Race/Ethnicity and Admission

[aglages]

So they identify the historically underrepresented, for whatever reason, districts. The entire 'recruiting' effort for the past few years has been targeted to these districts where the effort has been to locate QUALIFIED candidates and get them interested. Pretty much the entire increase in diversity has been a result of this effort. Ingenious isn't it? The integrity of the admissions process has been maintained. Yet the goals of the CNO have also been achieved.

Substantiate the underlined portion of your post with some facts. How do you know whether the USNA has been successful in locating and recruiting QUALIFIED candidates? Has the USNA publicly released information concerning these QUALIFIED candidates to substantiate any of your points?

Actually many have been posted on both this and the "other" forum. I don't think I really need to continue to repeat myself, do I?

No need to continue to repeat yourself, just post some links to actual facts that substantiate your contentions. Not conjecture...fact.

Want to venture a guess why the USNA keeps the academic stats of it's URM mids such a secret if they are so proud of their even handed approach to admissions?

 

[aglages]

Got to love these race/admission threads. They seem to pop up every month or so and eventually end up exiled to the "Off Topic" area. Does anyone ever change their opinions on this subject?

 

[Just_A_Mom]

You need a link to substantiate the fact that there are noms other than congressional?
http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=13510
As has been pointed out when you add in the noms that are available from districts that do not have enough candidates, there are discretionary noms that can be used to increase URM enrollment.

Strange how Mongo just excuses his off the wall comments with "Google it" and cannot provide any links for substantiation. Did you want to ask him for substantiating links?

Want to venture a guess why the USNA keeps the academic stats of it's URM mids such a secret if they are so proud of their even handed approach to admissions?

Nope. You misread or misunderstood.
Read the LAW:

Qualified Alternates may be selected from:
150 selected by the Secretary of the Army in order of merit (prescribed pursuant to section 4343 of this title) from qualified alternates nominated by persons named in clauses (3) and (4) of subsection (a).

or
If the annual quota of cadets under subsection (b)(1), (2), (3) is not filled, the Secretary may fill the vacancies by nominating for appointment other candidates from any of these sources who were found best qualified on examination for admission and not otherwise nominated.

Every category save for children of those who were awarded the Medal of Honor and the 50 Supe nominations.

There is ONE more category - "to fill the class" and this is probably what you are talking about.
From the law:

If the annual quota of cadets under subsection (b)(1), (2), (3) is not filled, the Secretary may fill the vacancies by nominating for appointment other candidates from any of these sources who were found best qualified on examination for admission and not otherwise nominated

Since these appointments are an after thought - used to complete the class, I fail to see how they can be used to admit a significant number of minority (or any other class of) candidate.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Got to love these race/admission threads. They seem to pop up every month or so and eventually end up exiled to the "Off Topic" area. Does anyone ever change their opinions on this subject?

Ha Ha, no. Because most people form their own opinions before they are presented with facts. Human nature.

 

[Mongo]

No need to continue to repeat yourself, just post some links to actual facts that substantiate your contentions. Not conjecture...fact.

Want to venture a guess why the USNA keeps the academic stats of it's URM mids such a secret if they are so proud of their even handed approach to admissions?

Perhaps, since it is a concern of yours, you could post some links of fact to support your conjectures?

Again, I think it was posted on the forums recently, remarks by Admiral Fowler with graduation success rates. I think AAs were around 76% and Hispanics around 85% or so. The overall rate has been tracking around 80% lately. No secrets at all that I am aware of.

 

[Mongo]

there are discretionary noms that can be used to increase URM enrollment.

Incorrect. MOCs have a certain amount of discretion in granting nominations. Also, the Superintendent can pick any fifty that he chooses so long as they are minimally qualified. Sons and daughters of MOH recepients only are required to be minimally qualified. EVERY OTHER SINGLE APPOINTMENT made to the Academy is required by law to be based on order of merit ranking only. Both the Academy and the Board of Visitors have repeatedly stated that the Admissions Department is following both the letter and the intent of the law. "Discretionary" appointments are not an issue.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

MOCs have a certain amount of discretion in granting nominations

Actually MOC's can nominate whomever they please just so they meet the minimum requirements of age, citizenship, residence and maritial status.
There have been plenty of MOC's in the past (I can't comment on the present) who would refuse to admit a candidate based on race or gender.

 

[Farleigh85]

I didn't ignore it. If the entire increase in diversity over the past two years can be attributed to previously underrepresented districts, this negates the rumors that 'large chunk(s) of (lesser qualified) candidates other than congressional appointees are being admitted", does it not?

USNA Admissions has made a stellar recruiting effort in some areas that never before have received any attention. Give them the credit due.

Actually many have been posted on both this and the "other" forum. I don't think I really need to continue to repeat myself, do I?

You've offered absolutely no evidence that the entire increase in so-called ethnic or racial diversity is due solely to enhanced recruitment efforts within historically underrepresented districts. You've vaguley waved your hand in the general direction of vague statements made by USNA admissions officials. The very fact that the representations are so vague renders them suspect. A big part of the problem is that the admissions process is not transparent. If it were transparent, we could judge for ourselves. Instead, we are left with vague and incomplete explanations of how everything came about.

It is racism to arbitrarily favor one candidate over another for no other reason than self-identified ethnic background or racial characteristic. Justifying it by suggesting that it is benefiting a candidate whose ancestors may or may have not suffered unjust discrimination might make us feel better about ourselves because, after all, it is a "good" racism, doesn't change the fact that it is racism. And there is no good racism. Martin Luther King would be the first to agree.

We can do better. We must do better.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

If it were transparent, we could judge for ourselves.

Great idea. I think that going forward the Academies should post online every single candidates application in complete form. Then the general public can judge for themselves the credibility of each and every application. We could even set it up to vote. The candidates with the most votes win.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Great idea. I think that going forward the Academies should post online every single candidates application in complete form. Then the general public can judge for themselves the credibility of each and every application. We could even set it up to vote. The candidates with the most votes win.

Not a bad idea...it is after all the public who is paying for their education. Of course, we should all want transparency....isn't that what President Obama has been saying?

 

[aglages]

Nope. You misread or misunderstood.
Read the LAW:
or
..If the annual quota of cadets under subsection (b)(1), (2), (3) is not filled, the Secretary may fill the vacancies by nominating for appointment other candidates from any of these sources who were found best qualified on examination for admission and not otherwise nominated..

How are the best qualified determined? Who decides whether one candidate is more qualified than another and where they fit on the order of merit list? What role does race/ethnicity play in these evaluations? If the USNA can "adjust" a candidate's whole person score doesn't that allow them to determine where certain candidates will fit on the order of merit list?

 

[aglages]

Again, I think it was posted on the forums recently, remarks by Admiral Fowler with graduation success rates. I think AAs were around 76% and Hispanics around 85% or so. The overall rate has been tracking around 80% lately. No secrets at all that I am aware of.

Your facts are a quote by ADM Fowler? Not surprisingly, you are once again unable to provide an official source, government document or web sites that substantiates your opinions or "facts".

Let's be clear; there is absolutely no evidence that any of the following is true. Particularly the part relating to the "integrity of the admissions process has been maintained".

The entire 'recruiting' effort for the past few years has been targeted to these districts where the effort has been to locate QUALIFIED candidates and get them interested. Pretty much the entire increase in diversity has been a result of this effort. Ingenious isn't it? The integrity of the admissions process has been maintained.

 

[Luigi59]

Professor Fleming proved beyond all doubt that there is a two-tiered admissions system in place at USNA - one for URMs and one for everyone else.

And before the Fleming bashing begins - he has credibility - he has sat on the admissions board at USNA, he has taught there for decades, he has spoken and interviewed current and former Mids, and he teaches them and sees the results. He's there every day. You are not.

No one else, especially those here on an anonymous internet discussion forums - BGOs, grads, parents, etc - have ANY credibility that can even approach his. He has proved his case, period.

A 300 Math SAT URM will get a prep school appointment while a 300 Math SAT non-URM will not even get a candidate number. Proved by Fleming.

Continuing to debate is not going to change their system - they have been ordered by the CNO to make diversity the #1 priority - above everything else.

Therefore any means to accomplish this directive will be undertaken, even if it discriminates in reverse.

I wish Admiral Mike Miller the best of luck, he has inherited a hornet's nest under a microscope.

 

[aglages]

I wish Admiral Mike Miller the best of luck, he has inherited a hornet's nest under a microscope.

Agreed!

 

[MakeItHappen]

It is racism to arbitrarily favor one candidate over another for no other reason than self-identified ethnic background or racial characteristic. Justifying it by suggesting that it is benefiting a candidate whose ancestors may or may have not suffered unjust discrimination might make us feel better about ourselves because, after all, it is a "good" racism, doesn't change the fact that it is racism. And there is no good racism. Martin Luther King would be the first to agree.

We can do better. We must do better.

You are correct. It would have been great if there had been no need for MLK to exist. But, there was a need and the country continues to reap negatives from what we sowed many years ago. Demographics are changing rapidly in this land and many are very uncomfortable with the pace. Until we rid ourselves of the vestiges of the past, and truly understand history, we won't be able to do better, sadly.

However, I don't believe USNA admits one candidate over another based soley on ethnic or racial characteristics.

We can debate all day long on activities that add points to Whole Person Scores.

 

[MakeItHappen]

Professor Fleming proved beyond all doubt that there is a two-tiered admissions system in place at USNA - one for URMs and one for everyone else.

And before the Fleming bashing begins - he has credibility - he has sat on the admissions board at USNA, he has taught there for decades, he has spoken and interviewed current and former Mids, and he teaches them and sees the results. He's there every day. You are not.

No one else, especially those here on an anonymous internet discussion forums - BGOs, grads, parents, etc - have ANY credibility that can even approach his. He has proved his case, period.

A 300 Math SAT URM will get a prep school appointment while a 300 Math SAT non-URM will not even get a candidate number. Proved by Fleming.

Continuing to debate is not going to change their system - they have been ordered by the CNO to make diversity the #1 priority - above everything else.

Therefore any means to accomplish this directive will be undertaken, even if it discriminates in reverse.

I wish Admiral Mike Miller the best of luck, he has inherited a hornet's nest under a microscope.

Fleming has proven nothing. I've been through portions of his materials, and frankly, there's a lot of puffery. He may have some valid things to say, but it gets lost in his contradictory delivery.

I'll call BS on 300 SATs.

 

[Luigi59]

Fleming has proven nothing. I've been through portions of his materials, and frankly, there's a lot of puffery. He may have some valid things to say, but it gets lost in his contradictory delivery.

I'll call BS on 300 SATs.

His proof came via a FOIA request (and was fulfilled).

Here it is again, reprinted from CDR Salamander: http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2009/11/diversity-thursday_26.html#links

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let’s take the most recent data – the Class of 2013:

Overall % of SAT scores below 600 (verbal): 33.6%

This figure represents the entire class of 2013, all races, all genders, etc. Everyone.

Keep that 33.6% figure in mind because once we break it down between blacks and whites, the % figure for each race shouldn’t stray very far from that average of 33.6%.

Whites: Overall % of SAT scores below 600 (verbal): 25.7%

This figure is off the average by 7.9% . . . more than I would have expected. But, this figure could be deemed “reasonable” if the figure for blacks is off the average by a similar amount. Not that it would be, but it could be. Add that 7.9% to 33.6% and we come up with 41.5%. While it’s actually a stretch to take a 25.7% acceptance rate for one race and 41.5% acceptance rate for another race, the evaluation becomes irrelevant when we look at the actual data. (Side note: I believe this would-be notion falls apart quickly with actual statistical measures including standard deviation, etc.)

Blacks: Overall % of SAT scores below 600 (verbal): 70.7%

This figure is off the average by 37.1%!

There is no plausible explanation for this other than racial discrimination.

Proof: If you took the SAME data and switched the races, what would it look like?

Other-way-around view: 70.7% of whites get into USNA with a verbal SAT score below 600, while only 25.7% of blacks were admitted. Wow!

If it qualifies as discrimination for one race, then it qualifies as discrimination for ANY race.

If this ever occurred there would have already been a relentless storm of protests.

The SAT scores for math for the Class of 2013 display the Disparate Impact is even worse.

Overall % of SAT scores below 600 (math): 22.3%

Whites: Overall % of SAT scores below 600 (math): 14.4% That’s 7.9% off the average.

Blacks: Overall % of SAT scores below 600 (math): 71.7% That’s 49.4% off the average.

 

[usna1985]

Okay folks, I've let this go on because it is generally related to USNA and the admissions process. But, as some of you have already acknowledged, this thread is treading a very thin line between legitimate discussion of USNA admissions and personal views of affirmative action, diversity, etc.

For now, I'll let the discussion continue. However, the other mods and I will be watching it very carefully.

FAIR WARNING: if this starts to veer off topic (which, to remind everyone, was what effect, if any, race or ethnic origin has on the admissions process at USNA), deteriorate into mud-slinging and personal attacks (against other posters or individuals such as the Supe, Professors, or others), or includes similar conduct inappropriate for this forum, the thread will be shut down and, if necessary, infractions handed out. There will be NO additional warnings.

For those who want to discuss general issues of affirmative action, diversity in higher education, racial/ethnic issues in the military, or your personal feelings about the above, you know where to take it . . . the Off Topic Forum.

 

[Memphis9489]

??? Large chunk?? No. The only "chunk" I know of that is specifically addressed in the LAW is the Supe nomination. The Superintendent nomination allows for a maximum of 50 appointments each year. From what I hear this is mostly used by recruited athletes and not ever filled.
Even, if filled each year by minority candidates it's only 50/1350. Pretty small chunk.

A nominal incoming class is around 1300, plus or minus a few.

What percentage of them come directly as a result of the geographically mandated quotas? Only 50?

For every one MOC vacancy, 10 are nominated to fill it. And yet, it is not the least bit uncommon for several of those 10 nominees to get an appointment. Do you dispute that?

Once the required appointments are issued, the academy is free to pick through the field of other nominees without any geographic restrictions. I think that is many more than 50.

So, there is most certainly a "big chunk" admitted that has nothing to do with geographic restrictions.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

A nominal incoming class is around 1300, plus or minus a few.
okay. 50 out of 1300 is still only 4%

What percentage of them come directly as a result of the geographically mandated quotas? Only 50?
You have confused me. There are 435 US Reps and 100 US Senators. If every US Rep and Senator send one to the academy that would be 535 or 42% of the class.


For every one MOC vacancy, 10 are nominated to fill it. And yet, it is not the least bit uncommon for several of those 10 nominees to get an appointment. Do you dispute that? Not at all. Go back and re-read my post. They compete in the National pool by merit. This 'large chunk' is

Once the required appointments are issued, the academy is free to pick through the field of other nominees without any geographic restrictions. I think that is many more than 50.
But they must pick by merit.

So, there is most certainly a "big chunk" admitted that has nothing to do with geographic restrictions. Yep. But they are still picked by merit within their nomination class. There is a big chunk that get admitted each year as the child of a active duty or retired service member. Golly, that is not fair. That has nothing to do with merit at all - except within that 100. If only 100 applied and they were barely qualified they would get it.
I think we need to look at the SAT's of the Presidential nominees.

By far the largest "chunk" comes from MOC nominees. Next come the service selection nominees - 100 Presidentials, 85 active duty, 85 reserves, 20 ROTC. That is nearly 300 more appointments that are restricted to certain categories and selected by merit. Race can't be a factor here.

The only large 'chuck' of appointees that are not tied to any nomination restrictions, or competitive by merit are the Superintendent nominees. That total is 50, less than 4% of the incoming class.