Ramifications of Plan B Schools - Ethics and Morality (UC Irvine)

Discussion in 'Service Academy Parents' started by Humey, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. Humey

    Humey Member

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    There are have several threads in previous months regarding people who send in a deposit to a civilian school while waiting for the academies to respond. I think they also do that in case the student gets ill or hurt before they can even attend the first day at their selected academy. People comment how its not ethical or moral to so and how it screws over the colleges.

    Lets look at it from other side, specifically with what at is going on with University of California Irvine. They sent out a group of acceptance letters earlier this year with about 500 accepting them. The school has now come out and took back these acceptances back claiming that either the students were late with scores or transcripts or first semester 12th grade grades werent good. As you know, everyone has to accept by May 1 or so. The school didnt realize their mistake prior to May but sometime in late July. I guess it took them 4 months to figure out someone was late with their transcripts. That means that all of these students are screwed as it is probably way too late to accept the offers from the other colleges. Here is my point, lots of people talked about the morality/ethics of making deposit on a civilian college while waiting for the academies to respond. Or even the issue with using it as an insurance in case something bad happens and the the student cant attend the academy at the last minute. The colleges only talk about morality and ethics when it benefits them. When the colleges screws up and there is talk that their is no screw up just that the University took in way to many students, morality flies out the window and what is is good for the college is good ethics. If you are going worry about something, worry about your children and their future, the college can worry about themselves. This really pisses me off because even if what UC Irvine is telling the truth, they shouldtnt be allowed to do so after the May 1 deadline. They are telling the students to appeal the college. Personally, I would be filing a lawsuit.
     
  2. MemberLG

    MemberLG 5-Year Member

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    Red herring argument. Your ethic or morality should be independent of what others do. Say everyone cheats on a test, that doesn't make your action of cheating different. It's still cheating. Everyone cheats and end up getting into a better college, except you because you didn't cheat is not fair. Unfairness doesn't justify unethical or immoral action.
     
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  3. Humey

    Humey Member

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    You are comparing apples and oranges. Cheating is always wrong. Putting a deposit is not morally or ethically wrong. We only think so because the colleges say that it is. If the colleges didnt complain it wouldnt be an issue. If the colleges didnt complain about cheating, it would still be wrong. The whole issue is hypocritical because colleges (most people and organizations also) do what is right for them. The system is setup so that colleges always win. If the student screws up or does something that could somehow hurt the college, then the student is wrong. If the college screws up well that is okay and it is morally and ethically okay that the student has no college to attend. It is like Vegas, the house always win.
     
  4. 1337BeachedWhale1337

    1337BeachedWhale1337 Member

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    Ok then make the deposit.
     
  5. Humey

    Humey Member

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    I will but you know that isnt the point. I am just pissed that college can screw over 500 kids and it is okay and yet at the same time people are questioning the morality of basically an insurance policy because the college might get upset
     
  6. 1337BeachedWhale1337

    1337BeachedWhale1337 Member

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    Isn't it kind of immoral to take some other kids spot at a school that you don't intend to attend and is just a back up? Because you made the deposit, they didn't have a spot for Kevin.
     
  7. VelveteenR

    VelveteenR Just gathering dust in the nursery...

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    Kevin is not hurt by anyone who chooses not to attend a school Kevin applied to. It is not a one-for-one equation. All schools admit more students than they can accommodate relying on the math of yield management to predict how many will actually matriculate to end up with the number of students they can accommodate; Kevin didn't even make the bloated list. Sometimes, colleges get this wrong and end up overenrolled (check out this topic on College Confidential for the very long list of colleges overenrolled this round; way more than just UC Irvine) and have to scrounge for space or look more closely at their rules for rescission. Again, Kevin is not hurt in an overenrolled situation because he did not make the initial cut, and the college is hoping more students find reasons not to attend.

    If Kevin was outright rejected by this school, the school didn't want him, and no no-show displaced him. If he is on a waitlist and a school finds itself underenrolled (highly unusual these days), he may have a second chance when the school goes to the list if it's a male of Kevin's profile they need.

    This same argument applies to the academies. Each year, someone will bemoan all the R-Day and Beast attritions as somehow affecting those who did not get an appointment. No R-Day or Beast attrition affected any non-appointee as the academy purposefully overenrolls expecting to lose a good chunk of those they did admit and not just in the early days, but all the way up to graduation to hit that target of roughly 1,000 newly commissioned officers each year. So, those 1,300 or so appointments handed out this year already accounted for (necessary) attrition. There was no single next-person-in-line who is hurt by this overenrollment/planned attrition model.
     
  8. Humey

    Humey Member

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    They have this thing called the waiting list. Those who qualifed but didnt make it because they ran out of room will go on it. The colleges also give out way more acceptances then spot because they know they know many wont accept. No one gets hurt in the end except the college who has to spend a little more time finishing up their paperwork
     
  9. jl123

    jl123 Member

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    Yield management addresses populations, not individuals. Populations suffer little adverse impact by abuse of the system, but individuals do. Some seem to fail to consider those that get hurt simply because they can not identify the specific individual (after all, if I don't know they got hurt, then they didn't).

    Perhaps it would clarify the situation to use the framework from which cadets are taught to evaluate ethics: "If you were in the other person's place would you feel taken advantage of by this action".
    • If you were on a wait list and found out that accepted students were double deposited, would you feel that action was acceptable? - it is not a one to one exchange, but when numerous individuals abuse the system, someone gets hurt.
    • If you were the high school college counselor of that double deposited student, would you feel compromised by that action?
    • If you were a future applicant to that college from that high school, would you feel it was OK for the student to put your application at risk?
    The justification for violating the rules agreed to when submitting the application seems to boil down to this: The academy will screw me, so that makes it OK for me to screw someone else.
     
  10. Humey

    Humey Member

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    I wasnt talking about the academy, I was talking about civilian colleges and Universities. Having said that, I have would have no ethical problem with double deposits. And honestly, I have no idea what world you live in. I understand that cadets are taught "If you were in the other person's place would you feel taken advantage of by this action". It is a nice sentiment and it would be great if anybody lived like that. I live in the real world and that doesnt happen in the business world, social world, political world, financial world and I am can guarantee you that it doesnt happen in the military world. And taking advantage is the nice stuff that happens compared to people who cheat, lie , steal and screw over other people.
     
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  11. jl123

    jl123 Member

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    When 1,300 show up on R Day, the academy would be thrilled to graduate all 1,300. USMA graduates account for only a portion of the number of commissioned officers each year.

    USMA admissions is much closer to a one to one replacement for offers turned down than civilian colleges, especially when dealing with MOC allocations - there is, in fact, a list of qualified applicants ranked by WCS scores. In many cases when one offer is declined an offer goes to the applicant with the next highest WCS score in a particular district or from the national pool.

    It is quite possible that when a new cadet walks out on R Day, there was a single next in line person.
     
  12. jl123

    jl123 Member

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    I know what world I live in, do you?
     
  13. AROTC-dad

    AROTC-dad Moderator

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    Humey and jl123....
    I am placing a warning to both of you now to ease up. Don't escalate this any further.
    It's okay to disagree but it must be respectful.
     
  14. Humey

    Humey Member

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    I wont add anything else to this discussion, but I honestly dont know what I said that was wrong or disrespectful. I am serious about this as I had no intention to make anyone mad. I read some of these discussions on this forum and people bring up ethics and morality that attributed to academies and I seriously dont understand how it relates to the real world. If i threw it out too harsh or made it sound like an attack, then I apologize to anyone who didnt like it
     
  15. MemberLG

    MemberLG 5-Year Member

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    There should be no differences between ethics and morality at academies or the real world. If you do something immoral or unethical at an academy, the worst thing that might happen is getting kicked out, but if you do something unethical or immoral in the military is getting someone killed. The consequence doesn't determine if an action is ethical or not, the action determines it.
     
  16. jl123

    jl123 Member

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    Humey, sorry if I snapped at you. I get ornery sometimes.
     
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  17. Humey

    Humey Member

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    Isn't that taking things to an extreme . Things are relative. Lying is a bad thing but it isn't stealing . We are talking about deposits. It's like comparing cutting in line to (which I hate) to getting drunk while flying an jet fighter . Both are unethical but there is a huge difference between the two
     
  18. Humey

    Humey Member

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    Not a problem. It is all good
     
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  19. MemberLG

    MemberLG 5-Year Member

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    I still recalled a lesson I learned at West Point - when make a decision faced with questionable choices, the question I should ask myself is not is this an honor violation, rather what is the right thing to do. Things might have changed, but when I was at West Point, regardless of small lie or big lie, any lie would have got you kicked out. Another way to look at it is if you are a parent are you going to tell you kid cutting in line is okay as it's not like getting drunk while flying a jet fighter?

    What is a deposit? It's only money or perhaps a token of your commitment/promise to that college.
     
  20. DesertCaliMom

    DesertCaliMom Member

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    Ages ago I worked at a notable youth organization and had to attend an intensive 2 week training period at the home office. In a perfect world, everything sounded great to enact back home! Pragmatically, I knew I was being told to do things differently for the financial bottom line. I consulted my advisor and mentioned the discepancy and I'll never forget his response - sometimes you have to decide between your ethics and your career.

    If you ever remember any wisdom an old hermit lady can share to a young person - get away from a job or school or command that puts you in that position. Your character is all you really have and you've got lots of years of living to do.

    My son has talked to UCI but won't commit with money, that's just not in our budget. UCI is his Plan E school, though. Plan B we may lay out a deposit...