Plan b college is angry

Discussion in 'Service Academy Parents' started by Mom22, Aug 10, 2016.

  1. VelveteenR

    VelveteenR Just gathering dust in the nursery...

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    That's all there is to this entire discussion. I'm amazed at so many points of view. You pay the deposit. You decide not to attend (for any reason whatsoever--maybe you decide you don't like the school colors). You simply call or e-mail, "I will not be attending," no explanation required. You forfeit the deposit. Everyone moves on. There is no moral issue here at all. None. Absolutely nothing different than putting a deposit on an apartment you decide not to rent.
     
  2. Dadof2

    Dadof2 Member

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    Just had to quote this from the 2nd post in this thread.
     
  3. cb7893

    cb7893 5-Year Member

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    Thank you.
     
  4. jl123

    jl123 Member

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    Put the shoe on the other foot. Does it change the question of morality? Is it just bad behavior? Or simply a smart move in a competitive world?:

    You accept an offer to go to college X, but also get an appointment to USMA. You’re wavering and just in case you might change your mind, you accept the appointment to USMA. You pay the deposit. You never agreed to actually show up – just to complete the four billion tasks on the portal.

    One week before R Day you decide not to attend USMA (for any reason whatsoever--maybe you decide you don't like the school colors). You simply call or e-mail, "I will not be attending," no explanation required. You forfeit the deposit. Everyone moves on. There is no moral issue here at all. None. Absolutely nothing different than putting a deposit on an apartment you decide not to rent.
     
  5. MemberLG

    MemberLG 5-Year Member

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    As a single action, what you described above is correct. But we are not discussing a single action. How about parking in a handicap parking if you are not handicapped but willing to pay the fine if you get ticketed? We could even add that many handicap parking permit holders not really handicapped anyway. When you get a ticket, no explanation required, just pay the fine. How about a doubling the price of a generator after a natural disaster, it's just supply and demand? If there are people willing to pay more, why not charge more?

    Paying deposits to two schools (notice I am not using the word committing) is the connection that makes the Plan B deposit a moral issue.
     
  6. parentalunit2

    parentalunit2 5-Year Member

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    Service academies are a special situation because I know of no other institution of higher learning that requires dental records and a life insurance beneficiary upon admission.

    Yes, that’s exactly what it is. Talk to anyone who has needed to utilize the Plan B due to medical/injury and they will tell you how very screwed their kid would have been for one year if they had not left a deposit with the Plan B school.

    And as to jl123’s post #64 above, that happens every year. SA’s know there will be a few each year that will be no shows, with or without notification to the academy. Given that, shall we now discuss how unethical it is to accept, show up, go for the first two years, and then take the escape hatch that is not making the commitment the night before junior year classes begin? No, we shall not, because the academy itself builds that in as an option for you.

    For years folks have been encouraged to double deposit due to the many issues that could arise during the summer. As the world is becoming increasingly more competitive, I don’t see that changing any time soon.
     
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  7. ktnatalk

    ktnatalk Sailor. Shipmate. Parent.

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    I respectfully disagree with the examples you used to compare. IMHO they are not the same.

    Just dug this email up from my archive:

    RE: Disenrollment from Honors College
    We've made this Enrollment Decision adjustment for your son's record in the University Admissions system. We're sorry to see him go but wish him all the best in his future educational endeavors.
    Please feel free to let us know if you have any further questions.
    Best Regards,
    Office of Undergraduate Admissions

    -----Original Message-----
    Subject: Disenrollment from Honors College
    To whom it may concern,
    I regret to inform you that my son, who reported to U.S. Naval Academy on Induction Day and had undergone Plebe Summer training, has decided to enroll in their undergraduate program as a Midshipman.
    Please disenroll him from the University and confirm receipt of this email. Thank you.

    We waited till the last possible moment before informing the plan b school, making sure he was not going to be sent home for medical reasons - the one thing that we have zero control over.

    Can you have the name of the school? As much as I would like to give it to you, it is useless. Administrators and policies change all the time. What work in his situation then might not work today or in the future.

    TBH, we never thought of having a plan b and putting down a deposit (didn't do it for DD) before reading the recommendations on SAF - IT MAKES SENSE!
     
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  8. Capri120

    Capri120 Parent

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    ktnatalk, as you mentioned, it could have been that we, too, talked to and coordinated with the right people or those having a "good" day and not someone in admissions that would have done what the original OP stated.

    DD sent a similar email to two offices at her Plan B, as requested by the person we spoke with ahead of time and it read as follows:

    XX Administration:

    First, I would like to thank you for accepting me to the University of _____ (XX) and the scholarship offers.

    However, I have recently completed the first phase of my program at the United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) in Colorado Springs, Colorado and will be continuing my college education at USAFA on 11 August.

    Therefore, I will not be attending my scheduled XX orientation on 17 August. I will also not be attending XX for the Fall semester.

    Once again, thank you for your consideration and opportunity to be part of the _____ family.

    Respectfully,

    I do not have a copy of their reply since DD sent it from her email; but, was not negative or I would have heard about it.

    Also, when an SA and a Plan B college is involved, there is only ONE deposit. I know we didn't pay USAFA a deposit/fee to hold DD's spot.
     
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  9. ktnatalk

    ktnatalk Sailor. Shipmate. Parent.

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    We paid the deposit and did not disclose his intention ahead of time, to insure the safety net is there if he needs it. The only "clue" he sent them was cancelling his housing and dining agreement before they were going to charge him prior to leaving for I day. USNA became his #1 choice after CVW he didn't even want to do anything with plan b. My wife and I also proceeded carefully because we didn't want him to think/remember the existence of plan b when the going got tough during plebe summer. The fact that the surprising higher number of DOR (drop on request aka Tango'd) this year - I wonder, is it because partly due to the record temperatures in Annapolis this summer, or partly due to the success of our recommendation in having plan b on SAF (being used as a way out), or both?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2016
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  10. VelveteenR

    VelveteenR Just gathering dust in the nursery...

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    It is none of these. There is no shoe; there is no foot. No one is hurt. You paid and forfeited a deposit for the right to decline. You exercised that right. No freshman class is going to be one short because your kid declines. If a college even wants to fill your kid's spot (our son's plan B was overenrolled), they have a wait list. This is the way all schools work, even the academies. I must live in another world because none of this discussion ever occurred to any of us (and still doesn't hit my radar screen).

    There is a whole discipline called "yield" which is based on how many slots a school has to fill, how many applicants will not accept, and how many will not show up to help a school determine how many offers to send out. No school our son applied to sent out a 1:1 ratio of offers to slots. They've been doing this math a long time. Just like the academies.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2016
  11. cb7893

    cb7893 5-Year Member

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    Why is this so difficult to understand? Especially given the fact that right was earned.
     
  12. USMAROTCFamily

    USMAROTCFamily Member

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    While Service Academies don't demand a "deposit" (although I think USMA asked for $2,000 upfront), they are still "accepting admission" to two institutions. I think the following spells things out quite clearly.

    From the College Board to education specialists:

    Application Ethics

    Explaining the rules to students and families
    How do you counsel students and families on application ethics? The complexities and pressures of the college application process can result in students and parents skirting the edges of ethical behavior in order to gain an edge in admission. Some may not understand the formal or informal agreements they've entered into; others may be well aware that they are trying to "game the system.”

    Basic application ethics
    Be sure your students know that they can't:

    • Fabricate or exaggerate activities and accomplishments.
    • Have someone else write or substantially rewrite their essays.
    • Fail to disclose disciplinary infractions if asked directly about them on an application form. (Colleges generally give applicants a chance to explain infractions.)
    • Tell more than one college that it's their first choice.
    • Mislead a college about their intended major just because they think it might help them get in.
    • Fail to notify the other colleges that have accepted them when they accept an admission offer.
    Let students and parents know your school's policies regarding college applications (for example, that you will tell colleges about any disciplinary infractions or changes in a student's academic status that happen between the time you write a recommendation and graduation). Consider including these policies in handouts to students and parents as well as in annual publications.

    Early decision programs
    Make sure your students understand what early decision and early action programs are and what restrictions apply to any early application program they intend to pursue. See Early Decision & Early Action for more information.

    Early decision programs (and some types of early action programs) arebinding. If a student applies to a college early decision, that student is agreeing to attend if accepted.

    Make sure your students know they can't:

    • Apply to early decision programs at more than one college. Many colleges now ask that counselors sign their students' early decision applications, and NACAC's guidelines bar members from signing more than one per student per application season.
    • Fail to withdraw their applications to other colleges after they've been accepted to a college under a binding early decision program. The only acceptable reason not to withdraw other applications immediately is that the student is waiting to hear about financial aid.
    • Try to get out of the early decision contract because the student's mind has changed. The only acceptable circumstance under which to break the contract, according to NACAC, is the following: "Should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible, the student may decline the offer of admission and be released from the Early Decision commitment" (from NACAC'sStatement of Principles).
    Note that many colleges have nonbinding early action plans, in which the student can apply (and get a decision) early but is not required to commit to attending the college.

    Double deposits
    Double depositing means putting down a deposit, and thus accepting admission, at more than one college. Since a student can’t attend multiple colleges, it is considered unethical. Why might students and families do this, considering that it would mean forfeiting one deposit? The main reasons are:

    • To buy time to decide on a college when the student has been accepted by more than one. The usual decision deadline is May 1; by double depositing, a student can delay deciding until fall.
    • To continue negotiating financial aid offers with more than one college past the May 1 decision deadline.
    • Because the student is on a waiting list at one college and wants to ensure enrollment somewhere in case of being turned down. This scenario is the only one in which NACAC considers double depositing acceptable.
    Why is double depositing unethical?
    It's deceitful. Students know they can only attend one college, so they are essentially lying when they notify more than one that they intend to enroll.

    It's unfair to the college. If the practice continues, colleges may find they can't predict the size of the incoming class with any accuracy. They may take actions such as enlarging the waiting list or increasing deposit amounts (both of which will impact future applicants).

    It's unfair to other applicants. The double depositor is taking up a spot that could go to another student, who will instead be put on a waiting list or turned down.

    What should you do?
    • Tell students not to submit deposits to more than one college, unless they are wait-listed at their first choice and accepted at another.
    • Consider instituting a policy of sending each student's final transcript to only one college.
    • Warn students that some colleges reserve the right to rescind an offer of admission if they discover that a student has made a double deposit.
     
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  13. Capri120

    Capri120 Parent

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    DD told Plan B college from the beginning in all communications and forms filled out that the were second choice.
     
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  14. jl123

    jl123 Member

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    Some items to contemplate:
    • The kid checking his service academy portal every day hoping for a change that will never occur because of the kid who wanted to hedge his bets.
    • The promise made to the civilian college not to engage in this practice when you signed and submitted the Common Application. (the application can't be processed without it)
    • The ability of your high school counselor to advocate for future students applying to the Plan B college that got stiffed.
    When a butterfly flaps its wings in one part of the world it can cause a hurricane in another part of the world. Actions have consequences whether we recognize them or not.
     
  15. VelveteenR

    VelveteenR Just gathering dust in the nursery...

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    We'll just to enjoy the diversity of opinions on this board. I doubt anyone is being swayed to one side or the other.
     
  16. MemberLG

    MemberLG 5-Year Member

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    I believe we have reached a culminating point. I believe jl123, USMAROTCFamily, and myself were the minority that didn't like, uncomfortable, and/or against the Plan B deposit plan. Our opinions carried little weigh, but I believe what USMAROTCFamily posted is creditable and substantial case against the Plan B deposit plan. But folks supporting the Plan B deposit will keep on going with individual stories and examples why it is okay. I am okay with that.

    I am not posting to tell someone what they did was wrong or pass judgment on their actions, but trying to provide another view to parent/candidate considering the Plan B deposit plan. I just didn't want someone new to the forum reading this forum and reaching a conclusion that making a deposit to a Plan B school is okay without giving a thoughtful consideration. Ultimately, the parent and/or candidate might still reach the same conclusion even after reading some of the dissenting posts. I am okay with that as my role is to advise/suggest, not try to change someone else mind.
     
  17. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006 5-Year Member

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    Also consider that the college has the leverage, which, if we're talking ethics, isn't exactly even here.

    We often here questions about offers being revoked.

    You're not selling your soul. You're not a slave to the school. Why would a college attempt to lock you in if you can quit after the semester starts (and you've paid)?

    Money.

    I paid an application fee of $50 to Wash U. I paid $3,000 to the Coast Guard Academy once I accepted.

    Fees are leverage against the a occasional decision changes.



    This also happens in the job world. Apply and interview, while you're waiting for the final paperwork... Keep interviewing. An employer has to make the offer and decision attractive or you can walk.
     
  18. Capt MJ

    Capt MJ 5-Year Member

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    This issue would make an excellent class discussion for USNA 3/c Ethics class: what would Kant advise? Aristotle?
    Or, a topic for a Service Academy debate team.
     
  19. ktnatalk

    ktnatalk Sailor. Shipmate. Parent.

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    Agree, CAPT, though the discussion of Fat Leonard scandal involving VADM Miller, VADM Branch (served as DCNO with a suspended security clearance), and others should probably deserve a higher precedence.
     
  20. ktnatalk

    ktnatalk Sailor. Shipmate. Parent.

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    The posts about $3000 deposit for CGA and $2000 deposit for USMA - is that real? They REQUIRE a deposit???
     

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