Race/Ethnicity and Admission
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Why? Shouldn't future applicants educate themselves about a service academy before applying? When did not discussing something ever help?
Luigi59
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Luigi59
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Stop being so afraid of discussing race.
Although the candidate cannot do anything about his/her racial admissions category, a discussion of the relative merits of a two-tiered admissions policy is certainly a forum-worthy topic to discuss.
Until this country can discuss it (race) without an underlying shout of "RACIST!!!" when a disagreement comes, we will never move forward.
Just because someone disagrees with a policy that promotes a minority over a non minority (with race being the deciding factor) does not mean the person is racist or "anti-minority." Discrimination is discrimination no matter which race is being discriminated against.
A simple test is -- reverse the races in the discussion and see if you still agree with the actions/decisions/conclusions.
The class statistics are there for anyone to see, you are free to add your own interpretation of the data.
Just_A_Mom
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Okay, I will take that but..... far fewer USNA grads choose these fields than the 80% of WP males who are required to choose combat arms. So maybe not 50/50 but certainly higher than 20%. There are many more jobs open to females in the Navy than the Army.CurrentMid said:
Right now the acceptance rate for females at West Point is about 9% vs 13% for males.
Amen.
I don't think anyone can argue that the SATs are not racially, ethnically, economically, and gender biased.
I don't think that anyone who has ever served as an officer can argue that the officer corps should not reflect the enlisted force.
I don't think anyone can show any credible evidence whatsoever that USNA is failing to admit the best qualified applicant for each and every available appointment.
It is all nothing but blathering.
Memphis9489
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I don't really see much "blathering" in this thread. What I do see is a topic that makes people uncomfortable.
If a candidate asks, "I only did 4 pull-ups on my CFA, will this hurt my chances for admission?" ... that candidate would get a blizzard of comments and advice, and nobody would consider it "blather."
If a candidate asks, "My father is currently on active duty, he is a Navy Captain. Does that increase my chances of admission?" ... that would begin a lively thread that would probably branch out into other areas ... "Is your father an academy graduate?" ... etc. Nobody would consider this "blather" - would they?
There is a host of questions that can be discussed and, I guess, we could answer every question by saying, "Just put together the best package you can and let the chips fall where they may."
But what if somebody asks, "My great grandfather was from Cuba. He was 100% Cuban. But my mother married an Irishman. I definitely have some Hispanic blood but I don't look very Hispanic and my last name is O'Neil. What percentage of minority blood do you need to have to qualify as a minority? Would there be any advantage in checking the box that I'm part Hispanic? Does the Naval Academy attempt to verify such designations? Would I have to prove that I'm part Hispanic? I don't even speak Spanish."
You see - I think that is a very fair question (and concern) by a candidate. Such a question is probably precipitated by the fact that the Naval Academy has been getting a lot of press for being pro-minority biased - whether it's true or not, it's out there.
What would some of you BGO's think if you interviewed a freckle-faced, red-headed kid named "Timothy O'Neil" who has designated himself as "Hispanic"?
I don't get the impression that anybody is taking an anti-minority position in this thread -rather- what is under discussion is if there is truly an advantage in being a minority. Are minority acceptance rates higher? Are the standards lowered somewhat to increase their numbers? Some say - yes, some say - no. I don't know the answer. I only know what I've read. Maybe it is being misrepresented.
What I do know is that this is a legitimate question and would be very handy information for candidate Mr. Timothy O'Neil, wouldn't you think it?
Ironically, it seems that the original post was motivated by somebody who was probably wondering if they had an advantage in being a minority - not whether they were going to be discriminated against for being a non-minority.
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They are ALL rumors which, incidentially, USNA has repeatedly denied. Until you can produce one iota of real evidence to prove your point, it is nothing but blather.
Luigi59
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The data (evidence) was posted, but ignored.
Spin it however you wish, but you cannot get past the facts.
Denial of facts = blather.
Interesting that that the USNA has "repeatedly denied' these rumors but has been unwilling to put them to rest by simply releasing the racial admissions statistics. Wonder why the USNA considers it preferable to have the public and future applicants be concerned that the admissions process is biased as opposed to confirming the "integrity of the admissions process" by publicly releasing the statistics that would validate their denials. Must be a VERY good reason WHY the USNA is so secretive about these stats.
The class of 2013 entered with approximately 800 white midshipmen. Twenty five percent, or 200, scored lower than 600 on the verbal SAT. The same class entered with 125 black midshipmen. Approximately 70%, or a total of 88 midshipmen scored lower than 600 on the verbal SAT. What Fleming fails to realize, or at least take into account, is that these statistics include those who are entering from NAPS. And the prime reason for attending NAPS is low SAT scores. Very few, if any blacks at all, attending NAPS, will score greater than 600 on the SAT. There were less than 200 white midshipmen coming from NAPS and greater than 88 black midshipmen coming from the same. If one is to believe Fleming, there are approximately 110 or so of each. Therefore, not all direct entry white midshipmen could have been above 600 on the verbal SAT while it is likely that all, or at least a greater percentage, direct entry black midshipmen scored greater than 600. At best, or worst, depending on ones perspective, the differences are insignificant. And NAPS did what it was designed to do, prepare the 80 or so with sub par SATs for the Academy. A total non-story.
They have posted them. Repeatedly. You have just failed to recognize them.
For example, from the Class of 2013 profile:
As we all are highly aware, SATs are ethnically, racially, and economically biased. Admissions is now taking a more indepth analysis of the overall academic package. Florida, Texas, New York, and a few other states have abandoned SATs in favor of class standings. This is similiar to what USNA is doing, both at individual schools and with a racial group in general. WPS points cannot be granted indiscriminately. They must directly reflect the probablility of success for graduation and/or officer success. Therefore, if a top 6% of all college bound AA student has exactly the same probability of success at USNA as a white applicant with a 680/620 (just a theoritical example), it is perfectly propeer to grant them the same number of WPS points. This is what is being done.
The SATs are no longer being reported to the depth that they previously were since they are not being utilized to the extent that they were previously. Posting then would give false representation both ways.
And, incidentially, diversity does extend to the majority lesser economically advantaged candidate. You will note in the recent profiles, only 6% of the classes are first generation college. This is not representative of the sailors they are leading and is being addressed. Not too long ago, 2/3 were first generation. They could better relate with their troops.
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Perhaps because admission to the USNA is not based exclusively on statistics.
From the 2013 class summary, it appears that they're more selective for black and hispanic than for white (top 5%, 6%, and 11% respectively). I'm not disputing that the average SAT score for whites might be higher overall than for blacks and hispanics. That probably shows a bias with the test, one that, perhaps, the USNA has recognized and is adjusting for.
The key is to remember that goal of the USNA is to produce naval officers. Is there any evidence that once in the fleet, minority graduates are inferior to their white shipmates? If not, then the system must be working.
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What percentage of AA and Hispanic applicants were offered admission? We know that overall 9% of males and females were admitted. What were the percentages of URM admittances? Why would those numbers be secret?
Let me make sure I understand what you are saying here: If my son applies to the University of Florida or Florida State, along with all the SUNY colleges, he won't need to supply SAT scores to the admissions committees?
Also the USNA either doesn't require SAT/ACT scores any longer or no longer considers them important to the admissions decision?
I'm not sure how accurate this statement is. But let's agree to disagree (again) on this point and instead focus on how so many states and institutions such as the USNA are not using these tests for assessment purposes.
How do you know this to be a fact? Perhaps WPS points can be granted based on the #1 priority of the CNO? Do you have a link to a study the Navy has performed that indicates SAT scores are not relevant to predicting the chances of a Mid graduating or the success of an officer? How about a link to the study and subsequent points that a candidate receives because of his "probability of success'? Let me guess...it's a secret.
Apparently, USCGA is facing exactly the same obstacles as USNA:
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/09/ap-coast-guard-academy-diversity-090810/
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/09/ap-coast-guard-academy-diversity-090810/
Mongo exactly right. "CA" or CA59" won't get it! The USCGA and USNA have to do their best with mandated orders. He shoots at the wrong target and yet does not see that the same thing is required of USCGA. "CA" or "CA59" whole intention is to put a NEGATIVE Shadow over USNA. "CA" or "CA59" you have a recruiting question for you over on the other forum...
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Your kidding right? If you are not you are wrong when it comes to UT Austin.
http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/freshmen/admission/testing/
Living in the state, having kids in the system, and one applying this year this has never come up.
Many schools do not rank students. So now you add into the mix another value that is approximated by an admissions officer who quite frankly can score it how ever they feel. Especially when USNA does not look at GPA's.
What you are suggesting makes the process even more opaque.
Nope, including UT Austin. It makes the national news about once a year:
http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/04-22-05Fischer.htm
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