Opinions please on service academy college admissions coaches

One thing most people forget, is that this forum is a "Bubble".

Think about it. How many NEW posters do we get each year of individuals or parents of; who are applying to the air force academy. Maybe a few hundred if we count lurkers. I'm talking about the posters seriously involved in getting accepted to the academy. Now; considering that approximately 12,000 initially apply to the air force academy each year, that would make the number of applicants who visit this forum, at about 2-3%. Hell, we can jack it up to 5% and say about 600 NEW poster/lurker/applicants come here each year. (Just talking the air force academy).

That means about 95% (11,000+) applicants and probably thousands more lurkers, are going through the process free-fall. They have their ALO, (Whether they are a good one or not) and their online portal to get them through. I could see that there is a definite market for coaches, counselors, advisers, etc. for assisting individuals into a college/university/military academy. And it seems that it could be big business.

But WE, as in those on this forum, are part of the 5% (really 2-3%) club. We don't need no stinken paid service.

The internet is a wonderful place. But most people use it for entertainment, news, and social media. Not as many people use it as a "Time Life How To Series" that we think do. Those individuals who are the type that like to do things themselves, instead of paying someone, are use to using the internet for what it was designed for. "Sharing Knowledge". Even my wife asked me a few weeks ago HOW to put on a new wiper blade on the REAR Window wiper of her SUV. I told her to do a google or youtube search. She did; she watched a 3 minute video; and she knew how to do it. She now does this for so many things.

And those who are "Self Help" types when it comes to college/military academies will do the same thing. That's probably how most of you all FOUND this forum/website. You were interested in applying to the academy; you did a google search on "How to apply to the air force academy" (Or something similar); and you checked out all the different resources. Those people, like you, will never need a paid service for such things as this. Just like I've been able to do a lot of home repairs, automotive repairs, computer problems, plumbing problems, etc. without calling someone to do it for me.

Like I said, most people use the internet for entertainment, news, and social media. And for 411 services such as looking for a local repair shop, adviser, or someone TO DO WORK FOR US. Many of us; like on this forum, we use the internet also to find out "HOW TO". That's the difference between the 5% and the 95%. The 95% uses online to find "WHO" can do this for me. The 5% uses online to find "HOW" can I do this.

Well, as far as finding out HOW to apply to a military academy, YOU'VE FOUND THE PLACE. You don't need to search for WHO can help you. You've found HOW to do it yourself.

Best of luck.
 
This ALO has helped board members and others from around the USA...and is proud to see them move on; whether its to an academy or some other endeavor, seeing their success is my satisfaction!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
On more than one occasion, this original poster literally teared up when reading the responses to my inquiry. The generosity of time and information shocked me and moves me. It really is incredible. Thank you so much - everybody. It will be a process and the support and guidance of this forum will be invaluable. It is neat to imagine that this (fingers crossed) is “the beginning of a beautiful friendship."
 
I disagree. There are of course scam artist out there that do little to nothing to get your into your college. If all you needed to get into an IVY school was grades and SAT scores then I would agree with you. The system today is highly competitive and there are plenty of kids out there that have 4.0 GPA or whatever goes for the top GPA and high SAT/ACTs scores. And yet most of these kids dont get in to Harvard or equivalent. The schools are looking for many other qualities and while doing your own research is important, having a professional help you can be very advantageous. Of course there are plenty of people who do it without one, but it cant hurt. It also depends on the school you go to. My older son went to a high end private school that had college counselors that really knew their stuff. We still hired a outside counselor to help him with certain thing he was weak at. She was fantastic and was able to help us with other matters related to his hunt for a college. My son s grades and ACT scores werent great but was able to get into a well known school whose specific program only acceptes 50 students each year. Did she make the difference, of course we have no way or knowing. My younger son is going to college this fall and his school also had a college counselor. She was just okay. She wasn't as knowledgeable or experienced as the counselors we used for my older son . As I had gone through the process with my older son, I could deal with her limitations. Most of the good ones, start with you will you are a freshman or a Sophomore. They help you create those other qualities that colleges are looking for.
You can be a smart boy or girl with a great GPA and a great SAT score. However, when compared to the other smart boy or girl who plays a varsity sport and plays the piano, you arent going to look as good

Christcorp said:
Of course there are paid counsellors to help you get into a traditional college, Ivy League, and yes a military academy. That doesn't make them any less a scam. All of them.

Personally, I feel, that if you aren't able to read through and fill out an application, and do some basic research to make yourself competitive for a particular school, then you probably aren't ready for college in the first place. Maybe you should be checking out a local community college or your state university; where acceptance is pretty much guaranteed.

I find it ironic, that a student/applicant, with the type of grades and sat/act scores required to get into an elite school like Harvard or a military academy, is incompetent to fill out an application, do an essay, and the other administrative requirements for applying to a college or university. Amazing.

Anyway, if a person wants to waste their money, on a service which is guaranteed to not provide any benefits vs free services and guidance designed specifically for that particular school; in this case the academies, then that person is definitely free to do so. After all, this is America. Where people are free to be stupid if they choose.
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Humey said:
I disagree. There are of course scam artist out there that do little to nothing to get your into your college. If all you needed to get into an IVY school was grades and SAT scores then I would agree with you. The system today is highly competitive and there are plenty of kids out there that have 4.0 GPA or whatever goes for the top GPA and high SAT/ACTs scores. And yet most of these kids dont get in to Harvard or equivalent. The schools are looking for many other qualities and while doing your own research is important, having a professional help you can be very advantageous. Of course there are plenty of people who do it without one, but it cant hurt. It also depends on the school you go to. My older son went to a high end private school that had college counselors that really knew their stuff. We still hired a outside counselor to help him with certain thing he was weak at. She was fantastic and was able to help us with other matters related to his hunt for a college. My son s grades and ACT scores werent great but was able to get into a well known school whose specific program only acceptes 50 students each year. Did she make the difference, of course we have no way or knowing. My younger son is going to college this fall and his school also had a college counselor. She was just okay. She wasn't as knowledgeable or experienced as the counselors we used for my older son . As I had gone through the process with my older son, I could deal with her limitations. Most of the good ones, start with you will you are a freshman or a Sophomore. They help you create those other qualities that colleges are looking for.
You can be a smart boy or girl with a great GPA and a great SAT score. However, when compared to the other smart boy or girl who plays a varsity sport and plays the piano, you arent going to look as good
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I think Christcorp's point (in reference to military academies, at least) wasn't so much that extra help and counseling have no benefits, but rather that even better assistance is already available for free through ALO's/BGO's/etc. Commercial counseling on SA admissions would represent a waste of money even if the company was reputable, simply because the same services are already offered free of charge. Additionally, advice provided by admissions representatives (rather than companies) would be more reliable simply because SA's pass information directly to their representatives in order to keep them 100% up to date on admissions policies.
 
Wild blue is correct. But in all fairness, I did imply that such counseling services were also not needed for traditional schools. And I stand by that accusation. If a person wants to pay for such services, they are definitely free to do so. I still say it's a waste of money. Then again, some people don't put that much importance on money and have no problem spending it.

Humey is correct. There are a lot of 4.0 students who don't get into Harvard and similar. There's also a lot of 4.0 that don't get into the academies too. And I've seen quite a few 3.7 students who have gotten into Georgetown, Princeton, Stanford, and the academies. All without paying for a counseling type service. And that's my point. There are plenty of free information and instruction available to assist in applying to any school you want. Whether it's Yale or West Point. Some applicants have the determination to seek out this information. Some would prefer to pay someone to do it for them. People are free to choose either way.

As for something being a scam, I consider something as such, when it is presented in such a manner as to make one believe that they need that service. That they can't make it on their own. That their chances improve greatly by paying for such service. When that is the case, it is a scam.

Now, if you are honest with yourself and simply admit that you don't want to do it yourself, and you'd prefer to have someone do it for you, even though you know you could do it, then that's not a scam. That's a choice. If I choose to have a service station do an oil change or tuneup for me because I don't want to or because I don't know how to because I don't want to learn how, then that's a choice. No problem. But when a dealership tells you that they are the only one that can perform a service, and that you're not allowed to or aren't capable of doing it, then that's a scam.

So, if you want to pay for a service to get yourself or a kid into college because you don't want to do it yourself or research it, then fine. That's a choice. But if you choose a service because they'll have you believe that they will improve your chances because they have knowledge or skills that you can't attain, then that is a scam. The truth is, there is no special knowledge or skills that you can't attain that will increase your chances of getting accepted to a particular school. All the information is out there. It's all free. And for any student that has the academic aptitude to succeed in such a school, then there's no excuse for them not getting the necessary information and skills needed to make their application the most competitive it can be. You don't need a paid service. No one does. Again, choosing such a service because you want to, and don't want to do the research or leg work, is fine. Simply admit that it was a choice. Just don't believe that such a service provides you with an edge that you couldn't do on your own.
 
My Ds1, USMA '19 (who was admitted on his second application) and DS2, USMA '20 (offered an appointment to USAFA as well) neither EVER heard back from their USMA ALO, even after multiple calls and emails. The USAFA ALO equivalent I'm convinced only called us back because he recognized my name (we served in the same unit). So, the idea that "the ALO will give you all the guidance you need" didn't work out for us THREE times. I certainly wouldn't have paid thousands of dollars, but if I hadn't had significant prior military service, I would have liked my sons to have had a little personal advice and help through the process. This forum was a real help to us, as the academy application process is very different from ROTC commissioning that I experienced, circa 1992 . . .
 
IMHO reach out to current cadets from your area / district and seek their advice. There are often local events where candidates can interact with active cadets for this specific purpose. Get on the mailing list and attend all the events you can with MOCs, SA admissions office, etc etc.
No 3rd party consultant likely has any actual inside knowledge of this years' admission cycle and can't offer you any insight you won't get from reading these forums.
If the ALO isn't available reach out to the Regional Commander's office [RC] for admissions guidance, they may be able to refer you to someone else in their network.
Spend your $$ on SAT test prep and get a better return. Its pretty darn hard to game the SA admissions system.
 
While a service can help a candidate with the mechanical parts of the process (such as the application), the appointment still comes down to the intangible of the individual candidate. It somehwat goes along with the "what are chances" type of thread in that most if not all the applicants are the same or similar on paper. What doesn't come through on paper are those qualities that make the person a viable candidate for a SA. If there's one thing I've learned from my DS's first year at USAFA is that the DESIRE to attend a SA and become a military officer is a tangible attribute observable in almost all cadets. If a cadet doesn't have this desire I suggest that they wash out quickly.

And I agree with Chirstcorps thoughts about going through the application and appointement process. There is great value in working through it.
 
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It LIVES!
 
Christcorp said:
Wild blue is correct. But in all fairness, I did imply that such counseling services were also not needed for traditional schools. And I stand by that accusation. If a person wants to pay for such services, they are definitely free to do so. I still say it's a waste of money. Then again, some people don't put that much importance on money and have no problem spending it.

Humey is correct. There are a lot of 4.0 students who don't get into Harvard and similar. There's also a lot of 4.0 that don't get into the academies too. And I've seen quite a few 3.7 students who have gotten into Georgetown, Princeton, Stanford, and the academies. All without paying for a counseling type service. And that's my point. There are plenty of free information and instruction available to assist in applying to any school you want. Whether it's Yale or West Point. Some applicants have the determination to seek out this information. Some would prefer to pay someone to do it for them. People are free to choose either way.

As for something being a scam, I consider something as such, when it is presented in such a manner as to make one believe that they need that service. That they can't make it on their own. That their chances improve greatly by paying for such service. When that is the case, it is a scam.

Now, if you are honest with yourself and simply admit that you don't want to do it yourself, and you'd prefer to have someone do it for you, even though you know you could do it, then that's not a scam. That's a choice. If I choose to have a service station do an oil change or tuneup for me because I don't want to or because I don't know how to because I don't want to learn how, then that's a choice. No problem. But when a dealership tells you that they are the only one that can perform a service, and that you're not allowed to or aren't capable of doing it, then that's a scam.

So, if you want to pay for a service to get yourself or a kid into college because you don't want to do it yourself or research it, then fine. That's a choice. But if you choose a service because they'll have you believe that they will improve your chances because they have knowledge or skills that you can't attain, then that is a scam. The truth is, there is no special knowledge or skills that you can't attain that will increase your chances of getting accepted to a particular school. All the information is out there. It's all free. And for any student that has the academic aptitude to succeed in such a school, then there's no excuse for them not getting the necessary information and skills needed to make their application the most competitive it can be. You don't need a paid service. No one does. Again, choosing such a service because you want to, and don't want to do the research or leg work, is fine. Simply admit that it was a choice. Just don't believe that such a service provides you with an edge that you couldn't do on your own.
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Since someone posted on this older thread, I figured i would respond to a post for a while ago. I agree with with what Christcorp says. Many if not all of these things can be done on your own. Having said that, not every is capable or knowledgeable or skillful enough to do so . There are many things in the legal profession that can be done by people if they were to research it. That also holds true for my profession (tax preparation) but I would hire an attorney and I would hire a CPA to act in my behalf because I know they have the experience and knowledge to get it done right. The high schools hire these people to do the work for the kids, so its not like they are an extravaganza . The only problem there is like anything else, some are better than others . There are people out there who have not only worked with the colleges but in many cases worked in the admissions department of those colleges. They know what it takes and what is needed. I also understand that a good chunk of them are a little above scam artists. The goods one are professionals and can help you with what you need. That some people get do it on their own, that is great for them, but that isnt everyone.
 
Well; being it is "Zombie Day", I'll reply too.

As for "not every individual" being capable or knowledgeable or skillful enough to do the research and application process themselves; I find that a bit different compared to getting help or hiring someone for "Professional Skills" such as legal advice, Financial services, licensed electrician, plumber, etc...

Here, we are talking about basically "College Applications". Whether for a traditional university or a military academy. For the AVERAGE college applicant, maybe a little assistance by a "Professional" would be worth it. It might even help improve their chances of getting into a college.

(The following is where I'll probably upset some people)

But we aren't talking about the "Average College Student". We are speaking of individuals applying to a military academy. I consider the military academies to be at about the same caliber and quality as the elite/prestigious/ivy type schools. I've said many times, if you're applying to a military academy and you honestly believe you have what it takes to get an appointment, then you SHOULD ALSO be apply to the Ivy league universities and similar. They are the same caliber. If you don't think you have the grades, test scores, ec, or other things to get ACCEPTED to harvard, yale, Stanford, MIT, etc..... then in MY OPINION, you don't have what is required to get accepted into the military academies either. Matter of fact; because of physical and leadership requirements, I believe it requires even MORE from an individual to get accepted to a military academy compared to any other university.

Having said that, if you DO have the grades, test scores, qualities, etc. that are required to get you into a military academy or a traditional high end school like harvard, yale, stanford, MIT, etc. then YOU AREN'T the person who "NEEDS" assistance from a "College Recruiting Application Professional" (CRAP) service. Individuals who attend military academies and the likes of the traditional universities I previously mentioned, are the "BEST OF THE BEST". Or at least they are SUPPOSE to be. If you can't do some basic google searches and find out how to apply to a military academy or Ivy league school; and you can't search out forums (Such as this one) or similar places where others have done the same before you and learn from them; then maybe you don't have what it takes for a military academy or high end traditional university.

When my son became interested in applying to the academy, he went on-line and searched the "LOGICAL" questions.
1. How do I apply to the Air Force Academy
2. How do I get accepted to the Air Force Academy
3. Air Force Academy Forums
4. Air Force Academy Application
5. Air Force Academy facebook page
6. And a few other BASIC LOGICAL SEARCHES.

FWIW: Just because I was retired air force, and very involved in the academy recruitment process; in the beginning, my son searched this all out for himself. After growing up in the military as a brat, I didn't expect him to want to be in the military. He was also accepted with scholarships to Tulane, Michigan State, USC, and a number of other schools. It wasn't until he told me after researching the academies that he was interested. The other schools were already on his radar.

Point is; MOST of the kids And/Or Parents of those who are interested in the military academies and are "Competitive"; are ALSO competitive for the high end universities I posted above; and are the type that doesn't need a Paid Professional Service to help them with their applications, resumes, references, etc. They are quite capable of doing it themselves. That's because they AREN'T THE AVERAGE STUDENT. The "Average" student isn't or shouldn't be applying to harvard, yale, stanford, MIT, or one of the military academies.

But as I said last year...... If a person WANTS to pay the money for such a service, they are free to do so. Will they gain ANY additional leg up in receiving an appointment? If they are the "Average" student, then maybe yes. But whether they stay in the Academy after being accepted may be another thing. But if you're the "Above Average" student, who is applying to the academies and are/or should be also applying to the harvards, yales, etc. of the world, then chances are you won't receive any benefit whatsoever for the money you spent on the paid service. Because after paying, you'll look at the service provided and either say: "I already knew that" or "I could have done that myself".

Like I said; I'm sure I upset or pi$$ed someone off with the last few paragraphs. In no way was I degrading anyone who hasn't attended a military academy or a university like Harvard, Yales, Stanford, etc. My daughter, who also graduated the IB program in high school and had many opportunities, decided on attending the University of Wyoming. A fine State University. And there's nothing wrong with students who attend any of these schools. The point is; my daughter didn't need a paid service to apply to that university. Just like my son didn't need a paid service to apply to the academy or the other 5 universities he applied to. And NEITHER DOES ANY other "Above Average" student applying to college. And as I said, if you're applying to a military academy; and you honestly believe you SHOULD receive an appointment; that means you SHOULD also apply and would be competitive for the IVY League type schools; THUS...... you ARE an "ABOVE AVERAGE" student. Thus, you don't need a paid service to help you. You know how to do it yourself, or can easily find the resources to help you.

So, in a nutshell:
1. If, you are an ABOVE AVERAGE student, who is applying to a prestigious university or military academy, you DON'T NEED a paid service.
2. If, you are an AVERAGE student, and even though you have a 3.0-3.5gpa and 20-24 ACT, want to apply to a military academy or prestigious university, then a paid service may help you. But chances are, they can't help with your GPA and ACT, and thus, you still won't get accepted.
3. If you are an ABOVE AVERAGE student, and you DO pay for a professional service to help you with your college/academy application process; then you probably won't receive any benefit from it; but you feel more secure, or are use to, having someone else making decisions for you and telling you what to do.

Take it as you like. It's not meant to upset anyone. But facts are facts. For the above average student, who is generally the one's applying to the academies and elite universities, they don't need assistance. This isn't a "SKILL" that needs to be learned like electricity, plumbing, accounting, law, etc. This is basic RESEARCH, which you should have learned in High School to pass your classes and assignments. Finding HOW to apply to the academies and universities is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
 
Christcorp said:
But we aren't talking about the "Average College Student". We are speaking of individuals applying to a military academy. I consider the military academies to be at about the same caliber and quality as the elite/prestigious/ivy type schools. I've said many times, if you're applying to a military academy and you honestly believe you have what it takes to get an appointment, then you SHOULD ALSO be apply to the Ivy league universities and similar. They are the same caliber. If you don't think you have the grades, test scores, ec, or other things to get ACCEPTED to harvard, yale, Stanford, MIT, etc..... then in MY OPINION, you don't have what is required to get accepted into the military academies either. Matter of fact; because of physical and leadership requirements, I believe it requires even MORE from an individual to get accepted to a military academy compared to any other university.
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We agree that someone who gets into a service academy isn't an average college student. But when it comes to comparing the "level of difficulty" of getting into these schools, they are definitely different.

There are p-l-e-n-t-y of overlapping students. Meaning, (25%????) who get into USAFA could get into Yale, MIT, etc. As you say, the physical element and being medically qualified will disqualify (75%??) of Yale, MIT or Stanford students. So without question, there will be a chuck of students that apply to Harvard that would have ZERO chance of getting into USAFA. But my point is they are different. For instance, the 25 percentile (lowest quartile) of a Stanford applicant has an average ACT score of 31. The 75th percentile is 34. But like USAFA, Stanford is about "the whole person" and looking for ingenuity and less about leadership and athleticism. If you started a company at age 16, that will impress Stanford more than being a leader. At MIT, the lowest percentile ACT is 33 with TON's of 35-36 scores. They are honing in on individuals that have built cool things. Programmers, builders of electronic widgets, etc. Dartmouth is incredibly impressed by being 1st in their class. In fact, 46% were 1st in their class https://news.dartmouth.edu/news/2017/03/2092-students-are-offered-admission-class-2021 .

In summary, each school is looking for a different type of student. Each are looking for the "whole person". Certainly a whole lot of USAFA students would have zero chance of getting into MIT (or Harvard or Yale or Stanford). we are comparing apples to guavas.
 
No we're not. The point is, the vast majority of those Stanford kids, probably didn't need a paid service to help them apply to colleges. Not saying some didn't use such a service. Simply saying the caliber of student who gets accepted to such schools doesn't NEED such a paid service. Neither does the caliber of student that gets accepted to a military academy.

This is the point. It's not complicated. Don't read into it. If you are the caliber of student who is competitive in applying to a military academy, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, mit, etc., then you have the capacity to do basic research and apply to such schools and be competitive. You don't need a paid service to help. If you DO NEED such a service, then you're probably not as competitive as you think you are. Or if you simply choose to use such a service anyway, then you're probably use to having someone else do things for you or having someone else tell you what and how to do things.
 
It's just my opinion, but if the Air Force Academy ever found out you used this service, your application would be put at the bottom of the stack. BTW if they found out your parents filled out the application--and I am not talking about proofing essays--the same would be true.

While the application was never designed to weed out candidates, it actually does. Putting up with all the requirements and pushing to the end--persistence--is something the military values and a trait that you will absolutely need if you intend to succeed at an Academy and in military service.

BTW Parents: The Academy wants to hear from your children, not you. Be the guide on the side, not the parent who is constantly calling the Admissions Counselor or ALO. First of all Counselors and ALOs take note that the parent may be more interested than the candidate and second are you really preparing your children for what they will experience in life if you do it for them.
 
Christcorp said:
No we're not. The point is, the vast majority of those Stanford kids, probably didn't need a paid service to help them apply to colleges. Not saying some didn't use such a service. Simply saying the caliber of student who gets accepted to such schools doesn't NEED such a paid service. Neither does the caliber of student that gets accepted to a military academy.
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We agree that a paid service is not needed. And as In-The-Know succinctly pointed out, a hand-held applicant (hiring a coach) is the exact opposite type of applicant that they desire. We also agree that if you are smart enough to get into a top ranked university or SA, then you better be smart enough to apply and figure it out the USAFA application process by yourself. The only thing we did as parents is help with the medical waiver process because it was a complex situation.

With all of that said, there are people more informed on what specific prestigious schools are looking for. They help green applicants on the essays content etc. Statistically speaking, the good coaches could boost the probability of getting the applicant to be stared at more closely. Yes, there are some coaches that have relationships in admissions too.;) Or they could help prevent a faux pas from getting into the packet. No doubt there are others that simply take students $$'s and add no value. This doesn't mean the best coaches are writing their essays (unfortunately I bet some are), but rather help them mine their experiences on paper to put their best foot forward. Specifically with the academies, I just don't see that service is needed.

Back to my point. I was addressing your statement that "Academies are harder to get into" (or that USAFA students should automatically fit and apply at Stanford, MIT, and the Ivy's). Not as much as you think. They are different types of highly qualified students. In many cases, they are dramatically different students. Some overlap while other students have no chance of getting in to each others schools. The poster-child student at MIT (36 ACT, 4.0 GPA, advanced science HS student that was a computer consultant at age 15 years old) may not have a chance to get into USAFA because he is an introvert or is physically clumsy. But the 29 ACT student, captain of 3 sports and charismatic student who got into USAFA is going to have an impossible time pretending to get into MIT. That's the reality, and there are 100 more examples. So I say the overlap isn't even 50%. More like 15-25%. So yes, there are a lot of USAFA students who turned down MIT, Harvard, Yale, etc. But those examples are in the sever minority; because the impressive student profiles of each college are often very different.

To illustrate my point on a personal level, our 2016 USAFA graduate was 1st to walk across the stage and shake the presidents hand. Yet he got turned down at Stanford for his UG. When he talked with Harvard admissions for UG they said he was really weak on his community service (which he was) and he didn't apply. I read his Stanford application. I thought it was very well written. In fact, later, he called and talked with the person who read and turned down his application. Maybe a coach would have asked him to leave out a cleaver essay describing how he felt (as his hockey skates). The admission person who read his testosterone-buzzed essay was the head of Stanford transgender group. Did that essay resonate with the audience? It certainly fit for his USAFA application. So my point was don't assume coaches cannot add value. I suspect the right coach would have been a tie breaker for him. Therefore, you cannot assume even the #1 USAFA graduate is a shoe-in at an Ivy for undergrad. The bottom line is students can be very different yet equally accomplished.

Additionally, many ex Ivy grads are their kids "coaches" and have an edge (all things being equal). This is no different that many ex Academy grads are their kids "coaches" (and depending on the situation, could mean a big boost). I'm sure we would agree that it is wrong when someone tries to buy their way into a school by hiring coaches that are too involved in the process.
 
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The average "appointee" to the military academies are competitive for the high end universities. Now there are some that simply don't have an interest in such schools, and that's ok. I.e. MIT is pretty specialized. But if you're not into those types of majors and such, it's silly to apply there. Same with many of the "Liberal Arts" type universities.

My 2 main points; "and using the Ivy League and high end schools was for affect", is:
1. If you're qualified and competitive for a military academy appointment, and you don't get it, you aren't relegated to the local community college or University of Whereverthehell. If you're competitive for a military academy, you're competitive for most any school in the country.
2. The military academies can be more difficult to get into then a high end university because of the added requirements such as physical fitness, medical, lifestyle choices (Drugs, alcohol, etc.). Are there some who received an appointment to a military academy that couldn't get accepted to stanford, mit, harvard, etc. if they wanted? Yes. Just like there are some who got accepted to those high end schools that were turned down by the academies.

But generally speaking, if you are of the caliber to receive an appointment to a military academy, you're also of the caliber that you should be applying to other schools that you WANT. Not limiting yourself because you think you're not good enough.

And for what it's worth, I have seen first hand, individuals who were turned down "initially" from certain schools; Georgetown and Brown to name 2 specific schools. They met the "Minimum Requirements" but obviously weren't as competitive. But once they/parents explained to the schools that they didn't need ANY financial aid, FAFSA, grants, etc. and that they would be paying FULL TUITION and expenses in CASH; the school immediately became "sympathetic" and they were easily accepted. That is a major difference between any traditional university and the military academies. There's no buying your way into the academy. Most schools are a business. If you can walk in with "Cash in Hand" and you meet the minimum requirements, you pretty much can attend if you want to. And yes, the military academies have some similar situations also. e.g. 4 Star General's kid probably has a much better chance of an academy appointment.
 
Christcorp said:
The average "appointee" to the military academies are competitive for the high end universities.
Click to expand...
The "average" appointee at the SA has a different bag of tricks. The key word is average. With an average ACT score of 30 at USAFA, the overwhelming majority of the students are going to be passed up at Harvard. In fact, the 75th percentile ACT score at USAFA is a 32. 32 is on the low end of the scale as compared to Harvard. There are scatter plots that show ACT and GPA; so I'm not guessing. Realistically, the bulk of USAFA simply are not as academically gifted. But as a whole, USAFA students are gifted in other areas. Hence, it is "harder" for a USAFA student to get into Harvard and it is "harder" for a Harvard student to get into USAFA. So while their are overlap, the students accepted are different. If your bag of tricks match-up to a school, then it is "easy" to get it. Hence, it was "easy" for our son to get into USAFA (yet incredibly difficult for many brilliant Harvard students). It is what it is.... So no, you cannot say "it is harder" to get into USAFA that an Ivy because of the physical element unless you qualify it for a specific individual. Statistically, I suppose we could calculate objectively which is harder (based off acceptance rates).

Furthermore, I propose the average ACT scores is lower because of the mandated (and wise) leadership and athleticism criteria that USAFA requires. And Harvard (as an example) is going to be more bent on giving back (a.k.a. making sure you donate later), essays, etc. They have a very different formula for "the whole person". So it is like comparing apples to guavas. So by definition, if you are a "typical appointee" at USAFA, it's not going to be easy to get into Harvard, Yale, Stanford, CalTech and MIT. Certainly many (15-25%) could. But not my son. It is what it is...
 
According to CollegeData, Harvard Freshman Admissions Requirements

FRESHMAN ADMISSION REQUIREMENTS
Entrance Difficulty
Most Difficult: More than 75% of freshmen were in the top 10% of their high school class and scored over 1310 on the SAT I or over 29 on the ACT; about 30% or fewer of all applicants accepted.

Qualifications of Enrolled Freshmen
Average GPA 4.10 (based on weighted GPAs)
SAT Math 700-800 range of middle 50%
SAT Critical Reading 700-800 range of middle 50%
SAT Writing 710-790 range of middle 50%
ACT Composite 32-35 range of middle 50%

And, if the academy ACT scores; average of 30-31 are lower because of your theory; then that means that quite a few of the cadets probably scored higher. Thus, they are competitive.

I will restate what I wrote previously:
"But generally speaking, if you are of the caliber to receive an appointment to a military academy, you're also of the caliber that you should be applying to other schools that you WANT. Not limiting yourself because you think you're not good enough."

Meaning, not relegating yourself just to community colleges or your local state college because you don't think you're good enough.

But I can be a little more realistic if you prefer. Most people have a "Favorable Opinion" when they hear of "Purdue University". The class profile for them is:
Purdue University:
  • Middle 50% high school GPA range: 3.59-4.0

  • Middle 50% SAT range: 1160-1360 (1600 scale)

  • Middle 50% ACT composite range: 26-31
Georgetown University
Qualifications of Enrolled Freshmen
Average GPA Not reported
SAT Math 660-750 range of middle 50%
SAT Critical Reading 660-750 range of middle 50%
SAT Writing Not reported
ACT Composite 30-34 range of middle 50%

Stanford University:
75% students had 4.0 gpa
20% students had 3.7-3.9 gpa
90% ACT score >30
10% ACT score 24-29

And of course, all these scores are the MIDDLE RANGE. That means some students had lower. Point is, I contend that most academy appointees and those who were "Truly Competitive" would in my opinion, be competitive in many other schools. Schools that many consider out of their reach.

Oh; and for those who care about the cost to attend a school like Harvard, here's a breakdown. It's similar (Percentages) for many schools.

Typical financial aid package for freshman scholarship holders, 2016-2017

Total budget $66,950
Parents’ contribution $12,000
Student asset and summer work expectation $1,150
Harvard, federal and outside scholarships $52,050
Term-time work expectation $1,750



 
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