Officers from USAFA and AFROTC

[LineInTheSand]

I don't doubt there are USAFA alum that think they are superior but there are Junior officer that are commission from source other than USAFA that instantly judge USAFA alum as stuck up.

I may be alone in voicing this opinion, but even within the academy grad world, there are academies that produce officers who seem to think they are superior, and academies that don't. Two academies, in my experience, come to mind.

 

[aseanag]

Or we can just say academies to it better, something I bet a number of people here believe, but are uncomfortable saying.

 

[LineInTheSand]

It figures I would have a typo in a one-sentence post about academies DOING it better.

 

[supreme1]

USAFA v AFROTC

Kids going to AFA are generally smarter as borne out by admissions standards etc. (no question here) and are obviously more committed to the military life style..no whining about how 'hard' academy is or that they want the 'college' lifestyle...give me a break. Because the military is actively recruiting the Academy kids and paying (100% not partial) of there schooling they should be paid say 20% more than ROTC going in to active duty. In addition there should be no monkey business, just admit that because they are Academy grads they are on the fast-track to higher-up positions. If a few ROTC guys/girls really perfrom then they too might be given teh opportunity to join the ranks of the elite. USAFA is 'the' golden ring, the top of the top, and we all know it, now say it loud and proud and reward them accordingly. AFA grads dont down play it and ROTC admit it. Then we can move forward with our heads high for telling the truth.

 

[kinnem]

Kids going to AFA are generally smarter as borne out by admissions standards etc. (no question here) and are obviously more committed to the military life style..no whining about how 'hard' academy is or that they want the 'college' lifestyle...give me a break. Because the military is actively recruiting the Academy kids and paying (100% not partial) of there schooling they should be paid say 20% more than ROTC going in to active duty. In addition there should be no monkey business, just admit that because they are Academy grads they are on the fast-track to higher-up positions. If a few ROTC guys/girls really perfrom then they too might be given teh opportunity to join the ranks of the elite. USAFA is 'the' golden ring, the top of the top, and we all know it, now say it loud and proud and reward them accordingly. AFA grads dont down play it and ROTC admit it. Then we can move forward with our heads high for telling the truth.

As the Dad of a ROTC kid, I MIGHT agree with starting Academy grads at higher pay. Emphasize MIGHT. As far as fast tracking and promotions I say it should be just like the "real" world and the question to ask is "What have you done for me lately". Performance should override all.

 

[Pima]

WOW, that's a strong opinion.

A couple of rebuttals.

Kids going to AFA are generally smarter as borne out by admissions standards etc

1. Did you know that AFROTC scholarships are national selection, not geo-centric?
~~~~ IOTW, there are many kids that get in and not offered an AFROTC scholarship because their academic qualifications are not as high nationally.
2. AFROTC boards do not superscore SAT/ACT, it is best sitting. The avg ACT for a Type 1 scholarship is 31. The avg ACT for a Type 7 is 29. AGAIN best sitting, and they are hitting the avg of the superscore.

Because the military is actively recruiting the Academy kids and paying (100% not partial) of there schooling they should be paid say 20% more than ROTC going in to active duty....just admit that because they are Academy grads they are on the fast-track to higher-up positions

Huh? Why? This makes no sense at all especially from a morale perspective.

Were you around when the RIF hit back in 91? There were 2 guys that were awarded the Silver Star at our base, but because of the RIF targeted yr groups, they were both handed walking papers since their commissioning source was ROTC. No AFA grad at our base got a Silver Star. Had they been allowed to stay, would you not agree that they were the fast track people on base?

Should it than be broken down for ROTC grads, that scholarship recipients get higher AD pay than non-scholarship ROTC grads...obviously in your thinking, they deserve to be paid more because they got a scholarship.

What about OCS? Should they get less pay.

Oh by the way, most AFROTC grads do get paid less than their AFA peers, but in a different way. I.E. Bullet commissioned in May, went AD in March. For 10 months the AF did not pay him a dime. His DOR was Oct. 1. AFA peers had their commissioning date, thus for 20 yrs., his pay lagged behind. ROTC grads also go after SA grads. That means, esp. for flight pay and promotions, they can be up to a yr behind in promotion due to a line number. AF grads will always be the top of the promotion line, except for APZ. It is simple as that. You can't get promoted to an O4 until O5s leave due to the mandate that X% of Flag to Field to Company. It can take a yr to pin on from start to finish. Not sour grapes, just illustrating that ROTC does take financial hits. They also take it on scholarship as cadets. Their stipend is much less than AFA cadet.

If a few ROTC guys/girls really perfrom then they too might be given teh opportunity to join the ranks of the elite. USAFA is 'the' golden ring, the top of the top, and we all know it, now say it loud and proud and reward them accordingly. AFA grads dont down play it and ROTC admit it. Then we can move forward with our heads high for telling the truth.

You do know that 50% of Flag officers are ROTC grads? One most notably...Gen. Colin Powell. Gone are the days that to be an O-10 you need that ring to get to the elite.

Do you know who Col. Mike Goode is? Google him. Google Jeannie Leavitt while you are at it. Both are ROTC grads.

Finally, I know many, many AFA grads that were past over for O5 while ROTC/OCS grads were promoted.

Graduating from the AFA does open doors when you are an O1, but after that it is all up to the person to succeed.

FWIW....Bullet was double crewed at FTU as a WSO. Both of his pilots were AFA grads. Only one person in a class of 18 did not graduate. They actually went to an FEB. Guess what source was theirs? AFA!

 

[John41057]

USAFA v ROTC

I can only speak as a father as to why I feel blessed to have my son attend the academy. First it is a place full of history and tradition. By attending the academy my son will make many friends that will remain his friends throughout his life and career. Also at the academy I feel there is so many different opportunities open to him during school after school and even doors that may open when his services is done. Also knowing my son, having his college experience also contain a level of discipline will also help him succeed. In most liberal colleges today there is so many distraction that I don't see at the academy to get in the way of academics. Also the academy wants you to succeed and gives you the tools and resources to do so. As most of you know my DS is a IC and as I stated while having strong grades and a good ACT he was not the stellar academic many non IC students are. The academy will give him, (in my opinion) the best chance to grow as a man and install in him the pride in his country. Also the academy makes it easy for him to be a christian and practice his faith. There is not a day that goes by that I fail to thank God for this wonderful opportunity my son has been given.
Regards
John

 

[USAFA10s]

And back to the OP's original question:

For background, I did not apply to any AFROTC programs, I do remember looking at several and considering it as an option, but if I remember right I couldn't find one at any of the other schools I was interested in attending (note, I based my search for colleges on their academic merits and degree programs combined with the opportunity to get a tennis scholarship, and to be honest, the "military thing" was more of a side thought at the time).

Basically if I remember right, I chose to attend USAFA for the following reasons
1. I wanted to go to a school where I could play a high level of tennis without sacrificing academics, because I knew that while I was decent at tennis, it would not be my career and as such, could not be my number 1 priority in college. Most D1 schools, if you are on scholarship for a sport, that is your number one priority, period dot. (and in retrospect, my coach at USAFA also thought I valued my grades too much...)
2. I love a good challenge and the large number of people who told me I would never get in, never make it through basic, wouldn't be able to handle the military environment etc... pretty much drove me to choose USAFA.
4. I never enjoyed partying in High School, I don't drink, and I wanted to be in an environment where the students (cadets) actually cared about school and learning.
3. Cost. I hinted at this, but basically I needed a scholarship. My parents put a lot into my tennis and the unspoken agreement was I would use my tennis abilities to pay for college, so when I saw that USAFA was a "full ride" that honestly played a huge role in my decision to attend.

Now, those are the reason I signed the papers and showed up on I-day, but those ARE NOT the reasons I stayed at USAFA. I highlight this because the reasons I chose to stay all would have been valid at a ROTC unit because they all had to do with becoming an Air Force Officer and absolutely loving the Air Force and serving my country.

This is just my personal perspective, but I guess what I am trying to say is I ended up at USAFA because it was an attractive option FOR ME. At that point I was thinking about myself and what a college could offer me, not what I could do for the AF/my country.

And...I am sure I am about to be told how I went for all the wrong reasons , so before you say that I KNOW but I am glad I did because if those reasons hadn't been there to draw me in, I never would have chosen this path and gained the perspective I have now (ps, I plan on making the Air Force a career now).

 

[Bullet]

Kids going to ( insert "the" here) AFA are generally smarter (insert comma here) as borne out by admissions standards (insert another comma here) etc. (no question here) and are obviously more committed to the military life style..no whining about how 'hard' academy is or that they want the 'college' lifestyle...give me a break. Because the military is actively recruiting the Academy kids and paying (100% not partial) of their schooling(recommend inserting another comma here) they should be paid say 20% more than ROTC going in to active duty. In addition (insert comma here, yet again) there should be no monkey business, just admit that because they are Academy grads they are on the fast-track to higher-up positions. (Insert laugh-track here) If a few ROTC guys/girls really perfrom then they too might be given teh (-5, spelling) opportunity to join the ranks of the elite. USAFA is 'the' (why are you using apostrophes instead of quotation marks? And if you're (note correct use of "you are" contraction) going to use quotation marks, it makes more sense to use them around the "golden ring" portion of this sentence.) golden ring, the top of the top, and we all know it, (end of sentence. Period required, then captitolize the "N" in now.) Now say it loud and proud and reward them accordingly. AFA grads dont down play it and ROTC admit it. Then we can move forward with our heads high for telling the truth.

Good thing this ROTC / State U / non-"golden ticket" / second teir / was on the slow track with no chance of career progression numbskull was able to fix it for you.

Son, if you're going to brag about how elite and special you are because you got into the Academy, at least have the pride to use proper grammar so us "lower than thou" individuals can understand what you're blabbering about.

Look, you got into the Academy. Congratulations for a job well done IN HIGH SCHOOL that got you to that point. Don't be THAT GUY who everyone looks at in the active duty world once you're done there as the perfect example of why "Zoomies are called Zoomies...."

 

[LineInTheSand]

Look, you got into the Academy. Congratulations for a job well done IN HIGH SCHOOL that got you to that point. Don't be THAT GUY who everyone looks at in the active duty world once you're done there as the perfect example of why "Zoomies are called Zoomies...."

His profile says his son is trying for USNA.... I don't think he's shooting for USAFA... unless he was the world's youngest dad.

 

[MedB]

To the OPs question...

For our DS, he was lucky enough to recieve an AFA appointment and what amounted to nearly a full-ride at an SMC with merit money and an AFROTC scholarship. (Note: Sometimes we still wonder how he managed to pull either of those off! lol) In any case, he chose the AFA route even though the SMC would have been MUCH closer to home, his girlfriend and offered more personal time. Why?

1) God bless him, he was mature enough to know he needed the structure and discipline an SA providied to keep him focused and on target.
2) He wanted the challenge that went with being "all in" as he saw it.​

On a related note, now our DD is applying to schools. We cannot shake her from the AFA dream despite some modest efforts to do so. Why?

1) She has never suffered fools well. Unlike our DS, she is focused and serious. Upon returning from Summer Seminar she declared it felt like "home". It was the first time in her life she felt like she wasn't the odd man out and that there really were a lot of people just like her. Much to our chagrin, we can barely even get her to entertain talking about ROTC or Plan B options as she doesn't want to go to a school where once again she's in the minority (her words, not ours).​

So... career options, bragging rights, cost, and everything else aside; the school choice for ALL of these exceptional young men and women who are willing to serve, often comes down to personal outlooks and expectations.

 

[USMCGrunt]

Kids going to AFA are generally smarter as borne out by admissions standards etc. (no question here) and are obviously more committed to the military life style..no whining about how 'hard' academy is or that they want the 'college' lifestyle...give me a break. Because the military is actively recruiting the Academy kids and paying (100% not partial) of there schooling they should be paid say 20% more than ROTC going in to active duty. In addition there should be no monkey business, just admit that because they are Academy grads they are on the fast-track to higher-up positions. If a few ROTC guys/girls really perfrom then they too might be given teh opportunity to join the ranks of the elite. USAFA is 'the' golden ring, the top of the top, and we all know it, now say it loud and proud and reward them accordingly. AFA grads dont down play it and ROTC admit it. Then we can move forward with our heads high for telling the truth.

This is a joke poorly written by someone who doesn't get it.

 

[Idzak]

Profile could be....a son trying for USNA.

 

[Pima]

Their DD is USMA class of 17.

 

[kinnem]

To the OPs question...

For our DS, he was lucky enough to recieve an AFA appointment and what amounted to nearly a full-ride at an SMC with merit money and an AFROTC scholarship. (Note: Sometimes we still wonder how he managed to pull either of those off! lol) In any case, he chose the AFA route even though the SMC would have been MUCH closer to home, his girlfriend and offered more personal time. Why?

1) God bless him, he was mature enough to know he needed the structure and discipline an SA providied to keep him focused and on target.
2) He wanted the challenge that went with being "all in" as he saw it.​

On a related note, now our DD is applying to schools. We cannot shake her from the AFA dream despite some modest efforts to do so. Why?

1) She has never suffered fools well. Unlike our DS, she is focused and serious. Upon returning from Summer Seminar she declared it felt like "home". It was the first time in her life she felt like she wasn't the odd man out and that there really were a lot of people just like her. Much to our chagrin, we can barely even get her to entertain talking about ROTC or Plan B options as she doesn't want to go to a school where once again she's in the minority (her words, not ours).​

So... career options, bragging rights, cost, and everything else aside; the school choice for ALL of these exceptional young men and women who are willing to serve, often comes down to personal outlooks and expectations.

Regarding ROTC, remind her (as I'm sure you already have) that she'll be "surrounded" by her comrades in her unit. DS has friends who have nothing to do with NROTC, roommates who dropped from NROTC, and a large number of close friends from his unit who are the guys he relies on day to day... socially and 'professionally'. It would be foolish not to have a plan B. Good luck to your DD.

 

[Christcorp]

 

[MedB]

Regarding ROTC, remind her (as I'm sure you already have) that she'll be "surrounded" by her comrades in her unit. DS has friends who have nothing to do with NROTC, roommates who dropped from NROTC, and a large number of close friends from his unit who are the guys he relies on day to day... socially and 'professionally'. It would be foolish not to have a plan B. Good luck to your DD.

Solid advice. And it's certainly an ongoing topic of conversation. Thanks for another testimonial we can share with her.

Unfortuntately, this particular teenager seems to have strong ideas of her own and is not particularly interested in other points of view sometimes... She must get that from her mother's side of the family.

 

[Non Ducor Duco]

To the OPs question...

For our DS, he was lucky enough to recieve an AFA appointment and what amounted to nearly a full-ride at an SMC with merit money and an AFROTC scholarship. (Note: Sometimes we still wonder how he managed to pull either of those off! lol) In any case, he chose the AFA route even though the SMC would have been MUCH closer to home, his girlfriend and offered more personal time. Why?

1) God bless him, he was mature enough to know he needed the structure and discipline an SA providied to keep him focused and on target.
2) He wanted the challenge that went with being "all in" as he saw it.​

On a related note, now our DD is applying to schools. We cannot shake her from the AFA dream despite some modest efforts to do so. Why?

1) She has never suffered fools well. Unlike our DS, she is focused and serious. Upon returning from Summer Seminar she declared it felt like "home". It was the first time in her life she felt like she wasn't the odd man out and that there really were a lot of people just like her. Much to our chagrin, we can barely even get her to entertain talking about ROTC or Plan B options as she doesn't want to go to a school where once again she's in the minority (her words, not ours).​

So... career options, bragging rights, cost, and everything else aside; the school choice for ALL of these exceptional young men and women who are willing to serve, often comes down to personal outlooks and expectations.

MedB, 1st of all congrats for raising some awesome kids there.

Your DD's reasoning for wanting the AFA and nowhere else is the same one I used when applying for my dream college and only AFROTC. Not because I wanted a social life or "normal" college experience (lol most jokes about ppl coming from my school is about us NOT having a social life), but because I wanted a challenge. It is a notoriously difficult school to graduate from and the program I'm in (which is not even offered at the AFA btw) is 2nd only to MIT (by .1 of a point on the scale I might add), but it feels like home. Anyone who got in is some kind of weird. I like the fact that you can walk through campus and hear a good joke about the differences btw a Physicist and a Mathematician or hear Sorority girls yelling at each other in binary lol. I like that practically every 10th person you pass here is speaking another language. Half my friends are international students, something you dont have at an academy. Lol, we even have Quidditch tournaments between some of the dorms. I now have relationships with ROTC friends, in AF and different services, that I am now closer to than anyone I met in HS because our goals and interests are so similar, and yet we all come from unique backgrounds. These are my kinds of people.

I knew this was the place I wanted to be, just like your DD knows the AFA is the place she wants to be because: 1) It is a challenge 2) I never suffered fools well either so it's great to be surrounded by serious, like-minded individuals 3) It feels like home and 4) I get to go here for freeeeeeeeeee!! Sound familiar?

So +1 to MedB on this choice being a the one that's best for YOU

 

[hornetguy]

MedB, 1st of all congrats for raising some awesome kids there. Your DD's reasoning for wanting the AFA and nowhere else is the same one I used when applying for my dream college and only AFROTC. Not because I wanted a social life or "normal" college experience (lol most jokes about ppl coming from my school is about us NOT having a social life), but because I wanted a challenge. It is a notoriously difficult school to graduate from and the program I'm in (which is not offered at the AFA) is 2nd only to MIT (by .1 of a point on the scale I might add), but it feels like home. Anyone who got in is some kind of weird. I like the fact that you can walk through campus and hear a good joke about the differences btw a Physicist and a Mathematician or hear Sorority girls yelling at each other in binary lol. I like that practically every 10th person you pass here is speaking another language. Half my friends are international students, something you dont have at an academy. Lol, we even have Quidditch tournaments at for some of the dorms. These are my kinds of people. I knew this was the place I wanted to be, just like your DD knows the AFA is the place she wants to be because: 1) It is a challenge 2) I never suffered fools well either so it's great to be surrounded by serious, like-minded individuals 3) It feels like home and 4) I get to go here for freeeeeeeeeee!!

So +1 to MedB on this choice being a the one that's best for YOU

One correction: USAFA does have international students. Just not a whole lot of them (~20 or so a class).

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

I have a question. Would the exact same person be a "better" officer going one direction or the other? In other words, would they be in better physical shape, would they be more ethical, would they be "smarter" (academically speaking), better long term leaders, etc.

Of course it's fair to say that there will be trade-offs.