NROTC - Marines - Ambitious Academic Plans - LIFE Questions

Queens2020

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Good evening, Everyone.

Hope all of you are staying safe through COVID.
In my prior posts, I've been asking questions about MOS's and all sorts of big ambitious ideas / plans that are YEARS down the road for someone who is just starting college in August. However, I was sitting around my house tonight thinking about things I'm interested in if NROTC works out well for me: A double-major, a minor in Chinese/Russian, or some Clubs.

I was raised to be a Lifelong Student just like the USMC encourages its Marines to be, but I think we can all agree that the Marine Corps isn't exactly known for employing true "academics" (Even with its officers). So here's my question(s):

  1. Would someone who's a braniac in of all things ENGINEERING be seen as... different or someone who doesn't belong in the Marine Corps? Would I be seen as an outcast? Would I receive some opposition?
    1. I know the degree doesn't make the Marine and I know the trick as a young Midshipman and future LT is the patience to be quiet, watch, and learn, BUT STILL... would I be seen differently?
  2. A little off-topic, but I gotta know... Does NROTC life reflect life in the Marine Corps? If not, how is it different? (More laid back? More serious? What?)
  3. I've never really been the quintessential jock or had very thick skin. Any tips on improving that?
I know these are possibly STUPID and CONTROVERSIAL questions, but I think they are worth asking and I think if someone who enters ROTC after me, they would appreciate hearing your thoughts.
Thanks in advance to anyone who answers.
 
I cannot answer your first few questions on being seen differently as any Marine would be a better reference, however knowing my father (a former officer) and his buddies (all officers as well) they could care less about what you would’ve studied in school. A Marine is a Marine and an officer an officer. Your majors may play a factor, but I personally wouldn’t think it’s a big deal. The Corps likes to see a degree that’s about it, leadership is their go to. If we were talking Navy you would most likely be put in that field of study (what you studied in college). My answer to your question would be, No you wouldn’t be treated any different than your fellow midshipmen or LT, maybe except for a few jokes.

NROTC life is still a college life. For the most part you are free to do what you want as any college student, however you will be expected to maintain physical fitness, your branches military regulations (most likely Navy regulations through college, until your commission), etc. That is a reason I’m choosing to participate in NROTC rather than attend USNA. Don’t get me wrong NROTC will prepare you for the Corps just as well; you will still be sent to your summer trainings, attend your military science courses, and PT as a unit. So if you are comparing Academy life and NROTC life, the NROTC route is more laid back.

Lastly I would advise you to PT with the local poolees getting ready for bootcamp. A great source of exercise in a military type environment. The recruiters that PT with the poolees can yell just as loud as any Drill Instructor. That should help, if not you’ll learn quite quick through NROTC and the Drill instructors your unit brings in.

Again any Marine/former Marine would give better answers, as for I have not earned my commission yet. Hopefully this helps, good luck brother, rah.
 
I was raised to be a Lifelong Student just like the USMC encourages its Marines to be, but I think we can all agree that the Marine Corps isn't exactly known for employing true "academics" (Even with its officers). So here's my question(s):

  1. Would someone who's a braniac in of all things ENGINEERING be seen as... different or someone who doesn't belong in the Marine Corps? Would I be seen as an outcast? Would I receive some opposition?
    1. I know the degree doesn't make the Marine and I know the trick as a young Midshipman and future LT is the patience to be quiet, watch, and learn, BUT STILL... would I be seen differently?
  2. A little off-topic, but I gotta know... Does NROTC life reflect life in the Marine Corps? If not, how is it different? (More laid back? More serious? What?)
  3. I've never really been the quintessential jock or had very thick skin. Any tips on improving that?
There are times when I wish my son was a member of this forum but am truly glad he isn’t.
 
I'm not going to address your second question at all, as I'll leave that to those with actual NROTC experience. Note, I have zero experience with the Marine Corps outside of some very brief engagements, but I felt compelled:

Your questions aren't "possibly" controversial, they are controversial. It's not because you asked them, but because of how you phrased them. Questions are rarely outright stupid, but there is always a better way to ask them if you take the time to think about it.

You're young and misinformed so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. For question one, my first piece of advice to you is to not be so naive as to conflate classroom academics with intelligence. To your point about schooling, every officer is required to have at least a bachelor's degree or be in the process of completing one to even be considered for acceptance to a program. Furthermore, don't be surprised if there are plenty of enlisted Marines out there who join with a degree, including a graduate degree, or work to earn one soon after joining. Not having a degree or being interested in engineering does not mean that someone isn't intelligent or uninterested in learning.

Back to "academics," my question to you would be how you would determine order of battle operations, major troop and supply movements, strategic planning for threats 10+ years in the future, or hardening your cyber defenses without intelligent people within an organization to help accomplish those missions? They exist in every service, regardless of the minimum ASVAB requirement to join. It's just as "academic" to understand how to conduct maintenance on Marine Corps aircraft or set up weapons during deployable operations to maximize their effectiveness as it is to have a passion for engineering, it's all about how each individual branch of knowledge is applied. Different missions and tasks require different knowledge and skills.

In most cases, the only way you become an outcast is through your attitude or because you have zero ability to exhibit social skills. No one is going to care what field your baseline knowledge is in, they're going to care about whether you can employ critical thinking skills to a situation while simultaneously demonstrating compassion and competency as a leader. Again, in most cases, the only way you will receive some opposition is if you allow your academic interests to convey a sense of entitlement or arrogance, you aren't a team player, or you are constantly requiring everyone to pick up your slack.

As to not being a jock - you don't have to be an athlete, but you do need to be fit, ESPECIALLY in the Marine Corps. If not, you're going to find yourself falling into that third group I told you would face opposition. Seeing you're a soon to be 4/c midshipman, you're running out of time to make a good first impression so hopefully you've stuck to that 300 PT score you applied with. Fitness is also part of military camaraderie, so make sure you're participating in mandatory and non-mandatory PT - whether it's a run, a ruck, swimming, or some kind of intramural sport.

Thick skin - there is no quick and easy solution to this. The only way to "get better" is to not take everything personally, and to recognize when something is constructive feedback or criticism, and when something is an insult. Regardless of what path you take in life, you are going to screw up, you are going to fail, and someone is going to call you out on it. It could be a Marine Corps DI screaming six inches away from your face or it could be a VP of a corporation sitting across from you in his/her office. You just have to suck it up and adapt.

Bottom line: be yourself, be humble, and be dedicated to your chosen service and the core values associated with it.

PS: There is a Marine Corps Officer MOS dedicated to engineering - MOS 1302: Combat Engineer Officer. Looks like you're not alone in your interests. https://www.thebalancecareers.com/marine-corps-officer-job-descriptions-3356194
 
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I recommend our self-described brainiac OP research DARPA as a target career assignment. There are plenty of warrior-scholar-engineer-scientists in all the services. Marines just make sure everyone is a warrior first, and that’s their brand.

I’m quite serious about this recommendation.



DARPA is a interesting place. If you knew what they did.
 
Well put by @trackandfield08. As a former Marine, I couldn't of said it better myself. Please read and re-read and then read their post again.

I served as a Marine Officer some years ago, but not that many years ago. I was a USNA grad. I spent 5 years in uniform and then spent 10 years working for the Marine Corps in civilian clothes side by side with Marines daily (and traveling to units frequently). I transitioned to another career field a few years ago.
  • It's true no one cares about your degree. Your Marines care what kind of officer you are. Having a 4.0 in engineering does not equate to being a good officer. Sure it means you are book smart, but does that mean you are situationally aware, can make decisions under pressure (like bullets flying, with a radio in hand, calling for fire, and directing your Marines level of pressure), lead with compassion yet still stern and a variety of other things. I had gone to a unit to do some testing with a Comm unit a few years ago. They had a brand new 2ndLt from MIT. He was great at the technology, but he was a total useless officer. In other services that have career fields dedicated to research, developmental engineering, etc. his skill set could be useful. The Marines want leaders first and foremost.
  • Education does come into play as you progress as a Marine. It can mean what you get selected to study for grad school and pay back tours. It could lead to a Masters in System Engineering at NPS with a pay back at Marine Corps System Command or another acquisition or testing command. The Marine Corps does have an Acquisition Secondary MOS now. Many officers who do their payback tour after a Masters will apply for this MOS during that payback tour. It would mean staying in that field afterwards. The majority of developing, building, testing and fielding equipment in the Marine Corps is done by civilians and contracting companies. But there are Marines who play a critical role in providing that "voice of the field", working with various units, approving designs, approving test events, etc.
  • This might not be a very accepted opinion, but this is my opinion alone... out of all the Services it is my opinion that the Marine Corps does not value or push education as much as the other services. The Marine Corps embraces their crayon eating culture. They are great at what they do. I wish we pushed education more for our younger Marines. The Marine Corps, as an officer, is first and foremost about being a leader. I pursued a Masters while in uniform and really no one cared. They have appropriate level PME and reading lists which are great and I highly pushed with my Marines. I also pushed my Marines to take advantage tuition assistance and take college courses, not enough do in my opinion.
  • You will be judged by your Marines on leadership. Your peers will judge you on a variety of things... your leadership, your willingness to help out your peers, PT (this actually plays a big role in how you are viewed by all), etc.
  • I have no idea if NROTC is like the Marine Corps as I was never in NROTC. Your summer at OCS will not be like NROTC. TBS is a weird place to be honest. We always joked and called it halfway house for officers. It's not free reign, but its not someone holding your hand either. When I went through USNA grads had no issue with TBS. Leatherneck prepared us well, we were used to the reindeer games and knew the area. I had two NROTC room mates who struggled (they were the exception and honestly I have no idea what they were doing in the USMC). Most ROTC grads did very well at TBS. The fleet can vary in how life is. Some days it's like a normal job. Other days you are in the field. Maybe you spend a month in 29 Palms or Sweden.
  • You better be fit. It doesn't mean you need to be a D1 athlete, it means you are in shape and can lead runs and hikes. Bodies break in the USMC under weight. Running in shorts and shoes is not that hard in the larger picture, but hiking 20 miles in heat with 100lbs is another story.
  • Thick skin - you better find it. Marines like to joke and are blunt. They will not mince words. Part of the ROTC process is learning how to develop that thick skin as you prepare for OCS. Bottom line, learn to listen, watch and learn. Take feedback and improve.
 
I hope by now you have re-read your post and see how it could be viewed as arrogant and demeaning, although I don't believe that was your intention. To address your degree goals, a double major would be very ambitious. A minor would likely be doable. You will have to submit an academic plan to your NROTC advisor that outlines how you will graduate with your degree in 4 years. If you can fit the extras in during that time, good for you. I have also worked around a lot of very educated and "intelligent" individuals in an academic setting who excel in their academic fields, but are totally lost in the "real" world. No common sense, can't make a restaurant reservation, plan a route to an unfamiliar location or engage in any kind of social human interaction. Lastly, to the thick skin. As others have said, the most important part of that is learning not to take it personally. Everyone screws up. If you screw up, you may get chewed out. If you say or do something stupid, you can expect others to notice and jump on the opportunity to give you grief about it, either good natured ribbing or serious "correction", depending on the situation. If you do not develop that thick skin, life will be hard, no matter where you are. Don't expect it yo develop overnight. I fell like it comes with maturity and self-confidence.
 
Wow! @trackandfield08 and @NavyHoops nailed it.

You didn't tell us if you are on an NROTC or NROTC-MO scholarship.

The only advice I would add is that at this stage of your life you know very little about yourself. You have lived in a cocoon of friends (of your choosing) and family (not of your choosing). Have your time management skills really been tested? Do you know what an Engineering curriculum even looks like? You will need to step up your game in every aspect of your maturation as a mid/student/person.

You come across as a clone of my DS as a 17-18 year old, before heading off the college with an AROTC scholarship to study Chemical Engineering. Academically off the charts. Classic Generalist. He was a varsity tennis player but very much a late bloomer. Competitive to the point of alienating people. Show off extraordinaire. He began to mellow out almost immediately upon arrival at his battalion. There were those who simply weren't impressed by him and those who impressed him with their low key quiet competitiveness.

Today, 9-10 years later, that 18 year old is unrecognizable, but his curiosity and competitive drive are fully intact. He started out in a tech heavy support MOS where he proved his worth and transitioned to a more "Marine like" MOS. Along the way, he has gotten the "what are you doing here" look, but the chip on his shoulder has gotten a little smaller as time has passed. The quote below was like a mantra which I repeated constantly to that 18 year old.

“In my walks, every man* I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.”

― Ralph Waldo Emerson

Of course, coming from Dad it meant nothing, but its truth continues to reveal itself to him as it will to you.

Best of Luck!

*sorry @Capt MJ. But that is the quote.
 
don't be surprised if there are plenty of enlisted Marines out there who join with a degree, including a graduate degree,
A lot of great posts on this thread. I wanted to emphasize this point. DS always said the enlisted with college degrees were his go-to folks when something important, and urgent, needed to be done. Don't be surprised if some of your enlisted are smarter than you.
 
I'm not going to address your second question at all, as I'll leave that to those with actual NROTC experience. Note, I have zero experience with the Marine Corps outside of some very brief engagements, but I felt compelled:

Your questions aren't "possibly" controversial, they are controversial. It's not because you asked them, but because of how you phrased them. Questions are rarely outright stupid, but there is always a better way to ask them if you take the time to think about it.

You're young and misinformed so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. For question one, my first piece of advice to you is to not be so naive as to conflate classroom academics with intelligence. To your point about schooling, every officer is required to have at least a bachelor's degree or be in the process of completing one to even be considered for acceptance to a program. Furthermore, don't be surprised if there are plenty of enlisted Marines out there who join with a degree, including a graduate degree, or work to earn one soon after joining. Not having a degree or being interested in engineering does not mean that someone isn't intelligent or uninterested in learning.

Back to "academics," my question to you would be how you would determine order of battle operations, major troop and supply movements, strategic planning for threats 10+ years in the future, or hardening your cyber defenses without intelligent people within an organization to help accomplish those missions? They exist in every service, regardless of the minimum ASVAB requirement to join. It's just as "academic" to understand how to conduct maintenance on Marine Corps aircraft or set up weapons during deployable operations to maximize their effectiveness as it is to have a passion for engineering, it's all about how each individual branch of knowledge is applied. Different missions and tasks require different knowledge and skills.

In most cases, the only way you become an outcast is through your attitude or because you have zero ability to exhibit social skills. No one is going to care what field your baseline knowledge is in, they're going to care about whether you can employ critical thinking skills to a situation while simultaneously demonstrating compassion and competency as a leader. Again, in most cases, the only way you will receive some opposition is if you allow your academic interests to convey a sense of entitlement or arrogance, you aren't a team player, or you are constantly requiring everyone to pick up your slack.

As to not being a jock - you don't have to be an athlete, but you do need to be fit, ESPECIALLY in the Marine Corps. If not, you're going to find yourself falling into that third group I told you would face opposition. Seeing you're a soon to be 4/c midshipman, you're running out of time to make a good first impression so hopefully you've stuck to that 300 PT score you applied with. Fitness is also part of military camaraderie, so make sure you're participating in mandatory and non-mandatory PT - whether it's a run, a ruck, swimming, or some kind of intramural sport.

Thick skin - there is no quick and easy solution to this. The only way to "get better" is to not take everything personally, and to recognize when something is constructive feedback or criticism, and when something is an insult. Regardless of what path you take in life, you are going to screw up, you are going to fail, and someone is going to call you out on it. It could be a Marine Corps DI screaming six inches away from your face or it could be a VP of a corporation sitting across from you in his/her office. You just have to suck it up and adapt.

Bottom line: be yourself, be humble, and be dedicated to your chosen service and the core values associated with it.

PS: There is a Marine Corps Officer MOS dedicated to engineering - MOS 1302: Combat Engineer Officer. Looks like you're not alone in your interests. https://www.thebalancecareers.com/marine-corps-officer-job-descriptions-3356194
Thanks for giving me the long, sincere answer Sir! Needed to hear that.
And I'm sorry for coming off as arrogant and demeaning. If I did, I'm sorry.
 
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Your politeness is greatly appreciated by SAF folks. Now kick it up a notch and add “ma’am” to it. A couple of people who’ve responded to your query don’t respond well to “sir.”
Good point. I'll be sure to say Sir/Madam if I'm unsure. Thanks for the tip.
 
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