plebe year class ranking

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onWestCoastC02025

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Curious question on upper class ranking plebes:

DS was pretty upset when he saw his company ranking ( bottom) and was not sure what he could have done better. I have no experience in this, so not sure how to handle this issue. So just for my knowledge sake, what goes behind the ranking by upperclass?

DS did pretty well in academics ( mostly A or B+), helped some his peers in tutoring them in Math. He for sure needs to improve on his physical fitness. His statement is that it is very subjective and all depends upon your relation to your upperclass. But just could not grasp why would he be ranked so low. He did say that the person ranked 1 did not deserve to be ranked and someone else should have made that rank.


Any suggestions/guidance on this?
 
It is highly subjective, and at times perhaps unfair. I wouldn’t worry about it.
 
There are only a certain number of A and B grades available. You can be great academically, have no honor or conduct issues, no PRT problems, no Pro Know struggles, but still get a C. If it is still done “murder board” style, the upper class rank the plebes. If no firsties know your DS outside his squad, then even with strong advocacy by his chain of command, it takes others knowing who he is and being impressed to make him float to the top.

I coach our varsity athlete sponsor mids every year on this, given their amount of time out of company area. They have to make an effort to be seen and noticed and considered a contributing member in the company compared to peers.

Let your son consult his chain of command on how he can improve. It’s his to solve. This is not that different from the Fleet when officers are ranked in percentage groups, and there is a cap on each tier.

Let’s hope some of our current mids such as @Kierkegaard pop by to give Bancroft deckplate perspective.

And yes, it can be “political.”

There will be a change of leadership in the company when he returns. It could all reverse by next grading period.
 
Athletes often get the Cs, if they are gone from company area a lot at practice and road trips, make no effort to be around for company things, hang out at their locker room, don’t carry their weight in room maintenance. Can swing both ways.
 
Maybe. In DS’s first semester only varsity athletes received A’s in aptitude in his company. He asked his company CoC what he could do to get an A and they said, play a varsity sport. They took the recommendations from the teams to divee out grades and many of the varsity athletes were recommended to get A’s. That filled their plebe quota. In the big scheme of things, it doesn’t matter.
 
Aptitude grades and ranking are subjective and oftentimes political.

Your plebe should speak to his 2/C and squad leader (in that order) about his/her grade/rank. Squad leaders (and platoon commanders) are responsible for your MID’s aptitude rank. They go to the murder boards that rank everyone in the respective squad/platoon.

Your mid should also do some soul searching. A’s can be political. Being ranked at the bottom is not political. I have never seen a plebe get ranked on the bottom of the stack if they didn’t deserve it.

ders_dad said:
A=Athlete
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This depends on the company officer. Many athletes get the short end of the stick because they are never on deck. Varsity athletes have aptitude rankings and MDRs written within their teams for this reason.
 
Last year, DS said the plebe summer ranking in his company seemed to carry over to fall which then carried over to spring. Very few plebes moved more than 1 or 2 spots from ps regardless of effort or lack thereof. Covid obviously made interactions less common.
 
justme said:
Last year, DS said the plebe summer ranking in his company seemed to carry over to fall which then carried over to spring. Very few plebes moved more than 1 or 2 spots from ps regardless of effort or lack thereof. Covid obviously made interactions less common.
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The scramble was wonderful to change that.
 
New Dant changed it this year. As someone who was on their company staff this semester, I’ll explain how we did them. (It was supposed to be a standardized procedure across the Brigade.)

First everyone in the class in company is ranked by an algorithm that weighs several things. The two biggest are grades and PRT scores. Personally I hate this because it is redundant as those two things are already weighted heavily into order of merit and the military aptitude grade is in theory supposed to give credit for the qualitative things like effort, attitude, and professionalism. I just work here though…..

The formula also takes into account being on a team (more credit for varsity, then club, then none), conduct, and leadership billets for upperclass and proknow scores for plebes.

The ranking spit out by the computer is the baseline. Then the squad leaders and platoon commanders go through all their people and make recommendations for moving people up or down based on qualitative performance. They can’t advocate for everybody though as a third of the company as to get an A, a B, and a C. Recommendations are just that—reccomendations. The CO makes the decision. One man or woman is simply not going to know what all 150 mids in the company are up to so they may listen to what the midshipman chain of command says, or they may not and just stick with the algorithm, it’s really up to them.

I would guess your son’s ranking was low due to PRT and not being on a team. Since it’s all relative his classmates probably also got good grades. Also, a lot of midshipman have a pretty immature and narrow-minded view of physical fitness thinking it is the end-all be-all of a person’s character. I do think that mids who are the most athletic seem to have a “halo effect” and are considered the most adept in general, especially during plebe year. I guess that just comes with being in a competitive hypermasculine environment. I’d suggest he find a mentor or a buddy to work on setting and reaching physical fitness goals with next semester. And make sure his squad leader knows he’s working at it.

Also, some perspective—somebody has to be ranked last. I won’t sugarcoat it, there is a stigma that a lower ranking means you’re not doing well, and a C in aptitude will hurt his order of merit. But remember, in a sea of high performers like the Naval Academy someone is still going to be ranked last. Someone in an NBA game is scoring the least points. Someone at an olympic track meet is the slowest. Just the nature of competition, and everything in life is a competition now. But look, he endured one of the hardest first semesters at any college, and got great grades. There’s some stuff to improve on but I still say that’s a victory. You know what sailors and Marines call the lowest ranked member of the entire class after graduation? “Sir”.

(Or “Ma’am”. Though I don’t know if that particular glass ceiling has been shattered yet.)
 
Kierkegaard said:
New Dant changed it this year. As someone who was on their company staff this semester, I’ll explain how we did them. (It was supposed to be a standardized procedure across the Brigade.)

First everyone in the class in company is ranked by an algorithm that weighs several things. The two biggest are grades and PRT scores. Personally I hate this because it is redundant as those two things are already weighted heavily into order of merit and the military aptitude grade is in theory supposed to give credit for the qualitative things like effort, attitude, and professionalism. I just work here though…..

The formula also takes into account being on a team (more credit for varsity, then club, then none), conduct, and leadership billets for upperclass and proknow scores for plebes.

The ranking spit out by the computer is the baseline. Then the squad leaders and platoon commanders go through all their people and make recommendations for moving people up or down based on qualitative performance. They can’t advocate for everybody though as a third of the company as to get an A, a B, and a C. Recommendations are just that—reccomendations. The CO makes the decision. One man or woman is simply not going to know what all 150 mids in the company are up to so they may listen to what the midshipman chain of command says, or they may not and just stick with the algorithm, it’s really up to them.

I would guess your son’s ranking was low due to PRT and not being on a team. Since it’s all relative his classmates probably also got good grades. Also, a lot of midshipman have a pretty immature and narrow-minded view of physical fitness thinking it is the end-all be-all of a person’s character. I do think that mids who are the most athletic seem to have a “halo effect” and are considered the most adept in general, especially during plebe year. I guess that just comes with being in a competitive hypermasculine environment. I’d suggest he find a mentor or a buddy to work on setting and reaching physical fitness goals with next semester. And make sure his squad leader knows he’s working at it.

Also, some perspective—somebody has to be ranked last. I won’t sugarcoat it, there is a stigma that a lower ranking means you’re not doing well, and a C in aptitude will hurt his order of merit. But remember, in a sea of high performers like the Naval Academy someone is still going to be ranked last. Someone in an NBA game is scoring the least points. Someone at an olympic track meet is the slowest. Just the nature of competition, and everything in life is a competition now. But look, he endured one of the hardest first semesters at any college, and got great grades. There’s some stuff to improve on but I still say that’s a victory. You know what sailors and Marines call the lowest ranked member of the entire class after graduation? “Sir”.

(Or “Ma’am”. Though I don’t know if that particular glass ceiling has been shattered yet.)
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BZ.
 
Kierkegaard said:
New Dant changed it this year. As someone who was on their company staff this semester, I’ll explain how we did them. (It was supposed to be a standardized procedure across the Brigade.)

First everyone in the class in company is ranked by an algorithm that weighs several things. The two biggest are grades and PRT scores. Personally I hate this because it is redundant as those two things are already weighted heavily into order of merit and the military aptitude grade is in theory supposed to give credit for the qualitative things like effort, attitude, and professionalism. I just work here though…..

The formula also takes into account being on a team (more credit for varsity, then club, then none), conduct, and leadership billets for upperclass and proknow scores for plebes.

The ranking spit out by the computer is the baseline. Then the squad leaders and platoon commanders go through all their people and make recommendations for moving people up or down based on qualitative performance. They can’t advocate for everybody though as a third of the company as to get an A, a B, and a C. Recommendations are just that—reccomendations. The CO makes the decision. One man or woman is simply not going to know what all 150 mids in the company are up to so they may listen to what the midshipman chain of command says, or they may not and just stick with the algorithm, it’s really up to them.

I would guess your son’s ranking was low due to PRT and not being on a team. Since it’s all relative his classmates probably also got good grades. Also, a lot of midshipman have a pretty immature and narrow-minded view of physical fitness thinking it is the end-all be-all of a person’s character. I do think that mids who are the most athletic seem to have a “halo effect” and are considered the most adept in general, especially during plebe year. I guess that just comes with being in a competitive hypermasculine environment. I’d suggest he find a mentor or a buddy to work on setting and reaching physical fitness goals with next semester. And make sure his squad leader knows he’s working at it.

Also, some perspective—somebody has to be ranked last. I won’t sugarcoat it, there is a stigma that a lower ranking means you’re not doing well, and a C in aptitude will hurt his order of merit. But remember, in a sea of high performers like the Naval Academy someone is still going to be ranked last. Someone in an NBA game is scoring the least points. Someone at an olympic track meet is the slowest. Just the nature of competition, and everything in life is a competition now. But look, he endured one of the hardest first semesters at any college, and got great grades. There’s some stuff to improve on but I still say that’s a victory. You know what sailors and Marines call the lowest ranked member of the entire class after graduation? “Sir”.

(Or “Ma’am”. Though I don’t know if that particular glass ceiling has been shattered yet.)
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You nailed it. Great post.
 
Very similar to how the fleet does fitness reports. Someone has to be at the top, someone has to be at the bottom, limited number of people will get "competitive" reports, and the rest will have to work hard for another year. Different COs value different things, and you can either adjust, or stay the course and hope it's good enough.

One thing you should never do is get bitter about a ranking, get frustrated about how it's "unfair," or harbor resentment towards the people that "didn't deserve it." Not worth the time or energy and only ends up negatively impacting your own performance and ability to work as a team. Then you will actually earn that subpar ranking.

You might have a CO that really values physical fitness. That's their prerogative. What he could do is ask the upperclass directly (because they were present in the ranking boards) what he can do to improve next time, if it is unclear. They should be able to give some guidance, it shouldn't be a secret.

And agree with above. It doesn't matter that much in the long run. IIRC aptitude for commissioning was something like 10 or 20% of overall OOM. Overwhelming majority of OOM is still academic performance.
 
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A couple of notes I’m observing and that have been inherently wrong with the rankings, aptitude for commissioning system, and counseling. I agree with a lot of posters…someone is going to be the bottom and top.

-There needs to be some clear standards and guidance on how performance needs to be assessed (I know some were mentioned above and are somewhat to be factored in). Not one factor necessarily weighs heavier than another…but the same criteria to which officers are assessed and promoted to…”sustained superior performance” should be utilized. For example, there are some frequent observed “measurable” plebe events (to name a few) that could be used…boards (participation, team work, dedication), chow calls (participation, trend in performance, adversity, preparation), uniform wear, pro-knowledge (preparation for come arounds, test performance)…training sergeants and squad leadership can observe these events. For upperclass, how is your squad, platoon, company performing? Are standards being followed or is there constant correction? How did the squad do on zone inspections? Bravo room checks (was progress made throughout the semester)? What’s the billet’s job complexity, in balance with billet performance? There are so many leadership and performance items that can be assessed that reflect the same type of responsibility and accountability in the fleet…just takes some good guidance and commanders intent to relay this to company MIDN leadership…which needs to occur at the BEGINNING of each semester. Bottom line, performance should be measured based on accountability, responsibility, and authority. Company officer should set his or her expectation for the company commander…they shouldn’t be an automatic A…performance and leadership of the company will determine your ranking and grade.

-Likewise, midterm (or more frequent) counselings should focus on the above. If company leadership is addressing these deficiencies during the midterm counseling AND as they occur, with expectations that performance needs to improve…then there shouldn’t be any surprises come time for ranking and aptitude grades if those deficiencies don’t improve.

-I agree that academics and PRT should only factor in for the sense of time management and prioritization…whether someone got an A or B shouldn’t matter so much as it is already accounted for in the QPR calculations. Someone failing PRT or going to remedial; a very low QPR (D or F) or academic boards could be a performance concern in the sense of not being able to manage many different responsibilities and being accountable for them.

-Peer rankings should be 360 feedback, not factor into the rankings/aptitude…nowhere in the Navy do we currently use peer or subordinate rankings for performance assessment inputs.

The bottom line…in the past, rankings and aptitude grades seemed to be a popularity/visibility contest…with less focus on leadership and performance factors…seems like with good company officer leadership, he or she can help guide MIDN on how to properly assess performance and to have meaningful ranking board inputs.

I’ll get off the stage now.
 
Interesting seeing the comments from those at the Yard or that have valuable experience gained at the Yard. I know of one current MIDN who was #1 in his Company, had high grades and was on a Varsity team. 3C year, he was not #1 but did rank well. His 2C year he is not on a Varsity or Club team, has maxed the PRT since Summer Seminar, and was the PMO Sergeant, quite high grades, Honors Major and was ranked #5 in his new Company. He volunteers for extra leadership billets and assists without asking. Sometimes he takes a 4C or 3C who is struggling and mentors them on his own accord. Hope this helps a bit. Innovative and persistence seems to help. My experience in the corporate world with ranking systems is that they are never perfect. Suggest MIDN that wish to rank higher...develop a written plan and follow it-perhaps get advice from Firsties, SE and others.
 
onWestCoastC02025 said:
Curious question on upper class ranking plebes:

DS was pretty upset when he saw his company ranking ( bottom) and was not sure what he could have done better. I have no experience in this, so not sure how to handle this issue. So just for my knowledge sake, what goes behind the ranking by upperclass?

DS did pretty well in academics ( mostly A or B+), helped some his peers in tutoring them in Math. He for sure needs to improve on his physical fitness. His statement is that it is very subjective and all depends upon your relation to your upperclass. But just could not grasp why would he be ranked so low. He did say that the person ranked 1 did not deserve to be ranked and someone else should have made that rank.


Any suggestions/guidance on this?
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I am being caring and compassionate when I say this …. Your DS doesn’t need your help or anyone else here on the Forum to figure this out. He is smart enough to figure it out for himself …. I honestly don’t know what DDs ranking is, and I really don’t care.

She is doing a good job tending to the ribs on the grill outside as I write this … we share a circle of influence here at the house. As parents, our circle of influence shouldn’t intrude onto the Yard.

Be his cheerleader, say “Ok” a lot, and give him a big bear 🫂 hug.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
 
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Did you son have a MDR counseling with his squad leader this fall to discuss how his squad leader ranked him?

My squad leader sat down with everyone in the squad to have a progress check on goals we had set for ourselves earlier in the semester. He told me my score and explained why I was ranked that way based off of my strengths and weaknesses, and discussed ways to move forward and improve next semester. Because I am a plebe, we also had similar meetings with members of training staff.

We were never told exactly how we would be ranked, but they gave us a general idea of what areas would be weighted most heavily beforehand. Because this ranking does have some subjective factors, my class was able to see which soft skills were prized most by leadership based off of the people who were ranked at the top.
 
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