Ramifications of Plan B Schools - Ethics and Morality (UC Irvine)

[Christcorp]

This is REAL SIMPLE. There are NO "Morals", "Ethics", or similar involved when it comes to applying to a university/college.

THIS IS BUSINESS!!! If you think applying to a university is ANYTHING BUT a "Business", then you are highly mistaken. The university does not exist because they "Love" your child and wants them to succeed in life. They exist, to "Make Money". Their "SERVICE" may be an admirable one; "Providing education", but it's STILL a service. Don't pay them, and I guarantee you they'll dis-enroll you. Even a state university or community college is in the "BUSINESS" of "Making Money".

I've gone to a store, put something on layaway; changed my mind and got my money refunded. I've put a down payment on car tires, found them cheaper at another location and got my down payment refunded. I've booked airline tickets and motel rooms, and had plans changed and canceled my reservation and got a refund. None of this is immoral or unethical. It's part of "Doing Business".

Again; education is important. But it's a "SERVICE". A service that you are buying. That service is a "Business". No different than buying car tires, getting a plumber to install a water heater, having someone paint your house, or any other service or product you buy.

If you think there is some moral superiority to a university, then you are naive and mistaken. It's a "BUSINESS". Plane and simple. Some universities have Non-Refundable deposits after a certain time frame. Some have rules that don't even require a deposit. Each one is, and can be different. So, whatever their rules are, you agree to when buying their service or putting a "Deposit" on their service. If you don't like their policies, find another "Service Provider" to spend your money on and to do "Business" with. There are approximately 5,000 public/private 4/2 year colleges/universities in the country. Do your "Business" with someone else. Just like you don't have to get a care tuned up at the dealership. You can go to hundreds of other businesses. Universities and education is a "BUSINESS/SERVICE". Morals and Ethics have nothing to do with them; except for "Legal" issues that all businesses have to abide by.

 

[Christcorp]

When 1,300 show up on R Day, the academy would be thrilled to graduate all 1,300.

NO, they WOULDN'T. Federal Statute states that USMA, USAFA, USNA can only COMMISSION 1000 per year. Anything over, they have to get a waiver for, AND, they have to adjust the following year to bring the number back down.

They appoint 1,200-1,300 because they KNOW from experience, that approximately 50-70 will quit during or after BCT; another 50 during the first year; another 50-75 by commitment time at the 2 year mark; and probably another 50-75 will quit or be kicked out before graduation.

What the academies would be THRILLED about; is appointing exactly 1,000 cadets and KNOW that ALL 1,000 would make it 4 years, graduate, and get commissioned. That would be ideal. But even with that, you have to realize that the military also DOES NOT WANT, all 1,000 commissioned officers to STAY in the military for 20+ years either.

 

[bruno]

This is REAL SIMPLE. There are NO "Morals", "Ethics", or similar involved when it comes to applying to a university/college.

THIS IS BUSINESS!!! If you think applying to a university is ANYTHING BUT a "Business", then you are highly mistaken. The university does not exist because they "Love" your child and wants them to succeed in life. They exist, to "Make Money". Their "SERVICE" may be an admirable one; "Providing education", but it's STILL a service. Don't pay them, and I guarantee you they'll dis-enroll you. Even a state university or community college is in the "BUSINESS" of "Making Money".

I've gone to a store, put something on layaway; changed my mind and got my money refunded. I've put a down payment on car tires, found them cheaper at another location and got my down payment refunded. I've booked airline tickets and motel rooms, and had plans changed and canceled my reservation and got a refund. None of this is immoral or unethical. It's part of "Doing Business".

Again; education is important. But it's a "SERVICE". A service that you are buying. That service is a "Business". No different than buying car tires, getting a plumber to install a water heater, having someone paint your house, or any other service or product you buy.

If you think there is some moral superiority to a university, then you are naive and mistaken. It's a "BUSINESS". Plane and simple. Some universities have Non-Refundable deposits after a certain time frame. Some have rules that don't even require a deposit. Each one is, and can be different. So, whatever their rules are, you agree to when buying their service or putting a "Deposit" on their service. If you don't like their policies, find another "Service Provider" to spend your money on and to do "Business" with. There are approximately 5,000 public/private 4/2 year colleges/universities in the country. Do your "Business" with someone else. Just like you don't have to get a care tuned up at the dealership. You can go to hundreds of other businesses. Universities and education is a "BUSINESS/SERVICE". Morals and Ethics have nothing to do with them; except for "Legal" issues that all businesses have to abide by.

Absolutely. This isn't a case of anyone lying. You are paying the deposit to retain your place in the incoming class to which you have been admitted. The definition of a deposit is that you are putting your money in their hands to dissuade you from changing your mind. However - you have the right to change your mind as long as you understand that you may or may not get your money back. How is that an ethical issue? Is it an ethical issue if you change jobs and move in the middle of a lease which obligates you to pay a penalty for early termination of that lease? No - it's just an expense you incurred when circumstances differed from what you first thought.
I wouldn't pay the deposit to a college I had no intention of going to- but I would if I weren't certain or confident of my first choice and wanted to preserve my options as long as possible. Relax -you aren't lying nor are you depriving anyone else.

 

[USMAROTCFamily]

For those of you who are fine with accepting an appointment to an academy while also submitting the enrollment deposit to accept your spot at the civilian college, would you also be okay with a student accepting appointments to 2 service academies and holding both spots until reporting day?

 

[jl123]

When 1,300 show up on R Day, the academy would be thrilled to graduate all 1,300.

NO, they WOULDN'T. Federal Statute states that USMA, USAFA, USNA can only COMMISSION 1000 per year. Anything over, they have to get a waiver for, AND, they have to adjust the following year to bring the number back down.

They appoint 1,200-1,300 because they KNOW from experience, that approximately 50-70 will quit during or after BCT; another 50 during the first year; another 50-75 by commitment time at the 2 year mark; and probably another 50-75 will quit or be kicked out before graduation.

What the academies would be THRILLED about; is appointing exactly 1,000 cadets and KNOW that ALL 1,000 would make it 4 years, graduate, and get commissioned. That would be ideal. But even with that, you have to realize that the military also DOES NOT WANT, all 1,000 commissioned officers to STAY in the military for 20+ years either.

Would you mind providing a reference for that Federal Statute?

Title 10 USC 4342 Cadets: appointment; numbers, territorial distribution is the statute that authorizes USMA to have a strength of 4,400 cadets. While lower attrition in existing classes may require USMA to provide fewer appointments to the next incoming class, the statute does not address a limit on the number of cadets that may be commissioned each year from USMA. Nor does it address adjusting the next year's class due to commissioning too many officers in a current class.

USMA class of 2010 graduated 1,031 and the class of 2011 graduated 1,043. Since the classes of 2012 and 2013 were already enrolled as yearlings and plebes respectively, the first class that could be adjusted was 2014. Yet that class had more appointments than any of the three preceding classes (1,375 vs 1,332, 1,338, and 1,324).

 

[jl123]

This is REAL SIMPLE. There are NO "Morals", "Ethics", or similar involved when it comes to applying to a university/college.

THIS IS BUSINESS!!! Universities and education is a "BUSINESS/SERVICE". Morals and Ethics have nothing to do with them;

Enlightening. Wish I had known that years ago.

In business school, I was required to take a course in business ethics. I think I'll request a prorated refund on my MBA for that course.

 

[parentalunit2]

USMAROTCFamily -

That is not at all the question that is being discussed. We are discussing the extremely unique situation of a student who is planning to attend an SA, where there is a very real possibility of physical injury during the summer training period that would preclude them from commencing the academic year in August. This exists nowhere else in higher education. Due to this extremely unique circumstance my personal view is that having a deposit elsewhere is perfectly OK. My opinion comes from over thirty years of being associated with SAs. I have simply seen too much over the years to have any other opinion on the matter. True, most candidates make it through the summer unscathed, but for the small minority of medical turn backs, are they really to have absolutely no plan in place for their education come fall semester? Don’t we teach our young officers to have contingency plans in place?

Just like to mention, I too received an A in Business Ethics!

 

[jl123]

USMAROTCFamily -
Due to this extremely unique circumstance my personal view is that having a deposit elsewhere is perfectly OK.

Just like to mention, I too received an A in Business Ethics!

You make a very good point. Morality and ethics are not black and white. There is often a gray area that requires thought and consideration based on unique circumstances.

I have no issue with someone who makes a deposit at a civilian college after careful deliberation of the consequences to other affected parties, consideration of the agreement with the college, and weighing the risks to the appointee. I purposely argue against doing so to hopefully avoid the post from a frantic parent faced with an angry college admissions officer who was unwittingly a participant in the Plan B. I still believe that the best course of action is to make a deposit at a college that agrees to be the Plan B.

Our ethics class was ungraded - they said they didn't want anyone to have to explain a low ethics grade in job interviews.

 

[Humey]

Things are relative. Lying is a bad thing but it isn't stealing . We are talking about deposits. It's like comparing cutting in line to (which I hate) to getting drunk while flying an jet fighter . Both are unethical but there is a huge difference between the two

I still recalled a lesson I learned at West Point - when make a decision faced with questionable choices, the question I should ask myself is not is this an honor violation, rather what is the right thing to do. Things might have changed, but when I was at West Point, regardless of small lie or big lie, any lie would have got you kicked out. Another way to look at it is if you are a parent are you going to tell you kid cutting in line is okay as it's not like getting drunk while flying a jet fighter?

What is a deposit? It's only money or perhaps a token of your commitment/promise to that college.

It isn't that cutting in line is okay compared to flying drunk , it is that since I still haven't found the perfect person , that if your only crime in life was cutting a line , I think you are doing okay . I have also taken Ethics classes in civilian colleges along with million of others who have taken it in the academies and the civilian schools and yet I don't see some sort of trend where people are now morally better because of it . As for West Point, I can appreciate people being kicked out for lying , I highly doubt that goes on in the military unless it is made up of saints

 

[jl123]

This isn't a case of anyone lying. You are paying the deposit to retain your place in the incoming class to which you have been admitted. The definition of a deposit is that you are putting your money in their hands to dissuade you from changing your mind. However - you have the right to change your mind as long as you understand that you may or may not get your money back. How is that an ethical issue?

The ethical issue is that it violates the agreement signed when the application was submitted (required by the majority of colleges) - that is what makes it different than other deposits.

Whether or not one decides that violating the agreement is justified based on the circumstances, it still requires ethical consideration.

 

[cb7893]

Whether or not one decides that violating the agreement is justified based on the circumstances, it still requires ethical consideration.

And nothing more...certainly not condemnation and comparison to violation of an SA's honor code of or lying on an SF 86.

That clause in the Common App agreement is akin to a non-compete clause in an employment contract. They rarely stand up in court unless the ex-employee is highly paid and/or in possession of the company's family jewels: client lists, proprietary processes, etc.

These admission departments are shameless in their stoking the flames of competition and anxiety, with their extreme blandishments of acceptances and their cloying best wishes to the denials. They operate on two numbers. The first is the rate of acceptance and the denominator is the number of applicants. What better way to harvest those applications than with the Common App. (The SA's are no angels in this department, given their definition of "applicant").The second, the Holy Grail, is yield: the percentage of acceptances who actually enroll; hence the clause in the Common App agreement.

 

[Wishful]

To me, Plan B is used when Plan A doesn't/can't work out. If you attend basic at an SA & realize it's not for you; you don't wish to stay at the SA, why can't you resign and attend your Plan B school? A cadet with a deposit has that option. Or should the cadet who realizes that the SA isn't for them be "punished" and made to attend a community college? (FYI: I graduated from one & don't view CC's that way.)

You have until the last day that the deposit entitles you to attend...how do you know for sure you won't be until then? Many will elect to stay at the SA, but not everyone. Also isn't it part of the agreement that if you don't attend (or request a refund by the allotted date), you lose your deposit? If you fulfill that part of the agreement, isn't the agreement concluded? The school keeps the $, the cadet is out the $, & does anyone doubt that there's an empty seat for the semester?

 

[parentalunit2]

I should be mentioning in each of my posts on this hot little topic that I certainly agree that the Plan B should be made aware that they are the Plan B. If the school agrees, there is no ethical problem whatsoever. If the school does not agree, move on to the Plan C school and see if they will work with you. I truly do not understand why people cannot see that medical turn back is a real thing that happens each and every summer. So is deciding to leave because one misses their girlfriend / boyfriend, dog, or Xbox, but that’s a whole ‘nother thread! Many of these young adults were accepted to Ivies as well as SAs. Are they really going to sit at home and play Xbox for a year instead of continuing their education because the family was too ‘ethical’ to have a Plan B in place? It may be difficult to hold onto scholarship money that they earned at a specific university, but at least they would have a seat in class that fall.

It happens people, it really does.

 

[Christcorp]

When ANY BUSINESS asks for a "Deposit", it is implied that there is a chance that the "Purchaser" may change their mind. If this was not implied or expected at all, then the "Seller/Service provider" would request total payment. In the case of a university, if changing your mind about attending a particular university wasn't an option, then the school wouldn't ask for a "Deposit". They would have you start the enrollment process, student aid, etc. and enroll in the school. A deposit IMPLIES there is the possibility of changing one's mind; for any number of reasons.

There is no agreement when you apply to a university that you WON'T apply at other schools or entertain other options. That would be like calling up the toyota dealer to schedule maintenance to be done and you change your mind and don't show up; and go to another repair shop instead. There's no ethical agreement that has been violated.

Now, a school has every right, KNOWING that you have the option of changing your mind in attending their school, to require a NON-REFUNDABLE Deposit. This TOO is "Not Un-Ethical". Simply good business practice. But no one is FORCED by legal contracts or agreements to use a particular service that YOU ARE PAYING FOR. You can put a deposit down at 10 different universities if you want to have a PLAN A-J. And you have NO Moral or Legal Obligation to let ANY of them know if they are "PLAN-A" or "PLAN-J". That's non of their business. You're simply shopping around.

Again; if the university wants....... they are totally within their rights as a business to have a "NO-REFUND" policy on deposits if that's what they want. That's totally up to them. And if you change you mind about going to that university, then you should not expect any type of a refund.

To think any other way, and to not see this as a business, is totally naive .

 

[Idlewild]

For those of you who are fine with accepting an appointment to an academy while also submitting the enrollment deposit to accept your spot at the civilian college, would you also be okay with a student accepting appointments to 2 service academies and holding both spots until reporting day?

No- wouldn't be the same, very different. Plus there isn't a deposit involved, only a full commitment for the academies.

 

[jl123]

For those of you who are fine with accepting an appointment to an academy while also submitting the enrollment deposit to accept your spot at the civilian college, would you also be okay with a student accepting appointments to 2 service academies and holding both spots until reporting day?

No- wouldn't be the same, very different. Plus there isn't a deposit involved, only a full commitment for the academies.

Actually it is quite similar, with the primary difference being that there is no agreement whatsoever that an appointee won't accept offers from multiple service academies.

Although the injury reason is largely removed from the equation, using the reasoning stated by others, if I decide it is in my best interest to accept appointments to two or three service academies, I should not consider any factors except my own needs. It's no big deal to the SA's because they plan for that sort of thing.

In fact, USMA does require a $2,000 deposit, but that is not pertinent. The material issue is being committed to more than one college after May 1 and having signed a statement agreeing to that policy.

 

[MemberLG]

All

The only thing I am trying to say is that the individual candidate needs to make the determination if making a deposit of Plan B school. Based on the this thread some, or just me, believe that putting a deposit to Plan B school is might be unethical. Check my postings, I didn't advise anyone to not to do it. As other things on this board, just because most folks don't see anything wrong with, doesn't make it right. At the same time, it could be right. My point is that the individual makes that determination based on whatever he or she believes in.

 

[Idlewild]

Having been through a medical DQ for our DD after the May 1 st date with a SA, I would never look at this issue the same way as I would have before. Until it happens to you or your child, it's just an opinion. We handled this in a way that was respectful of all involved, we had the full cooperation of the two schools (one a prominent state school that is very selective and a top tier private school that had offered generous scholarships and was willing to honor that $ if needed) that were just fine to be backup plans in case a waiver didn't come through. Thankfully, waiver was granted, DD is almost through the summer and we pray no backup needs to be used!

 

[jl123]

Having been through a medical DQ for our DD after the May 1 st date with a SA, I would never look at this issue the same way as I would have before. Until it happens to you or your child, it's just an opinion. We handled this in a way that was respectful of all involved, we had the full cooperation of the two schools (one a prominent state school that is very selective and a top tier private school that had offered generous scholarships and was willing to honor that $ if needed) that were just fine to be backup plans in case a waiver didn't come through. Thankfully, waiver was granted, DD is almost through the summer and we pray no backup needs to be used!

Should be home free by this time. Good luck.

Very few can offer that type of first hand insight. It is much easier to make judgments when it is someone else's child. It would be informative to hear from the parent in the previous thread on this topic whose child was caught double depositing without the knowledge of the Plan B school. I believe they had no idea colleges considered it improper and I wonder if they would take that chance again.

 

[Idlewild]

Having been through a medical DQ for our DD after the May 1 st date with a SA, I would never look at this issue the same way as I would have before. Until it happens to you or your child, it's just an opinion. We handled this in a way that was respectful of all involved, we had the full cooperation of the two schools (one a prominent state school that is very selective and a top tier private school that had offered generous scholarships and was willing to honor that $ if needed) that were just fine to be backup plans in case a waiver didn't come through. Thankfully, waiver was granted, DD is almost through the summer and we pray no backup needs to be used!

Should be home free by this time. Good luck.

Very few can offer that type of first hand insight. It is much easier to make judgments when it is someone else's child. It would be informative to hear from the parent in the previous thread on this topic whose child was caught double depositing without the knowledge of the Plan B school. I believe they had no idea colleges considered it improper and I wonder if they would take that chance again.

Swab summer is not secured as of yet- so not quite home free!