NROTC instructor problem

Behawkins5

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Feb 14, 2020
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I’m not sure what to do. The instructor is new and has made this program USMC intensive. Students are getting hurt. Carrying heavy i poi on two mile runs, USMC style everything, including the CFT...Multiple injuries. Instructor is a cross fit nut...and is pushing this culture on these students who are mostly engineer types. They will NEVER do any of this in the fleet.

what should I tell him? So far he’s not injured...but this is a risk to every student in the program. I don’t want to make him a target...
 
I disagree that they won’t do this in the fleet. I can’t tell you the number or HR, supply, SWO, sub, intel, IP officers from the Navy who served in Individual Augment roles and did tours running convoys and other things in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pilots do tours as FACs and EOD, SEALs do this stuff all the time. What about if your DS is a boarding officer on a ship who is leading others... climbing up and down nets, leading teams boarding ships and possibly engaging with bad folks. Subs send officers to dive schools all the time. That is an intensive school. Being in top shape can be the difference in life and death or them saving one of their sailors.

Cross Fit... if not done right can be bad. Mids getting hurt is not a good thing. Some senior Mids in the Unit can speak to the Officer about their concerns over injuries. It could be lack of being in shape is leading to these. It could be poor form. The bottom line is this about pushing them mentally and physically, making decisions while exhausted and learning that they can push themselves further than they think. Being honest, an engineer major has nothing to do with this. When they get to the fleet in whatever their role is, no one cares their major is. Sure it’s a culture clash between Navy and Marine Corps, but they will encounter all kinds of leaders in the fleet that they have to adapt to. All the stuff you mention seems like standard training that every Mid at USNA encounters all the time regardless of major or desired service selection.

I apologize if my response comes off as harsh. It’s not intended to, but this is his thing to deal with. I have spent my fair share of time in combat zones and seen what happens when people are out of shape or are mentally weak. Regardless of rank, branch or MOS/career designation, you never know where your career will take you. He has a chain of command and he can express concerns via them.
 
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no I appreciate it. I’m hearing of significant injuries related to the 40 pound packs. A young woman was forced to drop because she was injured—requiring her as a junior to payback education costs. It happened on that COs watch. These are the injuries that are life changing and career ending and they happening because of poorly educated trainers not catching poor form. As you stated...rushing this and poor form can lead to devastating injury—but no one will speak up because they are terrified of retaliation. This unit is experiencing poor morale now...and the cohesiveness-teamwork is slipping. DS is a junior, and I’ve said the sane things...you’ll have bad bosses in your future use this to learn how to get through it. He will get through it but the unit has lost a lot of the teamwork it once had. It’s hard to watch this leadership destroy the unit.
Thank you for your input.
 
A 40 lb ruck is extremely light. My body armor, no ruck, with a full load was well over 40 lbs. I walked around in that to just get a meal or walk to the bathroom. Your DS is a junior. He needs to be speaking with the seniors about the concern over injuries and what can be done to reduce them. It does sound like a culture clash and a very different leader than their last one. He is a junior in his unit, he knows how to put together a pitch that is sound. Poor morale is an issue and the best way that can be demonstrated is turnover numbers. Complaining the stuff is hard and they are Navy engineers is not a valid argument, speaking in terms of injuries and turnover is data that is valid and how can they work to make adjustments to the training to reduce injuries and increase retention. Just my two cents.
 
@NavyHoops “What about if your DS is a boarding officer on a ship who is leading others... climbing up and down nets, leading teams boarding ships and possibly engaging with bad folks.”
Yep, true story.

On 9 Feb a boarding party from USS Normandy seized Iranian weapons which no doubt were headed to our enemies. Navy ships do this more often than people realize.
 
Devil Doc agree 100% on the part about doing this more than people think. Anti piracy ops and searching other vessels is standard operating procedure these days. They wear lots of gear, 40 lbs or more worth to protect themselves, climb up some shady rope ladders and nets to get on some extremely large vessels and then spend hours clearing and searching these ships. Plenty of bad guys out there. Being able to not only make it through these ops (which can happen several times a day) but be able to protect one self is critical. Being in top shape is important. Being able to make decisions, as an officer will be required to do, when you are fatigued, in lots of body armor, in sometimes extremely hot conditions is a critical part of the job.
 
@Behawkins5 - What you are describing may seem out of line but sounds to be consistent with military training. Typically, the physical training at a NROTC unit is run by the enlisted Marine staff who are experienced and know what they are doing. If these sessions are actually run by the Marine Officer it will be an experienced Captain. People can always get hurt doing just about anything, but runs (with or without packs), PFT, CFT, and physical training are all normal and part of the journey. Most likely, the Junior class of Marines are doing a separate and much more intense training session to prepare for their summer event in Quantico.

It is highly unlikely that the young woman who was injured was forced to drop and pay back her scholarship. If injured in training, she would have been put on some type of leave status and if ultimately she washed out for physical reasons it would have been a medical discharge where she wouldn’t have to pay the Government back.

When staff changes at a unit, there is a normal bristle to the change of culture. This sounds like the situation here. Your DS and others are surprised, frustrated and alarmed – but I am confident the new instructor has good intentions. I doubt his leadership is destroying the unit.

You asked how to advise your DS: As @NavyHoops states, he needs to use the chain of command to move his concerns up to the professional staff. It needs to be done with tact and professional bearing. After that, he just needs to put his head down and embrace the suck. He will ultimately get in better shape which is a good thing. If there are teaching moments on proper form he could take the opportunity to help his peers.
 
I’m not sure what to do. The instructor is new and has made this program USMC intensive. Students are getting hurt. Carrying heavy i poi on two mile runs, USMC style everything, including the CFT...Multiple injuries. Instructor is a cross fit nut...and is pushing this culture on these students who are mostly engineer types. They will NEVER do any of this in the fleet.

what should I tell him? So far he’s not injured...but this is a risk to every student in the program. I don’t want to make him a target...
Yikes, which unit/university?!?
 
I've had my fair share of 3 mile ruck runs up our next door mountain in Vermont with a 40lb ruck sack, as well as regular 6 mile ruck marches with 70lb rucks sacks. I have taken a multitude of CFT's since I have been here as well, and this is coming from a Navy mid. I get that every unit in the country is different though.

Honestly, I believe it's created more cohesion within our unit. The Marine Options actually give respect instead of having to give the stereotypical "oh, he's the engineering type."

Injuries are a thing, but most people are able to work through them with rest and some leave. Although, most of our injuries are minor, and nothing like torn acls, and etc.

I've been there with your mid though. It sucks, especially needing to go to class the rest of the day, and having to deal with blisters on my heels without the aid of moleskin I forgot to apply in the morning. It's nice to look back though, and saying you've been able to do it.

It's hard, but rewarding, which is the emotional tempo I'm expecting when come time to hit the fleet. That's good training in my mind, if I am able to feel that tempo.
 
Generally speaking I agree with the responses to @Behawkins5 . Cadets/Mids need to be challenged and a 40lb ruck just isn't that much. My 57-60 year old 5' 2" unathletic wife carried 33-38 lbs along sections of the Appalachian Trail in VA. If his DS feels like he is getting proper instruction about form and technique he should seek it out.

However, if this instructor has Cross Fit blinders and these mids are risking injuries doing unnecessary routines, there is huge problem. If they are rucking on crushed limestone that's one thing. If they are crossing a skree field with 40lbs.+, that's a problem. There'll be plenty of opportunity for that later. The military trains to level of the MOS. Meeting those standards is evidence that the service member has met the basic standards for progressing up the food chain. A kid out of basic is not physically trained to the level of an infantryman and an infantryman is not physically trained to the level of a Ranger or Marine Raider.

My DS's biggest fear while training up for assessments was injuries incurred during training. That's proper anxiety for an O-2 or 3, not a junior in college.
 
An interesting discussion. Physical fitness is important. But the next war can be avoided by diplomacy. And if it can not, the naval war will be won by the nation wealthy enough to build the largest number of missiles and hulls and who is best at cyber warfare. Engineering nerds and diplomats are what we need IMHO. We still need physically fit leaders. But brains are more important than brawn IMHO. The Navy agrees. that’s why they give 85% of ROTC scholarships to tier 1 and tier 2 majors. That’s just the way it is. My DS is more of the physically fit, tall thin charismatic leader type but has no interest in engineering. So I wish it were otherwise, but today’s Navy wants the engineering nerds. They need be just fit enough. Not supermen. This NSI does not seem to get that.
 
Uhhh... I thought the Navy wanted STEM because ships were large complex machines with many subsystems, often including nuclear reactor. Also I didn't think we were discussing NSI.
 
Speaking from experience, NSI was not insanely intense in regards to physical training. We were worked hard, but nothing that wouldn't be expected from the Navy.
 
Uhhh... I thought the Navy wanted STEM because ships were large complex machines with many subsystems, often including nuclear reactor. Also I didn't think we were discussing NSI.
NSI also stands for naval science instructor, which is the primary focus of this thread. And, of course, the Navy wants engineers to run complex ships. That’s what I said. But they do not also need to be Olympic athletes
 
NSI also stands for naval science instructor, which is the primary focus of this thread. And, of course, the Navy wants engineers to run complex ships. That’s what I said. But they do not also need to be Olympic athletes
Dohhhh... but they are usually referred to as PNS. In any case, mon nix.
 
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