Presidential nomination?

[Christcorp]

Yes, there is a category called: Children Of Deceased Or Disabled Veterans. This category is where the case of my cousin's son would fall under. However, that is not what my aunt was speaking of, and of which I believe she is mistaken/wrong. I don't believe that ANYONE is authorized an appointment to any of the academies. They may be authorized a nomination, and the academy might bend over backwards for someone, but "Authorized", they are not.

e.g. Do you think if my cousin's son, once he's old enough, can apply to Westpoint with a 2.0 gpa, 18ACT, etc... and be "Authorized" an appointment. In other words, my aunt is believing it's an "AUTOMATIC" for her grandson. It is not. Everything we've discussed here is based on "Nominations". That is much different than an "Appointment".

And yes, you can use the word "Legacy" and split hairs between nominations and appointments, but all I'm saying, and that Pima seemed to be eluding to, is that the word can be misleading. That happens to be a major problem with a lot of parents of applicants/cadets and the applicants themselves. They consider the academy the same as a civilian college. Some parents think they still have legal rights of their child and all the things they could do with a civilian college is discussed, they think is the same at the academy. It's not. We all know that. However, there are plenty of people that will mistake the word legacy when used in reference to the academies. Yes, technically you're correct because the legacy is the nomination, not the appointment. But there's a lot of non-military related individuals who will associate the word legacy with: "I automatically get to go to the academy". Yes, semantics. But also easily mistaken by the layman.

 

[Mongo]

Yes, there is a category called: Children Of Deceased Or Disabled Veterans. This category is where the case of my cousin's son would fall under. However, that is not what my aunt was speaking of, and of which I believe she is mistaken/wrong. I don't believe that ANYONE is authorized an appointment to any of the academies. They may be authorized a nomination, and the academy might bend over backwards for someone, but "Authorized", they are not.

It and the MOH awards are as close to "authorized" as one can get. In neither case is the candidate nominated. Each Academy has a minimum qualification for appointment. So long as these candidates meet this minimum qualification and, in the case of the deceased or disabled, do not exceed 65 total at the academy, they will be appointed. I think you and your aunt have a case of deiffering semantics and your cousin's child should be afforded every academic opportunity to succeed.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Do you think if my cousin's son, once he's old enough, can apply to Westpoint with a 2.0 gpa, 18ACT, etc... and be "Authorized" an appointment. In other words, my aunt is believing it's an "AUTOMATIC" for her grandson. It is not. Everything we've discussed here is based on "Nominations". That is much different than an "Appointment".

Christcorps - of course he would have to be qualified. That is the law. If he was qualified in every way, he would be authorized an appointment (as long as the academy had fewer than 65). Furthermore, if he were on the cusp of qualification and had the ability to become qualified; I believe he would be offered a prep school slot. He would be given every opportunity to attend, if he desires.

And yes, you can use the word "Legacy" and split hairs between nominations and appointments, but all I'm saying, and that Pima seemed to be eluding to, is that the word can be misleading.

So now we have moved on from you and Pima disseminating incorrect information to 'semantics'. okay, I get it. win for you.

If you all want to get really technical -
There is no such thing as a Presidential "nomination". The law does not specify a Presidential "nomination" at all but simply states that there may be 100 appointed each year to the academy from children of armed service members who meet the specified criteria:
children of those servicemembers who are or died while retired and retired with pay
- children of active duty servicemembers who have already served at least 8 years
- children of retired reservists who have not yet turned 60 and hence, not yet receiving retiree pay


But we all - even the academies talk about a Presidential "nomination" as if.......
After all since all appointments are made by the President, it would be redundant for the President to nominate as well.

 

[Christcorp]

We are all in agreement. That isn't the problem. I was simply mentioning my aunt and her grandson, because she DOESN'T understand the academy, or military for that matter, the way we understand it. As far as she's concerned, her son died while on active duty, therefor (Probably by 3rd hand dis-information), she believes that her grandson is "Automatically" allowed to attend Westpoint. Automatic in the term of: "If he WANTS to go, he is automatically admitted". That it doesn't matter if qualifications are met or not. Hence, the misinformation.

And back on target here, that is also how "SOME" people, without a military/academy history, may interpret "Legacy" the same way a "Legacy" is described in a "traditional" college. Which MANY people/applicants consider the military academies; as being the same as "Tradition" colleges. Therefor, if a person in a civilian college is a "Legacy", and automatically allowed admittance, then a person who is a legacy to an academy, must ALSO be automatically allowed admittance.

Point is: We in this conversation have an understanding of the academy, congressional law, the application process, and the means of obtaining a nomination and eventual appointment. MOST new applicants and lurkers don't necessarily have this understanding. And certain words, that mean something different when relating to a civilian college/university, can be misinterpreted by a NOOB/Lurker when visiting this forum and applying said words to their understanding of the academies. Especially if they see the academy as being the same as a civilian college. And believe me, there are a lot of applicants and their parents who believe the academy may be academically and militarily a bit different than a civilian school, but that all other things are the same. Especially when it comes to the parent being able to call the academy requesting information such as grades, health questions, etc... They believe that they are still "LEGALLY" responsible for their son/daughter. When in fact, the cadet is now totally responsible for themselves, and the academy does not have to be accountable to any parent. Any information given to a parent, by the academy, is done at the sole discretion of the cadet. S/He has the final say so on who is allowed to know what.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

I was simply mentioning my aunt and her grandson, because she DOESN'T understand the academy, or military for that matter, the way we understand it. As far as she's concerned, her son died while on active duty, therefor (Probably by 3rd hand dis-information), she believes that her grandson is "Automatically" allowed to attend Westpoint. Automatic in the term of: "If he WANTS to go, he is automatically admitted". That it doesn't matter if qualifications are met or not. Hence, the misinformation.

She might understand it better than you. You told her he would get a Presidential Nomination and that is completely false. You passed on misinformation.

If she thinks an appointment will magically appear in the mail for him when he graduates from high school, then she is mistaken. He does have to apply and 'qualify' scholastically, physically and medically.

We in this conversation have an understanding of the academy, congressional law, the application process, and the means of obtaining a nomination and eventual appointment. MOST new applicants and lurkers don't necessarily have this understanding.

There is no "we" in this conversation. Both you and Pima passed on information that is blatanly untrue. Anyone with any knowledge of 'legacy' knows that it doesn't mean "automatic" - never has and never will. Plenty of Ivy legacies are denied admission to lots of colleges each year. It only means that you have a slight edge because of one of your parents.

 

[SamAca10]

There is no "we" in this conversation. Both you and Pima passed on information that is blatanly untrue. Anyone with any knowledge of 'legacy' knows that it doesn't mean "automatic" - never has and never will. Plenty of Ivy legacies are denied admission to lots of colleges each year. It only means that you have a slight edge because of one of your parents.

I don't think they passed on any misinformation JAM.

Basically, there are 3 categories where an applicant would be automatically granted a nomination if their parents served in the military:

1. Presidential

2. Children of Deceased or Disabled Veterans

3. Children of Military or Civilian Personnel In Missing Status

4. Children of Medal of Honor Recipients



From What I understood, PIMA and CC are saying that IF you qualify for one of these nominations, you are granted it. However, all of these categories except the MOH one have limitations on the amount of candidates who can gain appointments with them.

However, gaining a nomination does NOT mean that you will be given an Appointment to an SA. You have to be QUALIFIED as well. Surely there are candidates each year who secure the Primary Nomination from their MOC, but not found Qualifed, either Academically, Physically, or Medically, by the Academy Admissions Board.

Academy Equation?:

Qualified Applicant + Nomination + Essays/Interviews = Appointment.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

*Sigh* When is R-Day again???
Sam, you need to read their posts and my posts more carefully. I fully explained where both Pima and CC were incorrect. Start back at the beginning.

 

[Christcorp]

Sorry JAM, but now I know why I've stayed far away from you and the other portions of the forum. You have always and will always twist whatever anyone says to try and prove your point. I already acknowledged that a "Presidential" was not the correct nomination I mentioned to my aunt. But personally, it wouldn't have mattered if I mentioned the CORRECT nomination or not. That was NOT the point. The point was, that she felt her grandson was ENTITLED automatically to an appointment because his dad died on active duty. I simply pointed out that he was entitled to a NOMINATION, and NOT the appointment.

And the fact that my aunt, as well as Sam in the previous post, can see where such a thing could be misunderstood, doesn't mean it is never misunderstood, just because you say so.

You have a lot of good contributions to add, but you are a real ARGGG. It is time for me to go back to NOT responding to threads that you frequent. I prefer that people, especially noob's, don't get caught up in your confusion. Sorry, have a nice day.

 

[Mongo]

JAM,


The legacy thing is abrasive.

Sorry, but there is a difference between a legacy traditional university and military. My children went to no less than 8 schools during their public education(K-12)... I think they deserved that special nom for not having a traditional life. Our only child to attend 1 hs is our youngest, he will graduate in 12. Our DD who graduated two days ago went to 2 hs., our DS who graduated 2 yrs ago also attended 2 hs., we only moved 20 months ago. Neither had the option to remain, the AF forced us to move to another state. How many schools does the avg student without military parents go to? 3...Elementary, Middle, High. Military children on the most part move every 2-3 yrs, they are forced to start over and over again their entire life. Hard to be Jr Class President or Varsity Football team when you arrive in August. There are incredible pains that the family endures when orders come down and they are in hs. You can't even begin to imagine the tears and then the frustration working out with the new school their curriculum until you live it, let alone the re-working of their wgpa and class rank.

For many of us this is not a legacy thing. Many of us are STATIONED overseas or in another state during this time period. Worse yet, June-Aug is PCS time frames, thus we don't even know who our Congressman, ALO/MALO/BGO are until we have our household goods delivered, which could be only days before school starts in August. That is behind an 8 ball for SA purposes.

Sorry, but if you want to classify military as LEGACY like Harvard or any other college you are wrong. They deserve this little piece of bread thrown at them, these kids pay the highest toll for their parents sacrifice to this nation. They not only have school stress, peer pressure, but on top of that their parents can be deployed to war zones. Trust me it is in their mind as much as it is in the mind of the parent at home. Many of them become aware of the big bad world at a very young age, and to their honor, they are their ones that enlist or opt for the military.

The military does have legacy children...they exist in the enlisted and officer ranks. They are the children who opt to follow their parents footsteps by joining the forces. It is not legacy, it is honor IMHO.

Just got around to reading all these LEGACY posts. Again, not sure how the AFA and WP works, but, for USNA, all the things which Pima mentions above are captured in the WPS after the record has been before the board. RABs are added for moves, overseas assignments, etc etc alongside the original WPS points for being the son or daughter of a career military parent. Therefore, the Presidential nomination is just another little perk on top of this that allows them to compete in an extra, and most likely, less competitive category. In this vein, it is indeed a legacy similiar to that of civilian colleges. All in all, I don't think the comparison is incorrect, at all.

 

[Mongo]

Sorry JAM, but now I know why I've stayed far away from you and the other portions of the forum. You have always and will always twist whatever anyone says to try and prove your point. I already acknowledged that a "Presidential" was not the correct nomination I mentioned to my aunt. But personally, it wouldn't have mattered if I mentioned the CORRECT nomination or not. That was NOT the point. The point was, that she felt her grandson was ENTITLED automatically to an appointment because his dad died on active duty. I simply pointed out that he was entitled to a NOMINATION, and NOT the appointment.

It may not have been the point to you, but to those who read these forums, you conveyed that the son or daughter of an active duty deceased member was eligible for a Presidential nomination. If you corrected it before your last post, I did not see it.

Incidentially, the Secretary's selections are NOT considered nominations since they are automatic if the candidate is qualified.

The real question is, are you going to go back and tell grandma that she was kinda right in that an appointment is quaranteed if her grandson is qualified, to keep his nose to the grindstone, and that he should not pursue a Presidential nomination, in fact, he is ineligible for a Presidential nomination?

And the entire Legacy thing was just picking nits. A very valid concise description that conveys the intent of the Presidential nomination entirely. Utilizing proper examples correctly will probably contribute more to "lurker" and "newbie" understanding than quibbling over semantics. From your depiction whose wording you chose, the grandmother was correct and you were wrong.

 

[SamAca10]

It may not have been the point to you, but to those who read these forums, you conveyed that the son or daughter of an active duty deceased member was eligible for a Presidential nomination. If you corrected it before your last post, I did not see it.

Incidentially, the Secretary's selections are NOT considered nominations since they are automatic if the candidate is qualified.

The real question is, are you going to go back and tell grandma that she was kinda right in that an appointment is quaranteed if her grandson is qualified, to keep his nose to the grindstone, and that he should not pursue a Presidential nomination, in fact, he is ineligible for a Presidential nomination?

And the entire Legacy thing was just picking nits. A very valid concise description that conveys the intent of the Presidential nomination entirely. Utilizing proper examples correctly will probably contribute more to "lurker" and "newbie" understanding than quibbling over semantics. From your depiction whose wording you chose, the grandmother was correct and you were wrong.

Mongo you're misreading CC. He has been saying from the start that a Nomination is GUARANTEED because of his nephew's father passing. However, he must be qualified in order to receive the APPOINTMENT. A nom without qualification is a no-go, while qualification without a nom is also a no-go. You need both in order to get an appointment.

Like you said, if the nephew/grandson is qualified with a good GPA, CFA score, test scores, DoDMERB, etc., he has a really good chance of gaining the appointment, depending on how many other Nominee's there are in that category.

Just for clarification, Secretary Nominations are for people who are either active duty, in the reserves, or in the National Guard as an enlisted person, right?

 

[SamAca10]

Your number 2 and number 3 are one and the same. They are not separate categories

Thanks for the correction tpg

 

[SamAca10]

*Sigh* When is R-Day again???

R-Day is on the 28th. Why is it relevant?

Time seems to be passing by so fast!

 

[Bird85]

JAM is anxious for you to get started with your Coast Guard career, that's all.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

JAM is anxious for you to get started with your Coast Guard career, that's all.

Yep, that's it!!

Mike, I hope you feel better with that rant. I also hope you fully understand there is a clear distinction between the Presidential nomination and the other two categories of parentally earned service connected nominations. It's not clear that you do understand the nuances being so hung up on 'legacy'.

Just for clarification, Secretary Nominations are for people who are either active duty, in the reserves, or in the National Guard as an enlisted person, right?

Secretary Nominations ---
Here are the breakdowns:
Each YEAR the Academy may appoint -
85 nominated by the Sec from enlisted regular
85 nominated by the Sec from enlisted reserves
20 nominated from ROTC - both honor schools (JROTC) and ROTC (college)

From what I have heard over the years, the 85 from the enlisted regular service is not filled yearly at any Academy.
The 85 from reserves are normally filled from the Academy Prep schools. There are not enough for all the Prep candidates so it's important for them to also apply to their MOC's.
The 20 ROTC nominations include JROTC and college ROTC and include those who are sponsored by their academy at a military junior college (normally about 40 each year for West Point and AFA; fewer for Navy).

 

[Bird85]

JAM, what are the numbers for a Superintendant Appointment? I've heard 50 per class. How does the Supe pick? Thanks for all your info!

 

[Mongo]

what are the numbers for a Superintendant Appointment? I've heard 50 per class. How does the Supe pick? Thanks for all your info!

Every SA is different. Every Supt is different. Yes, there is a maximum of 50 per year. I have known Supts who told Admissions that any time they came to him seeking a nomination, that it was an indication of the failure of the system.

With that said, the one common usage would probably be highly qualified candidates who, through no fault of their own, were unable to obtain a nomination from a regular sorce since any regular MOC nomination will make one eligible for the national pool where the most qualified will be selected.

 

[kansas58506]

My mother joined the Army in 1986 and left on medical leave in '90-'91. She was called back to service in the reserves in 2005, and was deployed as active duty in 2006 and again in 2007. In 2007 she was injured while at pre-deployment training and was unable to go to the middle east with the rest of her Unit. She was then sent all around the mid west and eastern United States to serve as Active Duty.

She is currently in the process of a medical discharge.

What exactly are the requirements for dependent's of Reservists, as that is what she has been classified as pending her medical discharge?

 

[kansas58506]

Correction on the above post. She first left the Army in 1994.

 

[Mongo]

Work up a time line with actual dates different events occured, down to the day. Email it to your regional director. And then maybe apply real quickly before the medical discharge takes effect. Unless it is 100% and then you are golden.

My gut feeling is that between actual active duty and reserve points, you have enough to show 'career'. Get the RD involved though.