Plebe summer

[Whistle Pig]

Some. A precise answer is not available. But if there were none, they'd not mess with it. And if it were all, it'd not be known as "tango" as in "last."

blackhawkmom has provided what seems a candid picture of encouragement

On a disparate note of mailing stuff ... you might want to check on regular mailing rates vs. the one box/one price thing. After months of mailing those, we discovered they were no bargain from our geographic location. Worth a check.

And while I thought this moment might never come, I agree w/ Mongo. While Plebe summer may have multiple "meanings" and purposes, no matter what the Supe "says" in his motivational talk to cadre/detailers? It's ALL about Plebes, while coincidentally providing a hands-on internship for leadership training. At the risk of mixing metaphors or something like that ... "it takes 2 to tango!"

 

[Soylent]

And while I thought this moment might never come, I agree w/ Mongo. While Plebe summer may have multiple "meanings" and purposes, no matter what the Supe "says" in his motivational talk to cadre/detailers? It's ALL about Plebes, while coincidentally providing a hands-on internship for leadership training. At the risk of mixing metaphors or something like that ... "it takes 2 to tango!"

Agreed. The reason why being a detailer is a good training experience is because the plebes are the #1 priority. For a lot of people this is the first time that they aren't thinking about themselves, but rather the training and welfare of others.

 

[Whistle Pig]

Well said soylent.

And pondering my pondering, maybe the better adage might be ...

"It takes 2 to NOT 'tango!' "

 

[1964BGO]

Having been a detailer, albeit several decades ago, I can tell you that the focus of the program and the detailers is on the plebes. I don't recall sitting around with my fellow detailers and discussing what wonderful leadership training we were getting from the experience - at the time. BUT, I readily admit to having learned many lessons about dealing with people that I used in the service and in business, and even now in retirement. It was a great teacher of human nature and personnel management and leadership. As the academy literature used to say "... it is a great leadership laboratory..."

 

[2012mom?]

Wow. Could my earlier comment please be taken more out of context?

The point of post #31 was to answer summer1942's question about what would happen about the missed training evolutions of a Plebe who went to Tango and then decided not to leave. The main point of that post was to state that what happened would depend on circumstances, and that, in most cases, the loss of specific evolutions wouldn't matter.

No where did I ever suggest that the detailers would sit around thinking about anything other than the best way to train the Plebes. Not that the detailers have any time to sit around.

 

[Whistle Pig]

... And, keep in mind that, even though it's called "Plebe" summer, it's more about developing the Firsties as leaders than anything else. ...

As my ol' composition prof was wont to say, and I suspect while pertinent, not original ...

"Say what you mean. Mean what you say."

 

[usnabgo08]

Agreed. The reason why being a detailer is a good training experience is because the plebes are the #1 priority. For a lot of people this is the first time that they aren't thinking about themselves, but rather the training and welfare of others.

I certainly HOPE that this statement is but the truth. If by the time you are a 1/C, you haven't thought of the 3/C and 4/C and have not been involved in their training, academics, physical readiness, sports, etc., then you have NOT done your job as a MIDN.

The Commandant is ALL about RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY. I find it hard to believe that there hasn't been a time that a senior (IRT rank) MIDN could have been personally accountable and HELPED a junior MIDN.

If I was a Company Officer and a plebe had a "D" in an academic class at the end of the semester, not only would I be talking to the plebe, but I'd march the entire chain-of-command (Youngster to Company Commander) in and ask what they did to help the plebe -- if it is a silent room --- standby!

That is what the Commandant is talking about --- looking out for your people! The Squad Leader (and squad) would be at fault for allowing a situation to spiral out of control without taking any action.

 

[Soylent]

I certainly HOPE that this statement is but the truth. If by the time you are a 1/C, you haven't thought of the 3/C and 4/C and have not been involved in their training, academics, physical readiness, sports, etc., then you have NOT done your job as a MIDN.

The Commandant is ALL about RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY. I find it hard to believe that there hasn't been a time that a senior (IRT rank) MIDN could have been personally accountable and HELPED a junior MIDN.

If I was a Company Officer and a plebe had a "D" in an academic class at the end of the semester, not only would I be talking to the plebe, but I'd march the entire chain-of-command (Youngster to Company Commander) in and ask what they did to help the plebe -- if it is a silent room --- standby!

That is what the Commandant is talking about --- looking out for your people! The Squad Leader (and squad) would be at fault for allowing a situation to spiral out of control without taking any action.

It's the sad truth, but many people can and do skate by three years at the academy while not assuming much responsibility.

Regardless, helping a plebe/youngster get his grades up or other one-time deals is quite different from the responsibility of a plebe summer squad leader who is constantly keeping track of his/her people everyday for weeks straight.

 

[usnabgo08]

Regardless, helping a plebe/youngster get his grades up or other one-time deals is quite different from the responsibility of a plebe summer squad leader who is constantly keeping track of his/her people everyday for weeks straight.

Soylent, not tracking with you here. Can you explain how most things at the Academy are one time deals (especially grades, PRT, room inspections)? Shouldn't the chain of command ALWAYS be tracking/concerned about their people (15 weeks per semester vs. 3 weeks of plebe summer)? Additionally, I think you get more leadership benefit from dealing with different classes because you lead on different levels. The mechanisms you use for your plebes won't be the same that you use for the 3/C or 2/C. When you hit the Fleet or FMF, you will be dealing (as a leader) with troops at different paygrades --- your leadership style to a GySgt isn't going to be the same to the PFC.

I'd still argue that the best leadership opportunity at USNA is a Ac Year squad leader, assuming the job is done correctly (responsibility, accountability, concern). Without micro-managing (as practicable), true leaders set their people up for success. Plebe Summer, isn't really geared that way -- you are there to indoctrinate and lead-by-example -- not really to "take care" of your people as you will ultimately be responsible for.

ADDED: Now, don't let me decieve you in the fact that being a plebe summer cadre is REALLY IMPORTANT. You are molding/shaping the class to join the Brigade. How they act and perform is a direct reflection of the PS cadre.

 

[Soylent]

"Can you explain how most things at the Academy are one time deals (especially grades, PRT, room inspections)? Shouldn't the chain of command ALWAYS be tracking/concerned about their people (15 weeks per semester vs. 3 weeks of plebe summer)?"

Shouldn't they? Yes.

The fact still remains that during PS there is constant pressure to do your job correctly, and you must do that day-in, day-out. At the same time there is support on all levels to doing the job correctly. During the ac-year you're not devoting your entire day to your billet, and I would argue that the time spent concentrating on your billet during the ac-year vs. plebe summer is quite equal.

And this is still the first time that many firsties will have this amount of responsibility as I had originally stated. There are very few billets for 2/C, and depending on how the company or squad is run there may not be too many opportunities to take care of your folks as you have explained.

 

[usnabgo08]

The fact still remains that during PS there is constant pressure to do your job correctly, and you must do that day-in, day-out.

Why isn't there constant pressure to do the job correctly during the Ac Year? I completely agree that the current culture of USNA needs to change. Too many people try to "skate" by and not do anything their 2/C and 3/C year...part of both of our points.

During the ac-year you're not devoting your entire day to your billet, and I would argue that the time spent concentrating on your billet during the ac-year vs. plebe summer is quite equal.

Couldn't agree with you more. Part of leading is being able to delegate -- another reason why 2/C and 3/C should be familiar with their plebes (and 3/C). 1/C shouldn't be levying all the work. Gives an opportunity for 2/C and 3/C to develop some leadership skills (identify problems before they escalate and recommend appropriate actions to their squad leader).

There are very few billets for 2/C, and depending on how the company or squad is run there may not be too many opportunities to take care of your folks as you have explained.

This is why the culture needs to be changed! You don't need to have a billet (i.e. for 2/C, 3/C) to be able to take care of your people. All MIDN in a company are in some sort of chain of command, meaning that there is someone junior unless you are a 4/C. If there is a will, there is a way.

 

[billyb]

As a squad leader for plebe summer (at USMA) many moons ago, it was all about the plebes. However, along the way I learned alot about leadership. Decades after I still remember one of my plebes making his first call home and telling his parents that his squad leader (me) was a jerk because he (I) couldn't even pronounce his name correctly. In my defense, the last name was 10 letters long and very hard to say. From that moment on, I never forget the importance of someone's name and what it means. In translation I think it meant to him that I didn't care about him because I didn't even care enough to learn how to pronounce his name correctly.

This is a small example of how plebe summer does serve both purposes of training the leadership and the plebes.

One last note.... in my experience the best plebe squad leaders were prior service because they already had a larger framework of past military leaders they could learn from.