Merced, UC Santa Barbara, and UCSD were near, but did not quite reach, that 12% number and are also considered to have excellent rates of alumni giving). Simultaneously, SMCs boast rates triple what the best civilian colleges post. 35% to 50% participation rates are not out of the ordinary in good years for SMCs--and near 80% for reunion classes in the 20/30/40/50 year anniversary celebrations.

Why does this matter? Since I am intimately familiar with Norwich, let me use it as an example and thus answer the question about why Norwich has the money it does. Norwich has done a tremendous job of cultivating alumni relations and yielding both broad alumni giving and high-dollar gifts (corporate and alumni). Their president for nearly 30 years (he recently retired) was a USCG Rear Admiral named Richard Schneider (full disclosure, Rich and I are friends and email each other fairly regularly, something which may skew my assessment--however, I know of not a single person in higher education who does not have the utmost personal respect for him and professional admiration for his deft ability in the field of "Institutional Development," as fundraising is known in the business). Because of Rich's (and his development staff) effective work in bringing hundreds of millions of dollars (perhaps nearing $1B) in alumni, independent benefactor, and corporate gifts to the university over the roughly 28 years he was at the helm (had to use a nautical term, given he is a Coastie) of America's oldest SMC, Norwich is able to fund the lion's share of the EFC for a high number of its Cadets (thereby avoiding reliance upon federal loans, grants, and subsidies), and the cost--in its entirety--for a meaningful portion of those Cadets. At the same time, Rich was able to appropriately position Norwich's financial portfolio so that it was both secure and grew at a rate which ensured annual withdrawal replication, but nearly always resulted in high yield ROI. What's that mean in non-college president BS speak? It means the funds Norwich has in liquid assets (unobligated cash in the bank or invested) is safe from catastrophic loss due to markets tanking, is ensured growth figures which exceed the withdrawn funds used to provide Cadet financial aid, and in nearly every year has actually earned a notably better return than the average of investment earnings for America's most prominent colleges. This is why he was there for 28 years.

As I tell folks all the time when they ask me what it takes to be successful as a college president: "it takes two things: good instincts; and, the ability to remember that no president was ever fired for bad curriculum. But I have never known a president to survive two consecutive years of budget shortfalls."

Ok, so, why do I say all of this? Norwich has a ridiculous amount of money in its institutional endowment, and an equally impressive stash in its unrestricted student aid fund. Norwich has and will increasingly have a deep well to draw financial aid from.

***A word to the wise parent(s) of a college-bound student: no matter what type of school your DD and/or DS are considering attending, the best schools have three things: 1) strong alumni AND corporate giving; 2) good aid packages; and 3) a disproportionately high ROI for their education in the 20 to 50 year post-graduation range (between 0 to 20 years the data is both fairly meager/inconsistent, and most grads are building their families, lives, and careers during those years--and professional success and enduring personal happiness will come for them later. Remember how it was when you were between 21 and 41? Exactly!). Look for these things with an eagle-eye. As an industry insider, I assure you these indicators are perhaps the most effective in correlating quality of education provided, that institution's alumni perception of their experience and value of what they received (and, hence, how confident they eventually become in the job market), and how the rest of the world perceives said institution (this relates most directly to corporate giving). Institutions that tend to perform well in these areas tend to have the most successful graduates. SMCs and SAs tend to blow the competition out of the water in these regards, across the board. While these are Heuristics, they have proven to be good indicators, nonetheless.***

Very respectfully,
My point of fact was not a criticism. DD had Norwich all set up. It was her first choice above the others. By a wide margin.
 
My point of fact was not a criticism. DD had Norwich all set up. It was her first choice above the others. By a wide margin.
Oh, I didn't think it was a criticism at all...I was only providing the back story that further supported what you posted. You were spot-on. I think we are actually in violent agreement. That's all I intended by my posting. My apologies if I gave any impression otherwise; if so, it was not intended.
 
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Oh, I didn't think it was a criticism at all...I was only providing the back story that further supported what you posted. You were spot-on. I think we are actually in violent agreement. That's all I intended by my posting. My apologies if I gave any impression otherwise; if so, it was not intended.
Have a fine evening!
 
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