Plebe Summer - First Phone Call on Sunday July 11th

Luigi59 said:
The USNA IG's report detailing a two-tiered honor system doesn't seem to indicate that the Supe practiced what you preached.

Obviously, he followed the rules he wanted to follow, and ignored ones he didn't, especially when it came to all of the "inconsistencies with his application of the honor system."
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I haven't seen an IG report on this, much less one that supports your conclusions. Would you mind sharing it?
 
Luigi59 said:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...al-academy-report-honor0714,0,371643.htmlpage
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Make sure you pay close attention to the cases on pages 10, 11, 12, and 13.

Sure pays at USNA to be the daughter of a flag officer or a football player when it comes to Jeff Fowler decidng to kick you out or not. :rolleyes:

"Honor violation inconsistencies" and the excuses presented by Fowler, both for retaining certain Mids while expelling others, are laughable on paper but very distressing to know that each one of them represents a real person caught up Fowler's stained legacy.
 
Remember when this thread was about phone calls and not about indulging personal vendettas and jealousies on all sides of an issue that's being discussed in another thread?
 
Mongo said:
I guess we just have a different definition of 'perfunctory'. You have added 'needless' to my definition of 'routine and rote'. I always thought 'perfunctory' described more an attitude than a ruling on the necessity of the action. Under my definition, one could paraphase the old saying that flight is 99% perfunctory and 1% pure terror. We will just have to wait for some of the language experts to chime in with their interpretation.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the concept of whether 'rules' are 'rules', or not. And of course you have taken the position of what parents want to hear, not what is actually proper.
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Fair enough.

As long as you realize that I am not vying for popularity amongst the parents.

I have said some extremely unpopular things (from the parent perspective) on the USNA parent list-server, the most heavily moderated, highly restrictive, and politically correct network every created; yet a great resource for many things amongst the parent community. It is very sanitized. There are a lot of discussions about sunshine, lollipops, rainbows and puppy dogs.

About the worst post on the network will be something like: "My mid's car broke down in North Carolina and he has to be back for Block 3 by Thursday. He is really stressing out. Does anybody know of a good and reputable car mechanic in the Selma, NC area?"

For instance, the recent controversy of no-grease-on-Herndon for the Class of 2013 was squashed by the moderators.

But, that's OK. At least there is no pretense about the purpose of the list-server. The theme seems to be, "If you have something critical to say - keep it to yourself."

For instance, you could never talk (at length) about Bruce Fleming articles, the Admiral Fowler slush fund and his minority recruiting bonanza, midshipmen who are being retained who should be booted, or just about any scandal. The topic of midshipmen being "voluntold" into a service selection not of their choosing will almost certainly get you a scolding from one of the fleet of moderators - one of whom is an Admiral. And, unlike this forum, midshipmen cannot participate in the network, by confirming or denying anything being discussed about the operation of the Brigade or the actual implementation of any policies.

For instance, around this time last year, when the first Plebe phones calls were being made, many parents were chiming on the list-server about how much their Plebe was enjoying Plebe Summer and what a great experience it was.

I chimed in with a general comment about how their Plebe was just being "nice" to them during the phone call. No Plebe enjoys Plebe Summer. They may find it manageable. They may find it doable. They may find it not as hard as they thought. But they definitely want it to be over. They are not "enjoying" it to the extent that they are waking up every morning and thinking. "Oh, goody gumdrops, another wonderful day of Plebe Summer. I hope this never ends."

The parents didn't want to hear that. I did not win a lot of "brownie points" from those parents who wanted to bask in the delusion that Billy was at summer camp and enjoying every moment. I rained on their parade. And then I got private messages from the moderators to cease that line of discussion. And yet, I was getting private messages from a select group of parents who did not get that "all is great" phone call.

Seriously, what parent is going to broadcast on a widely read forum about how their son/daughter is struggling and not enjoying the experience? By only reading the parent list-server, you would think that they were all having a grand time at Camp Chesapeake. They have camp fires, makes s'mores, tell ghost stories, and have pillow fights every night.

I made the unpopular (amongst the parents) observation that their Plebe was probably not having quite as peachy of a time as he may have led you to believe. He was probably just being nice and telling mommy something that wouldn't worry her. Many Plebes often do that.

My only point is this - I'm not trying to win any popularity contests with the parents - if that's what you think.

This forum isn't really a "Parent Network" anyway.

Yes, I think agreeing to disagree is probably the best way to go on this highly volatile issue of Friday morning PEP.

I can't wait to show my wife that I have actually been accused of telling people what they want to hear. Am I telling you what you want to hear? I think it's fair to say, no matter what one says, there will always be somebody who wants to hear it and somebody who does not want to hear it. The best way to be popular is to say nothing at all and have no opinions on anything controversial.
 
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Brilliant post, Memphis.

While I have no issue discussing the "hard" or controversial issues, we must (and I tread lightly here) be mindful that there are some who revel in thrusting controversy to the forefront in these forums. This is not a place for that.

I don't believe in shooting the messenger, but I'm not afraid to ask why he/she takes such joy in delivering the news.
 
scoutpilot said:
Remember when this thread was about phone calls and not about indulging personal vendettas and jealousies on all sides of an issue that's being discussed in another thread?
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Yep, once Mongo started admonishing other people to "follow the rules," it evolved into a "rule following" discussion. Internet discussions frequently ebb and flow on different subjects within threads, regardless of what they were originally about. Shutting them down just because Mongo took if off-topic is not fair to him, he should be allowed some leeway to make his points about rule following, accepting all rebuttal comments as well, before taking it back to a "phone call" thread, don't you think?
 
Luigi59 said:
Make sure you pay close attention to the cases on pages 10, 11, 12, and 13.


Sure pays at USNA to be the daughter of a flag officer or a football player when it comes to Jeff Fowler decidng to kick you out or not. :rolleyes:
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Not that this really merits a response:

Page 10, are you referring to the one where he simply concurred with the Brigade Honor Committee?
Page 11, are you referring to the one where he simply concurred with the Commandant?
Page 12, are you referring to the one where he concurred with the Company officer, The Batt Officer, and the Commandant?
Page 13, the Admiral's daughter. He simply concurred with the Commandant and the professor actually went before the board and testified that she was not guility.

As the Commandant was reported to have stated in the report, better communications are required to prevent the wild speculation.

Don't know how to break it to you, but there has been, is, and will be variations in punishment for the same type infraction. Ones accomplishments, or lack thereof, leading up to the infraction, will be weighed.

Like both the Navy PAO and CNO office attempted to, with no avail, relay to the BS, don't read to much into an August change of command. Even Admiral Fowler will probably admit that there is no worse month than September. The new Supt has been blessed by Congress. Let him go at it.
 
scoutpilot said:
While I have no issue discussing the "hard" or controversial issues, we must (and I tread lightly here) be mindful that there are some who revel in thrusting controversy to the forefront in these forums. This is not a place for that.

I don't believe in shooting the messenger, but I'm not afraid to ask why he/she takes such joy in delivering the news.
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I have no problem with the controversial issues at all. I just think they belong down at the bottom instead of up here where hard cold gouge should be passed and where I feel the little snippets of innuendos do not belong.
 
I chimed in with a general comment about how their Plebe was just being "nice" to them during the phone call. No Plebe enjoys Plebe Summer. They may find it manageable. They may find it doable. They may find it not as hard as they thought. But they definitely want it to be over. They are not "enjoying" it to the extent that they are waking up every morning and thinking. "Oh, goody gumdrops, another wonderful day of Plebe Summer. I hope this never ends."

The parents didn't want to hear that. I did not win a lot of "brownie points" from those parents who wanted to bask in the delusion that Billy was at summer camp and enjoying every moment. I rained on their parade. And then I got private messages from the moderators to cease that line of discussion. And yet, I was getting private messages from a select group of parents who did not get that "all is great" phone call.

Seriously, what parent is going to broadcast on a widely read forum about how their son/daughter is struggling and not enjoying the experience? By only reading the parent list-server, you would think that they were all having a grand time at Camp Chesapeake. They have camp fires, makes s'mores, tell ghost stories, and have pillow fights every night.

I made the unpopular (amongst the parents) observation that their Plebe was probably not having quite as peachy of a time as he may have led you to believe. He was probably just being nice and telling mommy something that wouldn't worry her. Many Plebes often do that.

My only point is this - I'm not trying to win any popularity contests with the parents - if that's what you think.
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Memphis -

You sound like "Dr. House" (from the TV series) - I love it!!
 
Memphis9489:
For instance, around this time last year, when the first Plebe phones calls were being made, many parents were chiming on the list-server about how much their Plebe was enjoying Plebe Summer and what a great experience it was.

I chimed in with a general comment about how their Plebe was just being "nice" to them during the phone call. No Plebe enjoys Plebe Summer. They may find it manageable. They may find it doable. They may find it not as hard as they thought. But they definitely want it to be over. They are not "enjoying" it to the extent that they are waking up every morning and thinking. "Oh, goody gumdrops, another wonderful day of Plebe Summer. I hope this never ends."

The parents didn't want to hear that. I did not win a lot of "brownie points" from those parents who wanted to bask in the delusion that Billy was at summer camp and enjoying every moment. I rained on their parade. And then I got private messages from the moderators to cease that line of discussion. And yet, I was getting private messages from a select group of parents who did not get that "all is great" phone call.

Seriously, what parent is going to broadcast on a widely read forum about how their son/daughter is struggling and not enjoying the experience? By only reading the parent list-server, you would think that they were all having a grand time at Camp Chesapeake. They have camp fires, makes s'mores, tell ghost stories, and have pillow fights every night.

I made the unpopular (amongst the parents) observation that their Plebe was probably not having quite as peachy of a time as he may have led you to believe. He was probably just being nice and telling mommy something that wouldn't worry her. Many Plebes often do that.
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And I thought it was a lovely segue back into the phone-call issue :thumb:
 
Well---as a new plebe mom with no knowledge of anything---i sometimes enjoy the fact that the discussions can border on improper politics. To get the full idea of all they will be exposed to and all they will experience helps me personally to know it isn't perfect. The real world isn't. If it was would there really be a need for any service academy? And as i said before we didn't get the summer camp routine. We got the truth from a open minded smart young man who you cant try to pull the wool over his eyes and expect him to roll over and take it. I think the kids who are offered this appointment are exactly the type to think and feel and analyze. Isn't that what got them there in the first place? We need to get all sides and opinions that is the only way we can even begin to understand what they are going through and be here to advise them. My next call may even be a lot like the first but at least i know he is still there and he hasn't had a lobotomy. I think if my child had said oh its great i could do this for all four years yelling in my face is fun and the uniforms are comfortable , the air conditioning is turned on high and the mints on my pillow are fantastic. I would be more concerned than i am with a not so good call. They are being molded to yell over engines to their crew and remember its due north not south aren't they??
 
blackhawkmom said:
not so good call from DS. contemplating T company. He sounded great said it wasn't any of the physical or even the mental stuff. Just is questioning if this is really the future for him. He made valid points and is going through all the correct channels for counseling. Our concern -1st he hasn't given it enough time yet and he kept mentioning the costs to stay . Uniforms and computers and everything else he would have to pay back if he stays til the end of summer then leaves. He is unbelievably money conscience and we worry that is his real reason for leaving. glad most of you received great calls we unfortunately are in limbo.
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The Naval Academy experience is not defined by Plebe Summer. It's an impressionable part of it - but it is a small part of it.

You have to be able to see beyond Plebe Summer. You can't think that you are going to march around in dorky looking white works with a "dixie cup" on your head for your Naval career while somebody yells at you. A little foresight helps heal the wounds of Plebe Summer.

But, sadly, a parent can't do that for the Plebe. This is a mature realization he has to make on his own.

Remind him WHY he originally wanted to come there.

Ask him if he KNEW that Plebe Summer was supposed to be difficult.

Remind him that it is normal to think about quitting - but most never do.

Don't give him permission to quit. He'll be looking for it. Don't make it easy for him. He hasn't been there long enough to make an intelligent decision whether the Navy is right for him.

Nobody has ever graduated from the Naval Academy and said, "I'm sure sorry I ever did that."

In general, it's not a fun school. There are moments when it can be extremely fun ... but that would not be a fair, general characterization of it. And this is why so many grads say, "It's a good place to be from."

As I've said many times before: If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.
 
Spot on. Memphis. My son's first letter said "This place doesn't suck as bad as I thought it would." While not profound, we got the message. "It sucks, but I am getting through." I was grateful he wasn't hating it more, because I think he would spill his guts and tell us exactly how he felt. Now, we hear the good, the bad and the ugly. Always the underlying message is that he is where he wants to be.
 
jennyp said:
Spot on. Memphis. My son's first letter said "This place doesn't suck as bad as I thought it would." While not profound, we got the message. "It sucks, but I am getting through." I was grateful he wasn't hating it more, because I think he would spill his guts and tell us exactly how he felt. Now, we hear the good, the bad and the ugly. Always the underlying message is that he is where he wants to be.
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Midshipmen can be hilariously cynical about the experience. ***** sessions rule the day. If you listened to a bunch of midshipmen describe life at the Naval Academy it would make you wonder why they don't all quit. Complaining about being a midshipman is part of being a midshipman, apparently.

One of my "Words of Wisdom" I imparted on my sons before they went off to the academy was to warn them - "Go ahead and ***** about life at the academy with your friends. But never allow that cynicism to define who you are. It should mostly be tongue-in-cheek or just venting. But if you really start believing how miserable life is - you'll start really being miserable."

Those same midshipmen who ***** about their life at the academy will defend their school with their last breath to any outsider who criticizes it ... much the same way as our own families work.
 
Memphis9489 said:
The Naval Academy experience is not defined by Plebe Summer. It's an impressionable part of it - but it is a small part of it.

You have to be able to see beyond Plebe Summer. You can't think that you are going to march around in dorky looking white works with a "dixie cup" on your head for your Naval career while somebody yells at you. A little foresight helps heal the wounds of Plebe Summer.

But, sadly, a parent can't do that for the Plebe. This is a mature realization he has to make on his own.

Remind him WHY he originally wanted to come there.

Ask him if he KNEW that Plebe Summer was supposed to be difficult.

Remind him that it is normal to think about quitting - but most never do.

Don't give him permission to quit. He'll be looking for it. Don't make it easy for him. He hasn't been there long enough to make an intelligent decision whether the Navy is right for him.

Nobody has ever graduated from the Naval Academy and said, "I'm sure sorry I ever did that."

In general, it's not a fun school. There are moments when it can be extremely fun ... but that would not be a fair, general characterization of it. And this is why so many grads say, "It's a good place to be from."

As I've said many times before: If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.
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I think we just found some common ground for Memphis and Mongo, their advice to blackhawkmom was almost identical! :shake:
 
Haha, Falconchic! I hope they are as excited about that as we are!

You can't think that you are going to march around in dorky looking white works with a "dixie cup" on your head for your Naval career while somebody yells at you.
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Unless of course you are an enlisted Seaman, Memphis! :yllol:
 
I have said before. Take a few PLEBES out for lunch or dinner during PPW in their brand new Summer Whites and let them start to talk among themselves. Your lonely PLEBE will tell you nothing. Get a few of them together and sit back and listen. The stories are hilarious. :thumb: Every PLEBE Summer is the worst but the stories are priceless. Alex Karras is hunting for someone!
 
I just received 3 letters from my son today. All written on different dates. He said that he is adjusting, but that he dislikes "rates". He even said that he got into trouble for not knowing his "rates". What are rates?
 
"rates" are the items they have to memorize, quotes, military ranks, chain of command, USNA and Navy mission, etc. Basically the items in "Reef Points" the blue book you see them reading all the time.
My son got in trouble for that too...not uncommon.
 
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