Discussion in 'Air Force Academy - USAFA' started by burnerafter16, Jul 22, 2013.
This was actually announced weeks ago. Here is the thread from this site discussing it.
What's interesting is the AF apparently hasn't told UPT that they are going to be short on fighters. Here are the recent drops.
XL 13-11 Drop (Laughlin)
MC-12 Beale x2
Notice no 15, 16, 22, 10.
CBM 38's 13-12 (Columbus)
END's 13-12: (Enid)
- F15E to SJ (former WSO)
- T-6 FAIP
- F-16 Luke (Singapore)
- KC-10 Travis
- MC-12 Beale x3
- E-3 Tinker
- PC-12 Cannon
- T-1 FAIP
- C-17 McChord x2
- C-17 Charleston
- C-130 Peoria (Guard)
- KC-135 Milwaukee (Guard)
- RC-135 Offut
- KC-135 Forbes
What stage of UPT is your son in at Laughlin, Pima?
He will track in Sept. Talked to him yesterday, and this conversation also ties into the pilot shortage.
His class of 30 is down to 25. 3 were washed out, and 2 washed back. His IFS class also had 30 to start with and 24 or 26 graduated. He started UPT April 2nd. He has AFA grads in his class.
They are def. not reducing standards. I would hate for cadets to think that this shortage means the path will be easier.
Additionally, although that one time lump check of 225K seems like a lot, look for the devil in the details. AF is actually saving money because with the old system, it would have been 250K because it would take you out to 20+. Now the AF also has more freedom. If you take it, you are in until 19. They hit you with a remote at 17 yrs 364 days...you go. Hard to get a job stateside when you are in Korea for a yr. If they send you to Ramstein with dependents at that same marker it is 3 yrs...you are in until 21 yrs. Under this program compared to the old, you got shorted 25K.
The old program, it was offered at the 7 yr marker until the 14 yr. point. It was also smart because at the 11/12 yr point you would pin on O4, and incur a commitment. You could forgo the promotion, but they still owned you for a couple of yrs. Most take the promotion, and hope they can rig their moves for timing. However, now they are at 15 yrs and the 50% pay for their life is really only 1 more move until they hit 20. Plus, the offer of another 25K a yr bonus, and that looks very appealing for the kids college savings accounts. More appealing when you realize that the 1st 5 yrs for airlines is basically O2 pay, and you have a mtg., pre-school, soccer/TKD/Bball, etc. fees, plus that car payment too.
Out of all of our F15E friends, I can recall only 3 that bailed at the 14 yr marker. They all went airlines. 9/11 occurred, and within 5 yrs they went back to the AF because they couldn't survive any longer after being furloughed. They left no later than 2000. One of our closest friends returned the yr Bullet retired. He was an AFA grad, ENJJPT UPT, O4 select with an X for PME in residence. He entered back as an O4, and they said had they had 20/20 vision leaving was his biggest financial mistake.
I also have to say, I wonder when the AF will have to give the same bonus to heavies. Fact is if you look at the drops, those pilots can leave in droves come the 14 yr marker. If the fighter guys are stuck until the 19 yr marker, the airlines will go after the heavies. They are a business, and they will need pilots. By offering only to fighters, they left heavies as a viable recruiting pool.
Poor planning on the AF IMPO. Commercial airlines want military pilots, and they want fighters because in their mind they were the top of the class. If Southwest can't get a 16 driver, they will be happy with a C130 driver. Their goal is to keep their planes flying. The heavy guy that wants to do 20, will get 2 bonuses to stay until 21 for a total of 250K. Let's be real who is leaving at 19? The heavies stay until 21, made 25K more. The AF has the upper hand financially.
I wonder how many UPT students now are rethinking heavies if they follow the news regarding commercial airline shortages.
Well; Hornet finishes grad school in a couple months. Hopefully this will bode well for him as he starts UPT. Curious how it will be in 2 years when my son graduates grad school and heads to UPT.
ah, parent of a grad still ignorant
I am seeing PIMA showing 25ish in a UPT class.
And then I am seeing 15ish aircraft available to that class?
Is that accurate, or am I again USAF-challenged?
And, at 1 fighter pilot per class, seems difficult to do much catching up with the "shortage" - any rationale you can help with there?
Thanks for all you guys have done on this forum in educating those of us who fly "coach".
Can someone describe the process where you would "wash back"?
I believe Pima was quoting 25ish currently in her son's class and the "drops" that she posted were for recent UPT graduating classes... not her son's class.
BTW - Congrats Pima & Bullett on your son getting this far. Clearly a difficult road.
UPT classes just recently began starting with 30. Previously they had 25 to start so that is why you're seeing finishing numbers in the teens.
Son's class started with 25, and had four wash out, three wash back, and one wash in for an ending class of 19. Of those 19 there were 4 fighters. The process of washing back means that you're not keeping up with your class, but the instructors feel that with a little more time you could catch up so they allow you to move back a class or two in order to get some more instruction time. It is really up to the leadership whether you wash back or wash out.
The amount of fighters vary by class based on what the AF has available that particular week. Also, a lot of fighter pilots are coming out of ENJJPT lately. This is the last drop from ENJJPT:
F-16 x 5
F-15E x 2
A-10 x 2
T-38 Aggressor (follow on F-22)
B-1 x 2
"Wash back" is going back to another UPT class that started AFTER your original UPT class. Being sick or busting a check ride/phase of training that would require retraining before advancing to the next phase. would constitute "washing back" There is a limit of washing back in my day...3 max to be exact for deficiencies either for flying or academics/illness. Rarely did we have any trainees wash back three times though.
I didn't see any US washbacks for non-medical reasons when I went through.
Dtkdarnoc, the USAF has been pretty lousy at evenly distributing fighter slots the past few years. A couple years ago, classes were graduating with zero fighters, and now we have a shortage. Things go in cycles.
Pima, tell your son to come to the dark side! We can hover.
Couple questions, please, and please forgive me if my wording offends anyone, I'm still learning! I'm a navy brat who joined the army and my son's life-long dream is to fly AF!
How does the process work if you are given UAV's (for example, is it at the same time as the planes?)
DS#1 would luuuuv to fly AC130's, I see C130 H and J, is there just not a slot for it in those classes listed or do you earn AC130 after so many hours of the others?
Raimius, DS #2 wants to hover...what is the process for that?
UAV pilots now know that they will go UAV, thus they train in San Antonio. Yrs ago they would track out at UPT.
AC 130's do drop. They drop on the T-38 side (fighter), not the T-1 (heavies) side. Columbus had one drop a few months ago.
Stealth, I didn't place the ENJJPT drop because they don't drop heavies, and most cadets don't go there for UPT compared to the other UPT classes.
Finally, agagles is correct our DS only started 3 months ago, he has 2 more to go before tracking, and then another 7 until he graduates. He won't know his drop for airframes for many many more months. The latest drop was 13-12. Our DS will be 14-08, so that shows you how many more drops will occur before his (about 11).
Agagles, thanks. We tell him everytime we talk, which is usually only 1x a week for a few minutes, that no matter where this path will take him look how far you have come already.
I will say as a parent, I steel myself when I see his number show up on the caller id if it is not Sunday. Basically....will this be a good call or a bad call? He always does the same thing...is Dad there? So than I have to wait a few more seconds to hear Bullet's response....if Bullet laughs, my heart jumps, if he says DS this thing happens, you need to do.... my heart sinks. Seriously, I thought it was hard when Bullet went through UNT and FTU as the fiance/spouse, but it is 1000 times harder as a parent IMPO. Luckily last night when he called it was answered with Bullet laughing!
Two of the three washbacks from son's class were Saudis.
There are not any RPA (UAV) slots from UPT anymore. In the past the RPA slots were given out along with the other assignments, but since there is now a specific RPA career track it is not happening. The only exception is for RPA Guard units where the student knows from the beginning that they will fly RPAs.
There are slots given out of UPT for AC-130s, but they are just not real common. Since there are only 35(ish) AC-130 airframes vs. 400+ C-130 E/H/J airframes it is simply that there aren't as many slots.
After getting a UPT slot, passing IFS, and getting to T-6s, make your preference known to your flight leadership. Hopefully, do well in T-6s. Put UH-1H/TH-1H as your first choice for track select...then pray. Usually, each T-6 class gets 1-2 UH-1 slots. If you get that, you move to Ft. Rucker, Alabama for 6 more months of UPT in Hueys. At the end of phase III at Rucker, you can go UH-1Ns (what I do), HH-60Gs, CV-22s, or be selected as an instructor at Rucker.
That's the basics. I put in a bit more detail here: http://www.usafacommunity.com/forum/blogs/raimius/
As a UPT student's Mom. Raimius's blog is a MUST read for UPT.
It truly gives insight of what they will endure.
So many posters as 17/18 yr olds come on this site with an airframe in mind. That should stay to motivate them, but when you read his blog, reality will set in on what your daily life will be like.
The only thing that I can say for sure has changed is IFS is now waivered if you have a PPL. The decision to request the waiver is another topic/thread, and far down the road for candidates.
raimius for taking the time and sharing.
Thank you so much, everyone, for sharing!
That little drop there belongs to someone on this forum.
And CC, I'm pretty eager to get to TX in October for UPT! School is a bore.
Happy for you bro. You've worked hard for what you've gotten. You deserve everything you get.
With two sons calling (most) Sundays.... my head is still spinning with the details of UPT.
My son had a "wash back" for a medical reason (blown out eardrums), and is happy to be back in the air.
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