Pink & Green

I had a pair of the rip-stop jungle fatigue trousers, with the built-in drawstrings at the legs, and the blouse.
I used to work on my car in that outfit, as a teenager. Those simply were the best.
 
Uniform transitions are simply a part of serving.

This exactly right here is why I said I understand its a rite of passage in my first post, but its the kind of attitude I detest. Leaders who just accept this cost soldiers hundreds of dollars. Sure, as an officer, I make enough to cover these uniforms fine without a clothing allowance, but the clothing allowance does not even cover the wear out rate of normal uniforms for my soldiers in a typical year. They're maintainers that beat the absolute crap out of their daily wear, and currently a set of ACUs costs about $110. They're supposed to have 5 on hand. I promise they go through at least 2-3 sets a year just in garrison operations, not including boots (anywhere from $100-150 for a decent set. Flight approved always range on the higher side because we have less options) which they'll destroy a set with oil stains every year. Transmission oil does not come out of pants or boots ever. We don't work with coveralls, because they aren't issued. There aren't enough A2CUs to issue to every single maintainer in a Delta or Bravo maintenance company so these folks will be working in ACUs that they will then have to replace (how we get around replacing uniforms for crew chiefs in flight companies: A2CUs are a CIF issue item only and will be replaced by the Army when deemed unserviceable unlike ACUs).

So for these folks in ACUs, that's about $400 right there not taking into account patches, nametapes, etc. or anything else they need like running shoes, undershirts, or hats (because we can't apparently not lose these) that all are required uniform items their allowances are supposed to cover. They only get about $310 a year to replace items as their clothing allowance. Anything else is covered out of pocket, and for the type of uniform that pink/greens will become, they will hardly ever wear it. It'll come out for very specific uniform inspections or boards, but that's about it. We'll still wear our Class A's to balls which is pretty much the only time these guys would wear anything besides ACUs anyways.

Even as an officer, I'll hardly wear it unless I work a job in the Pentagon or similar nature that puts me in an office. Otherwise, I'll be rocking A2CUs or ACUs on a daily basis, because for right now, I still mostly actually work for a living. Well, at least pretend to anyways.

So rant complete, but basically to sum it up, the acceptance of these kinds of changes as just part of the job is part of the disconnect that is causing my branch to have some of the highest retention issues its seen in quite a while. It might seem little, but this kind of attitude from leadership added up over the course of many, many little things forces people to go look on the outside of what they can do better with their time.


I understand the concern.
The “dress blue” uniform (as people of my generation knew it) was not designed for day to day use since since probably the late 1800’s. The problem has been what to otherwise wear when “fatigues” (or whatever the latest iteration is called) are too informal and blues are too formal. When I first enlisted we still had khakis for “business casual” but they were phasing out. We then had “fatigues” (or BDUs as we called them then), greens (which were never very popular), and blues, either dress or mess. Yeah, there were other uniforms but these were the main ones.
The greens were then phased out a few years ago which left two main uniforms. The idea was to save money.
I (and many others) never liked the idea of blues being normal dress. As I pointed out for over a century they were considered more formal wear.
So really this is getting more aligned with what has been traditional and with what is seen in most militaries, three basic levels of uniforms. Fatigues (casual wear) every day uniform (business to business casual), and formal.

Oh, I understand the logic. I didn't have an issue with using Class B's as the in between for a business casual for those working in an environment that combat uniforms aren't appropriate for day to day wear. I think it struck the balance between being able to use your Class A's for the more formal events and having a Class B's as a version which could be worn comfortable and look professional in an office environment. If you're in the environment, mess dress exists to bridge the gap to your even more formal black tie type events. In my opinion, most of the push to bring this uniform back really resulted from too many people disliking the fact that our uniform wasn't distinctive enough on its own when worn as Class B's to scream Army and needed to find a new uniform to rebrand the Army for appearances sake.

If we want to go back to tradition for tradition's sake to build espirit d'corps, bring back pickle suits. I know you know how many WOs that'll make happy and will be one less thing for them to complain about big Army stomping out our branch's heritage.
 
I had a pair of the rip-stop jungle fatigue trousers, with the built-in drawstrings at the legs, and the blouse.
I used to work on my car in that outfit, as a teenager. Those simply were the best.
Ah, to be a teenager working on my car again...
 
Actually, thank you for your candor. It's actually very good to get a "real world" opinion on such topics. Easy for us to sit around and say how wonderful this is or that is without thinking about how some of this stuff affects the individuals involved (and their wallets).

Personally, I have thousands of dollars of uniforms packed up in our attic that I don't have the heart to throw away...some were issued, but MOST were purchased. And most of the dress uniforms were hardly ever worn.
This exactly right here is why I said I understand its a rite of passage in my first post, but its the kind of attitude I detest. Leaders who just accept this cost soldiers hundreds of dollars. Sure, as an officer, I make enough to cover these uniforms fine without a clothing allowance, but the clothing allowance does not even cover the wear out rate of normal uniforms for my soldiers in a typical year. They're maintainers that beat the absolute crap out of their daily wear, and currently a set of ACUs costs about $110. They're supposed to have 5 on hand. I promise they go through at least 2-3 sets a year just in garrison operations, not including boots (anywhere from $100-150 for a decent set. Flight approved always range on the higher side because we have less options) which they'll destroy a set with oil stains every year. Transmission oil does not come out of pants or boots ever. We don't work with coveralls, because they aren't issued. There aren't enough A2CUs to issue to every single maintainer in a Delta or Bravo maintenance company so these folks will be working in ACUs that they will then have to replace (how we get around replacing uniforms for crew chiefs in flight companies: A2CUs are a CIF issue item only and will be replaced by the Army when deemed unserviceable unlike ACUs).

So for these folks in ACUs, that's about $400 right there not taking into account patches, nametapes, etc. or anything else they need like running shoes, undershirts, or hats (because we can't apparently not lose these) that all are required uniform items their allowances are supposed to cover. They only get about $310 a year to replace items as their clothing allowance. Anything else is covered out of pocket, and for the type of uniform that pink/greens will become, they will hardly ever wear it. It'll come out for very specific uniform inspections or boards, but that's about it. We'll still wear our Class A's to balls which is pretty much the only time these guys would wear anything besides ACUs anyways.

Even as an officer, I'll hardly wear it unless I work a job in the Pentagon or similar nature that puts me in an office. Otherwise, I'll be rocking A2CUs or ACUs on a daily basis, because for right now, I still mostly actually work for a living. Well, at least pretend to anyways.

So rant complete, but basically to sum it up, the acceptance of these kinds of changes as just part of the job is part of the disconnect that is causing my branch to have some of the highest retention issues its seen in quite a while. It might seem little, but this kind of attitude from leadership added up over the course of many, many little things forces people to go look on the outside of what they can do better with their time.

Your mechanics can and do get protective clothing including overalls and steel-toed boots from the CIF to preserve their uniforms. You can also get them for your Soldiers to wear during command maintenance. If you have not led them there, you should do so tomorrow.

Have you had these conversations with your NCOs? Battalion Maintenance Officer? Battalion Maintenance NCO? Battalion XO? With your commanders? I am certain your CSM would be willing to sit down with you on the topic.

I am also certain complaining about uniforms on an anonymous interwebs board is not the best way to solve issues as you perceive them.
 
@Casey dumb question since I'm not familiar with Army aviation.

Do your maintainers not have coveralls? In the USMC our guys (plus tracks, tankers, and other Mx ground personnel) have olive green work coveralls that are for working on birds and fine for getting covered in hyd fluid/oil/etc and are a consumable item they swap out at supply (same with steel toes). Cammies are reserved for days where they're not on the line or have to go to other base facilities.

Other than that I agree with you, as someone who will have to drop hundreds of dollars on a new blues coat here soon. 🙄
 
This exactly right here is why I said I understand its a rite of passage in my first post, but its the kind of attitude I detest. Leaders who just accept this cost soldiers hundreds of dollars. Sure, as an officer, I make enough to cover these uniforms fine without a clothing allowance, but the clothing allowance does not even cover the wear out rate of normal uniforms for my soldiers in a typical year. They're maintainers that beat the absolute crap out of their daily wear, and currently a set of ACUs costs about $110. They're supposed to have 5 on hand. I promise they go through at least 2-3 sets a year just in garrison operations, not including boots (anywhere from $100-150 for a decent set. Flight approved always range on the higher side because we have less options) which they'll destroy a set with oil stains every year. Transmission oil does not come out of pants or boots ever. We don't work with coveralls, because they aren't issued. There aren't enough A2CUs to issue to every single maintainer in a Delta or Bravo maintenance company so these folks will be working in ACUs that they will then have to replace (how we get around replacing uniforms for crew chiefs in flight companies: A2CUs are a CIF issue item only and will be replaced by the Army when deemed unserviceable unlike ACUs).

So for these folks in ACUs, that's about $400 right there not taking into account patches, nametapes, etc. or anything else they need like running shoes, undershirts, or hats (because we can't apparently not lose these) that all are required uniform items their allowances are supposed to cover. They only get about $310 a year to replace items as their clothing allowance. Anything else is covered out of pocket, and for the type of uniform that pink/greens will become, they will hardly ever wear it. It'll come out for very specific uniform inspections or boards, but that's about it. We'll still wear our Class A's to balls which is pretty much the only time these guys would wear anything besides ACUs anyways.

Even as an officer, I'll hardly wear it unless I work a job in the Pentagon or similar nature that puts me in an office. Otherwise, I'll be rocking A2CUs or ACUs on a daily basis, because for right now, I still mostly actually work for a living. Well, at least pretend to anyways.

So rant complete, but basically to sum it up, the acceptance of these kinds of changes as just part of the job is part of the disconnect that is causing my branch to have some of the highest retention issues its seen in quite a while. It might seem little, but this kind of attitude from leadership added up over the course of many, many little things forces people to go look on the outside of what they can do better with their time.




Oh, I understand the logic. I didn't have an issue with using Class B's as the in between for a business casual for those working in an environment that combat uniforms aren't appropriate for day to day wear. I think it struck the balance between being able to use your Class A's for the more formal events and having a Class B's as a version which could be worn comfortable and look professional in an office environment. If you're in the environment, mess dress exists to bridge the gap to your even more formal black tie type events. In my opinion, most of the push to bring this uniform back really resulted from too many people disliking the fact that our uniform wasn't distinctive enough on its own when worn as Class B's to scream Army and needed to find a new uniform to rebrand the Army for appearances sake.

If we want to go back to tradition for tradition's sake to build espirit d'corps, bring back pickle suits. I know you know how many WOs that'll make happy and will be one less thing for them to complain about big Army stomping out our branch's heritage.

Your mechanics can and do get protective clothing including overalls and steel-toed boots from the CIF to preserve their uniforms. You can also get them for your Soldiers to wear during command maintenance. If you have not led them there, you should do so tomorrow.

Have you had these conversations with your NCOs? Battalion Maintenance Officer? Battalion Maintenance NCO? Battalion XO? With your commanders? I am certain your CSM would be willing to sit down with you on the topic.

I am also certain complaining about uniforms on an anonymous interwebs board is not the best way to solve issues as you perceive them
 
@Casey dumb question since I'm not familiar with Army aviation.

Do your maintainers not have coveralls? In the USMC our guys (plus tracks, tankers, and other Mx ground personnel) have olive green work coveralls that are for working on birds and fine for getting covered in hyd fluid/oil/etc and are a consumable item they swap out at supply (same with steel toes). Cammies are reserved for days where they're not on the line or have to go to other base facilities.

Other than that I agree with you, as someone who will have to drop hundreds of dollars on a new blues coat here soon. 🙄
Army Aviation keeps insisting that aviators look like infantry, so every time the Army comes out with a new camouflage pattern Army Aviation spends millions of dollars designing a new flight suit that looks the same.
 
This exactly right here is why I said I understand its a rite of passage in my first post, but its the kind of attitude I detest. Leaders who just accept this cost soldiers hundreds of dollars. Sure, as an officer, I make enough to cover these uniforms fine without a clothing allowance, but the clothing allowance does not even cover the wear out rate of normal uniforms for my soldiers in a typical year. They're maintainers that beat the absolute crap out of their daily wear, and currently a set of ACUs costs about $110. They're supposed to have 5 on hand. I promise they go through at least 2-3 sets a year just in garrison operations, not including boots (anywhere from $100-150 for a decent set. Flight approved always range on the higher side because we have less options) which they'll destroy a set with oil stains every year. Transmission oil does not come out of pants or boots ever. We don't work with coveralls, because they aren't issued. There aren't enough A2CUs to issue to every single maintainer in a Delta or Bravo maintenance company so these folks will be working in ACUs that they will then have to replace (how we get around replacing uniforms for crew chiefs in flight companies: A2CUs are a CIF issue item only and will be replaced by the Army when deemed unserviceable unlike ACUs).

So for these folks in ACUs, that's about $400 right there not taking into account patches, nametapes, etc. or anything else they need like running shoes, undershirts, or hats (because we can't apparently not lose these) that all are required uniform items their allowances are supposed to cover. They only get about $310 a year to replace items as their clothing allowance. Anything else is covered out of pocket, and for the type of uniform that pink/greens will become, they will hardly ever wear it. It'll come out for very specific uniform inspections or boards, but that's about it. We'll still wear our Class A's to balls which is pretty much the only time these guys would wear anything besides ACUs anyways.

Even as an officer, I'll hardly wear it unless I work a job in the Pentagon or similar nature that puts me in an office. Otherwise, I'll be rocking A2CUs or ACUs on a daily basis, because for right now, I still mostly actually work for a living. Well, at least pretend to anyways.

So rant complete, but basically to sum it up, the acceptance of these kinds of changes as just part of the job is part of the disconnect that is causing my branch to have some of the highest retention issues its seen in quite a while. It might seem little, but this kind of attitude from leadership added up over the course of many, many little things forces people to go look on the outside of what they can do better with their time.




Oh, I understand the logic. I didn't have an issue with using Class B's as the in between for a business casual for those working in an environment that combat uniforms aren't appropriate for day to day wear. I think it struck the balance between being able to use your Class A's for the more formal events and having a Class B's as a version which could be worn comfortable and look professional in an office environment. If you're in the environment, mess dress exists to bridge the gap to your even more formal black tie type events. In my opinion, most of the push to bring this uniform back really resulted from too many people disliking the fact that our uniform wasn't distinctive enough on its own when worn as Class B's to scream Army and needed to find a new uniform to rebrand the Army for appearances sake.

If we want to go back to tradition for tradition's sake to build espirit d'corps, bring back pickle suits. I know you know how many WOs that'll make happy and will be one less thing for them to complain about big Army stomping out our branch's heritage.

Class B's?? Where are you based? Tough to wear them right now. Class B's in the past were the greens minus the jacket. There was no equivalent in ""blues". You always wore it with the jacket. Since 1902 the "dress blue" was retained only for dress, full dress, dress mess and formal. During WWI and WWII wear of the blues was suspended.
Frankly, I never remember anyone who liked the "greens". The common lament was why we just didn't stick with the pink and greens. Talk of bringing back the pink and greens has been going on for years.
I don't think Big Army cares about the flight suit. I think it's Aviation Branch leadership that keeps throwing millions of dollars at the two pieces flight suit every few years when the Army changes the camouflage pattern.
 
@Casey dumb question since I'm not familiar with Army aviation.

Do your maintainers not have coveralls? In the USMC our guys (plus tracks, tankers, and other Mx ground personnel) have olive green work coveralls that are for working on birds and fine for getting covered in hyd fluid/oil/etc and are a consumable item they swap out at supply (same with steel toes). Cammies are reserved for days where they're not on the line or have to go to other base facilities.

Other than that I agree with you, as someone who will have to drop hundreds of dollars on a new blues coat here soon. 🙄

Not a dumb question. Ground mechanics do. Aviation maintainers don't. The best we can do generally is draw A2CUs (flight suits) to provide because they can be DXd when they're available for issue to non flight related positions as all our 15 series MOS's are authorized to wear them. We just run into supply issues with the flight suits that priority goes to flying positions first (not arguing that makes sense lol) and if you are issued them, you'll generally only have 2-3 sets on your hand receipt unless you've scrounged up some extra through a RFI draw or made friends with CIF.


Your mechanics can and do get protective clothing including overalls and steel-toed boots from the CIF to preserve their uniforms. You can also get them for your Soldiers to wear during command maintenance. If you have not led them there, you should do so tomorrow.

Have you had these conversations with your NCOs? Battalion Maintenance Officer? Battalion Maintenance NCO? Battalion XO? With your commanders? I am certain your CSM would be willing to sit down with you on the topic.

I am also certain complaining about uniforms on an anonymous interwebs board is not the best way to solve issues as you perceive them

Soldiergriz, I'm curious how junior you perceive my views. I'm not an old grad by any stretch of the imagination, but I also didn't graduate yesterday. I'm also not sure what you think implying that I haven't actively tried to sort out these issues with the resources available when I was assigned to the company level achieves. I'm going to assume its the fact tone doesn't always translate well across the internet on both sides. See my reply above to Hurricane12 about coveralls. As for boots, steel-toe doesn't matter; its the coyote/tan exterior that picks up coloring no matter what with oils and airplane grease.

As for complaining, I understand there's no fixing the world's problems here. My intent was to generate discussion (looks like I was successful) by bringing a differing opinion to the table about the discussion at hand on opinions on this uniform. If you feel that this is unproductive dialogue, there is no requirement for you to pay attention to anything that I say. It is the internet after all.

Class B's?? Where are you based? Tough to wear them right now. Class B's in the past were the greens minus the jacket. There was no equivalent in ""blues". You always wore it with the jacket. Since 1902 the "dress blue" was retained only for dress, full dress, dress mess and formal. During WWI and WWII wear of the blues was suspended.
Frankly, I never remember anyone who liked the "greens". The common lament was why we just didn't stick with the pink and greens. Talk of bringing back the pink and greens has been going on for years.
I don't think Big Army cares about the flight suit. I think it's Aviation Branch leadership that keeps throwing millions of dollars at the two pieces flight suit every few years when the Army changes the camouflage pattern.

I'm between duty stations for schooling. Spent the last few years in Korea. Class B's are the same concept for ASU's: everything except the jacket. Class A's are with jacket. That's not a Korea'ism. That's an across the Army thing. Folks working in positions like USMA or office jobs wear Class B's a good portion of the time when they need a uniform that's not all the way formal (and more comfortable).

Fair assessment for the weather though although most people don't purchase sweater that you can wear over the white shirt that definitely helps with and I think also existed with the greens from what I remember. There's also a short black windbreaker if you need something to go over the white shirt or the sweater if its really that cold.

And you're probably right, but right now financially is also not a great time for the AV branch to try to sell itself as "different" so I actually don't mind the two piece flight suit; it does seem like an easy win though for big Army to try to throw something at the WO corps to keep some of them that feel like their culture is dying.
 
I have done hundreds, if not thousands, of reenlistment interviews.

You implied uniform transitions and costs were driving some Soldiers to leave the service.

I have never heard a Soldier say they were leaving the service because of uniforms. Never.

I have also never heard an officer say uniforms were driving their decision to leave the service. Never.

It's not a thing. Perhaps it is your wind mill to slay. So, yes it is the internet - slay away.
 
No, I was responding originally to the statement it was a rite of passage with the implication that people should just get over it because it happens as a normal course of operations. To me, its an indicator of the perceived dismissive attitude quoted by many people transitioning out that their quality of life concerns don't matter to their senior leaders, fairly or not. Many of the things that go into quality of life can seem petty or trivial when explicitly stated as solitary events such as in this case of being required to buy new uniforms. I argue that these little things begin to add up, and yes, quality of life is a driving factor for many of my branch leaving. I wouldn't have had to proof so many packets requesting transition to the Coast Guard if it wasn't :rolleyes:
 
No, I was responding originally to the statement it was a rite of passage with the implication that people should just get over it because it happens as a normal course of operations. To me, its an indicator of the perceived dismissive attitude quoted by many people transitioning out that their quality of life concerns don't matter to their senior leaders, fairly or not. Many of the things that go into quality of life can seem petty or trivial when explicitly stated as solitary events such as in this case of being required to buy new uniforms. I argue that these little things begin to add up, and yes, quality of life is a driving factor for many of my branch leaving. I wouldn't have had to proof so many packets requesting transition to the Coast Guard if it wasn't :rolleyes:
It’s funny you should say this. The pink and greens was more a response to the lower ranks than a top driven decision. I was prior enlisted... a few years ago... and we talked about it then. You’re the first negative I have heard. Maybe you should talk to your troops.
 
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We wore those polyester "greens" in the USAF before they phased in the BDU's. I think we called them "Lizard Skins"...they were the absolute worst. Though they did look pretty snappy with shiny black combat boots however. I remember thinking that the BDU's, although infinitely more comfortable and functional than the greens, looked kind of baggy and sloppy. My Father was in the Army and came home from SE Asia in 1968 in the cotton rip-stop jungle fatigues...those were the BEST.
Would much rather have the solid green fatigues than the ABU’s or the OCP’s. The ABU’s were/are bad and the Air Force OCP’s are a train wreck. You can’t even tell what rank someone is in OCP’s unless you’re close enough to touch them. Whoever thought brown lettering on a brown-ish uniform was a good idea? I would rather have seen the AF stick with ABU’s and use the funds for OCP’s instead to revamp the service uniform, and get rid of that awful civilian-looking blue jacket.
 
I have done hundreds, if not thousands, of reenlistment interviews.

You implied uniform transitions and costs were driving some Soldiers to leave the service.

I have never heard a Soldier say they were leaving the service because of uniforms. Never.

I have also never heard an officer say uniforms were driving their decision to leave the service. Never.

It's not a thing. Perhaps it is your wind mill to slay. So, yes it is the internet - slay away.

Perhaps uniforms were not driving the decision to leave, but another drop in the bucket. It’s not why not, but why should we. Tan boots were better because we didn’t have to shine them, but shining boots is a tradition, right of passage. My 7 years of active and 18 + years of NG/Reserves, I hardly wore my greens and dress blues. I equate pink and green to the black beret. Or if you are familiar with Baltimore, I see the similarities with local politicians instead of focusing on addressing 300+ murders, passing a meaningless resolution condemning Trump, banning straws, or creating bike lanes. I am got a wind turbine to slay.
 
Perhaps uniforms were not driving the decision to leave, but another drop in the bucket. It’s not why not, but why should we. Tan boots were better because we didn’t have to shine them, but shining boots is a tradition, right of passage. My 7 years of active and 18 + years of NG/Reserves, I hardly wore my greens and dress blues. I equate pink and green to the black beret. Or if you are familiar with Baltimore, I see the similarities with local politicians instead of focusing on addressing 300+ murders, passing a meaningless resolution condemning Trump, banning straws, or creating bike lanes. I am got a wind turbine to slay.

Ha ha. The difference between the black beret and the new uniforms....is Soldiers were the driving force FOR them.
 
Ha ha. The difference between the black beret and the new uniforms....is Soldiers were the driving force FOR them.
This. The black beret was top driven and was (is) universally loathed. The pink and greens were driven by the ranks.
 
Rip-Stop was great. Still have a couple of blouses but unfortunately the pants don't fit. They must have shrunk. When our "Freedom Bird" stopped at Clark in Manilla and after the dogs walked through our duffel bags we were told that we would have to change to stateside uniforms as wearing jungle fatigues was not allowed on the flight and arrival at Travis. You can imagine those uniforms were all neatly pressed from traveling in a duffel. We must have looked like Sledge from Sgt. Mike.
 
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