Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by The OC Josh, Jun 30, 2010.
Fox News Story C.J. Grisham's take along with school contact info
I suppose letting the STUDENTS lead the reciting was a concept a little over the Principal's head.
Mass., what a surprise.
Our school district's policy is that every classroom will have an American Flag and the Pledge will be recited every morning, although no one is required to participate. Everyone Does. I couldn't imagine it any other way.
I'd be happy with that.
I'd also add a moment of silent prayer or reflection. Don't wanna do it? Sit quietly while the others do.
We have a moment of silence each morning as well. We are very careful about prayer because our school district and my principal were involved in quite the lawsuit with the ACLU recently over prayer at school sponsored events.
That is wrong. You want to live in this great country then pledge allegiance to its flag. If not get out. I can understand ex-pats from other countries not pledging allegiance, but anyone living here permanantly should be required to do so or get the he!! out.
It boggles my mind how our country is getting destroyed by our own laws.
I agree. However, even if they're from another country, if they are going to live here, and esp. if they are citizens, how can it be wrong for them to pledge allegiance? I saw a good T-shirt the other day. It said "America... love it or leave it." How true...
Our local radio station which carries the football games broadcasts a prayer just prior to the game. It is amazing how many people now carry radios to the game and the volume they turn them to during pre-game announcing. ACLU hasn't figured that one out yet.
These are jokes right? Or did freedom of expression cease to be a hallmark of American values? Is it suddenly freedom of expression as long as you love everything about America and never saying anything bad? You've got to be kidding me.
So is it wrong for me to express my opinion?
No, it's perfectly okay for you to express your opinion. Stating that I think your opinion is stupid, misguided, and contrary to American principles does not actually constitute censorship.
Let's tone it down a notch here folks. You don't have to agree with each other- just avoid inflaming each other while you differ.
As a resident of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts- nothing here ceases to amaze me anymore. There are a few places in the state that seem to bend way over in the direction of not offending anyone. In this case in order to avoid any possible "pressure" on a student it seems like the Arlington school board willingly sanctions the restriction of individual expression by refusing to allow the voluntary participation in the Pledge of Allegiance.
Personally- I don't think that the "Pledge of Allegiance" means anything to most of the population. I distrust the rote memorizaton and repetition of "mantras" as I think they lose their significance for most people pretty rapidly. I don't think that reciting the pledge means any more to most teenagers than reciting the Nicene Creed means to most 14 year olds in church- it's just words unless you really are thinking about them and understand them. However, I do question the motivations of anyone who would argue tfor a ban on the opportunity to do so as the mere expression of that sentiment would make someone else "uncomfortable". That seems to be as much censorship in the opposite direction as Devil Dog's approach would be.
At our current school it is the same, the pledge is said and you can partake or not. It is even said at the graduation. Typically those that choose not to partake do so for religious reasons. Hard for an aetheist to say under One God, or for that fact a Buddhist or a Muslim, since their God is not called God.
At our last school in NC, there was no pledge, ironically 35% of the school were military dependents, BUT what I found more interesting was at graduation they had an invocation that ended with in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
I think it all comes down to what is socially acceptable for the demographics of that community.
Bruno, I agree with you. You have the option at some point or another to say I am 100% with this or I am not. My kids were all forced to learn the Nicene Creed, much earlier (8 for communion), it is up to them now to decide if they believe in that creed as adults. If they don't and they cannot support what they are asked to openly support, then there is a door and they can leave.
Am I the only one that finds this a little bit IRONIC, you want to use Freedom of Expression as a defense that is given to you as an AMERICAN, but you don't want to pledge your allegiance, support or faith to America. Isn't that called trying to have your cake and eat it too!
As a side note, it should not be shocking that this site takes offense by this action. There is a poem that goes through different things, but it's final stanza sums it all up
So if they take offense to this, maybe we should give them personal leeway and understand that it hurts them to see the people they are willing to die for ignore the simplistic request of acknowledging our country with a 30 second salute when others request that right.
Sorry, but to me I believe our schools have gone way too PC. That means everything! Gone are the days of Halloween parties, now there are Fall Festival parties. Gone are the days of Happy Holidays, to be replaced with Happy Winter. Gone are the days of Washington and Lincoln's Birthday, now we have President's Day. Looking at our primary schools, I sit in amazement, it seems that they bend over backwards to appease parents. The parents kvetch about academics slipping, yet want the quarterly 2 hour award ceremony. No lie, we went to awards night and they actually handed out the best DRIVER'S ED student award...are you kidding me?
I am not really wrapped up in this pledge situation as much as I am appalled at how we have gotten to a situation where every child must receive affirmation regardless. Maybe if we spent more time teaching them why the pledge was created they would get that our fore fathers faced great hardships and the world is not about blowing smoke up you bottom. Maybe then their generation will get the PC out of schools and back to true academics.
Actually, it wasn't a joke. I'm not saying you must love everything about America. There are things about it I don't like. Dislike what you want, but if you think enough of it to be a citizen and not go somewhere else, I think that you should have no problems pledging your allegiance to it and its flag. Do you have any idea how many people have given their lives for that flag?
This country has given incredible opportunities to everyone in it (even those here illegally). If you do not love this country, leave it. No joke.
For the record, I actually think it's a bad thing not to allow voluntary recitation. I have no problem saying it - I personally say it pretty regularly (although I happen to think my Oath of Office is much, much better written than the Pledge). The school's very obviously in the wrong.
That said, I have absolutely no problem with people living in the United States not pledging Allegiance. "Love it or leave it" is a sentiment that frankly, I find disgusting. It's not freedom of speech unless you don't like the United States, so get the hell out. There's no give and take - no we'll protect your rights as long as you swear allegiance. And that is a good thing.
While I have my own opinion about the flag, and the pledge of allegiance, I understand where Steve is coming from. The hardest thing I EVER had to do in my military career, when it came to "protecting and defending the constitution", was to defend a person's freedom of speech. And that might sound easy, but I didn't just swear to protect those rights for the people who thanked me for my service. I also swore to protect that right for the woman who came up to me and said that I had killed women and children in Iraq, and that I disgust her.
But agree or not, that is what makes our rights SO IMPORTANT and worth protecting. Protect a person's right to believe in their religion, or to believe in NO RELIGION AT ALL. Protect a person's right to own a gun for sport or self protection, and the person's right to not own a gun if they choose not to. Yes, it bothers me when a person doesn't exercise their right to vote, but that right entitles them also to NOT vote.
Freedom of speech is difficult to deal with. Some say that a person has the freedom to say or express ANYTHING THEY WANT, "As long as it doesn't directly affect another's person's rights - like maliciously yelling fire or slanderous remarks"; YET in the same breath, they want a person to HAVE TO SAY certain other things. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Freedom of speech, also means freedom to not say anything. All the freedoms in the bill of rights, which comprise the whole purpose of our declaration of independence with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, also means a person has the RIGHT to not exercise those individual rights. Again, you can't have it both ways.
As for the school case in question, a person's right should not me denied at the expense of another person's right. Not unless that right interfere with that person's freedoms. So, the pledge should definitely be allowed. Those who want to say it, can say it. Those who don't want to, don't have to. They can stand there respectfully for 10 seconds until it's completed. And if some students feel it is still offensive, then regular class can start, at say 08:00 and the pledge can begin then. For those who don't want to participate, they can stand outside of their classroom and the teacher can let them in at 08:01. There's definitely room for compromise.
But Steve is definitely correct on this. I didn't like it when that woman accused me of killing women and children. I came into the military shortly after the Vietnam war. Military personnel weren't the "Most Popular" like they were under President Regan and even to today. But I didn't take my oath just for "SOME" of the people. I took it for all of them. Whether they exercise their rights or not, or if they exercise their rights in a way that I don't agree with, is totally irrelevant. A right is NOT a right unless you give people a choice to exercise it. It's not a right if you MAKE them say it. Sorry, but that's how it is.
I'm not saying we ought to MAKE anyone say it. I just think it's wrong when people would be so far as to be offended by saying it or be offended by a school's practice of saying it.
And I don't believe that we should only protect the rights of those that do say it. I do, however, think there is a problem when people can't bring themselves to say it.
I send this from another country that I shall tell you a bit about.
It required an oath stating loyalty.
Citizens were required to announce a creed of patriotism.
It's Germany. This was 1939.
While I know some posts will start screaming at me for comparing USA to Nazi Germany, I'll give this to those who've read this far at least.
Patriotism, love of country, etc. does not come from saying a statement of allegiance or requiring it in a classroom. I agree, if they want to do it, let them. Don't ban it. But those who are stating that people should say it if they are a real citizen, or things like love america or get out -- honestly?
Love of country or values is represented in as many ways as there are people. Please be careful about these types of assumptions, they are insulting to many amazing people in our country who choose not to pledge or have chosen other avenues of love.
I'm not saying that those who say the pledge love the country, necessarily. I'm also not saying that if you don't say the pledge that you hate it, either. I am not saying that to prove you love the country, you need to say the pledge- as if that proves anything! I'm sure some terrorists have said it! I am not saying that people should say it if they are a real citizen. I am not saying that pledging allegiance is the only way to prove your love. I do believe that you should have at least some love for this amazing country for the amazing opportunities we have here. And if deep in yourself, you cannot bring yourself to love this great nation God has given us, I think maybe you should leave, go somewhere else for 6 months, as if you were not an American citizen, and see what life is elsewhere- get some perspective. See if America is not one of the best things that happened to you, and see if you do not owe it some love.
Separate names with a comma.