Rat riot

It seems things are changing by the hour. It looks as if this is as serious as it gets at VMI. Here are some snippits of emails from my DS yesterday and today:

Last night, 9:36 PM: "Our rat riot was insane. 40 people were sent to the Post Hospital, about 12 were sent to a real hospital a few miles away. People got punched, kicked, trampled, and it was just an overall brawl. A girl in Charlie Co. broke a rib after one of her sergeants threw her into the wall. It was nuts. We really don't know what's going to happen next."

Today, 12:27 PM: "Everyone is still in kind of a shock here. We apparently had the worst (best!) riot in 20 years. We put roughly 40 people in the post hospital, 12 in the E.R., we now have to march rat mass pts, we can only stay out until 12 instead of 1 am on Homecoming night and we have to be in gray blouse from 1600-taps. We also had a sweat party last night and we have another one tonight."

and finally 12:47 PM:

Dad,

"I'm not happy about the riot at all. Cadre overstepped their boundaries and the rumor here is that there may be more than a few lawsuits, which could end the ratline permanently. We also heard there may be some drumouts of both rats and upperclass. I did not participate in the planning of it at all, but one of my co-dykes did and now he is in trouble. We aren't even allowed to see our dykes anymore, so now they are angry because they have to put down their own hays."

I'm sure the dykes are angry about more that just that. If what my DS is hearing via VMI rumor central, the entire Rat Line is in jeopardy. We shall see.
 
my understanding is its an intense 30 min workout , im not sure if its done during the day but i constantantly hear of it being done at the end of the day right b4 lights out,, if i remember right you can search youtube and there are some vids there,, one perticular stands out in mem , rats doing pushups ,there were about six or eight rats in kinda star or circle patern with all there feet locked together doing push ups,, you've probably seen one arm push ups ,, in the configuration i just mentioned when they pushup there feet come up off the ground and no ones feet are touching, the only thing on the ground is there hands,, funny thing,, i just asked my son/rat saturday if he's done this yet and he said "not yet"
 
Bird85 said:
It seems things are changing by the hour. It looks as if this is as serious as it gets at VMI. Here are some snippits of emails from my DS yesterday and today:

Last night, 9:36 PM: "Our rat riot was insane. 40 people were sent to the Post Hospital, about 12 were sent to a real hospital a few miles away. People got punched, kicked, trampled, and it was just an overall brawl. A girl in Charlie Co. broke a rib after one of her sergeants threw her into the wall. It was nuts. We really don't know what's going to happen next."

Today, 12:27 PM: "Everyone is still in kind of a shock here. We apparently had the worst (best!) riot in 20 years. We put roughly 40 people in the post hospital, 12 in the E.R., we now have to march rat mass pts, we can only stay out until 12 instead of 1 am on Homecoming night and we have to be in gray blouse from 1600-taps. We also had a sweat party last night and we have another one tonight."

and finally 12:47 PM:

Dad,

"I'm not happy about the riot at all. Cadre overstepped their boundaries and the rumor here is that there may be more than a few lawsuits, which could end the ratline permanently. We also heard there may be some drumouts of both rats and upperclass. I did not participate in the planning of it at all, but one of my co-dykes did and now he is in trouble. We aren't even allowed to see our dykes anymore, so now they are angry because they have to put down their own hays."

I'm sure the dykes are angry about more that just that. If what my DS is hearing via VMI rumor central, the entire Rat Line is in jeopardy. We shall see.
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I don't know where the "worst in 20 years" comes from. Sounds arbitrary. I'm not sure that VMI keeps an historical account of Rat Riots. They might, but I doubt it. My guess is that was an off-hand remark of a faculty/staff officer who had been there for a while and voila, the worst riot in two decades.

Appropriate punishments will be doled out.

The Ratline isn't going to end. I've heard that one a million times before.

Bruno's and RVM's points on "stoop poop" should be considered here.
 
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Bird I can see exactly were your son is coming from when he says cadre is overstepping there boundries,, Saturday morn there was a rat in a hurry,, he was just to the corner of jackson arch ,, he was close to running wich he shouldnt have been doing when an upper ran up infront of him an put his arm out and nailed this rat right in the chest just below the chin,, he damn near closelined this kid, now keep in mind this was infront of 10 or so parents that this was done ,, now ive done a search, and read the CADRE an RDC training material thats available on the net,,, to my understanding there supposed to keep 6in of space between them... so my point is,, if this is done in plain view of parents,, whats going on behind closed doors and how much are they going to push the rats, b4 the rat mass pushes back ,,like they say "you can only poke a cornered dog so many times,, b4 that dog bites you" and thats what sounds like what happened here,, the cadre and rdc got BIT ,,
one other thing im sensing is that there is alot of tension between the 3rds and the rats

Footnote just in...Mine just confirmed what yours told you
the punishment was rat mass penalty tour,
an hour taken away from homecoming,
no dyke privleges
and have to wear gray blouse after 4/1600 til taps.
 
sprog said:
I don't know where the "worst in 20 years" comes from. Sounds arbitrary. I'm not sure that VMI keeps an historical account of Rat Riots. They might, but I doubt it. My guess is that was an off-hand remark of a faculty/staff officer who had been there for a while and voila, the worst riot in two decades.

Appropriate punishments will be doled out.

The Ratline isn't going to end. I've heard that one a million times before.

Bruno's and RVM's points on "stoop poop" should be considered here.
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Granted, it absolutely is an arbitrary comment, but it is being circulated amongst the corps. I also agree the Rat Line won't end, but I bet changes are coming. You may have heard it a million times before when you were a cadet, but you also didn't have 52 people require treatment/hospitalization after a Rat Riot either. I'm very interested in how the Administration is going to handle the situation.
 
Bird85 said:
Granted, it absolutely is an arbitrary comment, but it is being circulated amongst the corps. I also agree the Rat Line won't end, but I bet changes are coming. You may have heard it a million times before when you were a cadet, but you also didn't have 52 people require treatment/hospitalization after a Rat Riot either. I'm very interested in how the Administration is going to handle the situation.
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New information is dribbling out. Seems that the riot was organized via a group on facebook. The RDC got into that group and got a ton of documentation of who organized it. Lots of stuff hitting the fan right now, and it may include upper classmen. Ratmass gets a sweatparty tonight and PTs Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday. At least a couple of Number 1s have been handed out.
 
JoeNJ said:
Bird I can see exactly were your son is coming from when he says cadre is overstepping there boundries,, Saturday morn there was a rat in a hurry,, he was just to the corner of jackson arch ,, he was close to running wich he shouldnt have been doing when an upper ran up infront of him an put his arm out and nailed this rat right in the chest just below the chin,, he damn near closelined this kid, now keep in mind this was infront of 10 or so parents that this was done ,, now ive done a search, and read the CADRE an RDC training material thats available on the net,,, to my understanding there supposed to keep 6in of space between them... so my point is,, if this is done in plain view of parents,, whats going on behind closed doors and how much are they going to push the rats, b4 the rat mass pushes back ,,like they say "you can only poke a cornered dog so many times,, b4 that dog bites you" and thats what sounds like what happened here,, the cadre and rdc got BIT ,,
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First, please let me be clear: I am not questioning what you saw. On occasion I saw stuff like that, too, albeit not as serious as what you mentioned. But as someone who helped oversee the Ratline for two years, I must question your conclusion that if they do this in front of parents, they must be doing even worse stuff in private.

I really like the way sprog put it, so please allow me to quote part of what he said here:

sprog said:
VMI is a unique school, and it has a strong reputation. It is dangerous, however, to have an expection of the place that is unrealistic. It's a great school, but that doesn't mean it won't have a problem every now and then. In that regard, it's like every college in the US (Service Academies and Ivy League schools included). [...] As with any group that size, there are bound to be a few who overstep their bounds. Given that you have a situation where there are 19-21-year-olds with a little bit of authority over others, it isn't outside of the realm of possibility that some dimwit is going to go too far.
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Just because one dimwit goes too far in front of parents doesn't mean the Corps is full of dimwits.

Now, I did get a bit of an update from one of my rats. Just to clarify the terminology, when I refer to "my rats", I'm referring to current First Classmen who I mentored when I was a First. I shot a few of my rats a message asking for a bit of perspective, since almost all of our stoop poop on these forums came from current rats. As First Classmen, they've been around long enough to be able to see through stoop poop to what the real issues are.

First, apparently it was one of my grandrats who (supposedly) had a broken rib, but she's fine. Nothing broken. And her dyke really did break a rib after separating the cartilage from the bone in order to set a new personal record in the javelin during a track meet her rat year. What can I say? We're a tough dykeline... :biggrin:

There was another rat who got a pretty serious concussion. She was trying to get away from the chaos, recognized one of her Cadre members, and asked him for help. When he went to help her get away from the brawl, another cadet reached around him and punched her. This matter is out of cadet hands and is being handled by the Inspector General. From what I can tell, the Cadre member who was trying to help her get away from the brawl has done everything right. Since it was (apparently) blatant malicious intent, I'd be astounded to find out the kid who threw the punch doesn't get dismissed.

However, we still have to allow the system time to work. Everything I just said is still second or third hand.

The fact that an incident like this occurs does not say nearly as much about the quality of an institution as how the leadership responds to it. From what I can tell, the system seems to be working.

Thanks,
-jmb-
 
There was another rat who got a pretty serious concussion. She was trying to get away from the chaos, recognized one of her Cadre members, and asked him for help. "When he went to help her get away from the brawl, another cadet reached around him and punched her. This matter is out of cadet hands and is being handled by the Inspector General. From what I can tell, the Cadre member who was trying to help her get away from the brawl has done everything right. Since it was (apparently) blatant malicious intent, I'd be astounded to find out the kid who threw the punch doesn't get dismissed."

I don't know what VMI's policy is, but that sort of intentional assault is clearly criminal, especially where it results in a serious injury (a serious concussion qualifies), Does VMI refer these sort of incidents to the State Attorneys' office for prosecution?
 
pennak said:
I don't know what VMI's policy is, but that sort of intentional assault is clearly criminal, especially where it results in a serious injury (a serious concussion qualifies), Does VMI refer these sort of incidents to the State Attorneys' office for prosecution?
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The VMI Administration does not shy away from calling the Commonwealth Attorney for consultation. If the Commonwealth Attorney states that there's sufficient evidence to bring the case to court, the Institute hands the matter over to the police. This typically ends up with the cadet in question being escorted off-Post in handcuffs after being informed that he/she has been suspended pending the outcome of the court proceedings. I'm sure they would be allowed to apply for readmission if the charges were dropped, but I've never heard of a situation where the Commonwealth Attorney determined there was sufficient evidence to press charges against a cadet, just to have the charges dropped or the (suspended) cadet found not guilty.

It's hard to say from here what will be done. Again, all of this is at least second or third hand information. It needs to be taken exactly for what it is, even though it comes from a (relatively) reliable source. Having worked very closely with those who investigate issues like this at VMI, I am very confident that the reality of the situation will come out in the investigation.

Thanks,
-jmb-
 
Parents' Council Info

Information I've received from the Parents' Council (excerpted):

The Commandant's Staff got wind of the Rats' plan to throw the Thirds' hays into the courtyard, and in an attempt to keep the situation under control, sent Cadre to stand at the stairwells of the third stoop to block the Rats' access. Groups of "energetic Rats" persisted in their attempts to get to the third stoop, and fighting broke out. Several students received cuts and bruises (both Cadre and Rats), a few went to the Post hospital, and one female student received a concussion. No broken bones or more serious injuries (than the aforementioned) were reported.

Investigations are underway,and more details will follow as they become available.
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If any parent feels the need for further reassurance, they are encouraged to contact Col. Bill Grace (Inspector General of VMI), or Tom & Karen Johnson (Co-Presidents of the Parents' Council.) You can find their contact information on their respective pages on the VMI website.

HMQ
 
I agreed--I am confident that it will be handled appropriately and if stronger reprecussions are warranted, it will be dealt with. If I had any misgivings about VMI and the 'systems' in place, my DS would not be there. :thumb:
 
"Having worked very closely with those who investigate issues like this at VMI, I am very confident that the reality of the situation will come out in the investigation."

I'm sure you're right. I hope that the rats and cadre have learned valuable lessons here. My DS says that they have. Let's hope so
 
RahVaMil2009 said:
First, please let me be clear: I am not questioning what you saw. On occasion I saw stuff like that, too, albeit not as serious as what you mentioned. But as someone who helped oversee the Ratline for two years, I must question your conclusion that if they do this in front of parents, they must be doing even worse stuff in private.

I really like the way sprog put it, so please allow me to quote part of what he said here:



Just because one dimwit goes too far in front of parents doesn't mean the Corps is full of dimwits.

Now, I did get a bit of an update from one of my rats. Just to clarify the terminology, when I refer to "my rats", I'm referring to current First Classmen who I mentored when I was a First. I shot a few of my rats a message asking for a bit of perspective, since almost all of our stoop poop on these forums came from current rats. As First Classmen, they've been around long enough to be able to see through stoop poop to what the real issues are.

First, apparently it was one of my grandrats who (supposedly) had a broken rib, but she's fine. Nothing broken.

There was another rat who got a pretty serious concussion. She was trying to get away from the chaos, recognized one of her Cadre members, and asked him for help. When he went to help her get away from the brawl, another cadet reached around him and punched her. This matter is out of cadet hands and is being handled by the Inspector General. From what I can tell, the Cadre member who was trying to help her get away from the brawl has done everything right. Since it was (apparently) blatant malicious intent, I'd be astounded to find out the kid who threw the punch doesn't get dismissed.

However, we still have to allow the system time to work. Everything I just said is still second or third hand.

The fact that an incident like this occurs does not say nearly as much about the quality of an institution as how the leadership responds to it. From what I can tell, the system seems to be working.

Thanks,
-jmb-
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Thanks for the POST RVM. What is truly frustrating about the internet (including this forum )is that People often post first with NO real confirmation of what reality is and without reflecting on the possibility that they don't have the whole story, nor have they considered the possibility that corrective actions are being pursued. Folks need to take a deep breath- perhaps not post until you know what's going on as opposed to breathlessly posting as soon as you get some new hot off the internet "information"; and see what actually comes out and how it is handled before you draw "Conclusions".
Whatever happened with the Rats and their RatRiot (and for the record - this wasn't a "tradition" when I was there and it's a stupid one if it's really a tradition now,) there will be consequences to them and the upper classmen who may have been involved. In the meantime- why don't those of you posting on this give it a rest until you really do know what went on and who and what's happening? As Jackie has pointed out- The broken rib wasn't broken- (despite the rumor mill which just shows you that the stoop poop usually gets much of it wrong ), and the IG and Commandant's staff are handling it.

Stupid things happen at all of these schools- ALL OF THEM (Whether they are run by the DOD, the DHS or the States). As far as I've seen they will get appropriately dealt with.
 
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Let me clarify, First I do not even remotely consider the corps full of dimwits ,, and I do not even consider this a serious offense. nor did I mean to indite the rdc, cadres or corps as a whole.
But mearly wanted to point out, that if someone is aware of or should be aware of there suroundings and disregards standards in a public venue. Than what is that person capable of in a private venue. When the highest standards for ones actions is the public venue. Not to mention on top of that were talking about parents weekend here,, which in itself should highten ones sense of awareness of suroundings,,,talk about a nitwit,,but this is why they're there,,, to make mistakes and learn from then,,,

Like you said and I totaly agree with "Just because one dimwit goes too far in front of parents doesn't mean the Corps is full of dimwits." ,,,
 
What is truly frustrating about the internet (including this forum )is that People often post first with NO real confirmation of what reality is and without reflecting on the possibility that they don't have the whole story, nor have they considered the possibility that corrective actions are being pursued. Folks need to take a deep breath- perhaps not post until you know what's going on as opposed to breathlessly posting as soon as you get some new hot off the internet "information"; and see what actually comes out and how it is handled before you draw "Conclusions".

Actually Bruno this forum has ably served a wonderful function of helping parents through this. I for one greatly appreciate the wisdom found here. Thank you
 
HMQ said:
Information I've received from the Parents' Council (excerpted):



If any parent feels the need for further reassurance, they are encouraged to contact Col. Bill Grace (Inspector General of VMI), or Tom & Karen Johnson (Co-Presidents of the Parents' Council.) You can find their contact information on their respective pages on the VMI website.

HMQ
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Thanks HMQ. I'll be making that call tomorrow.

My DS admitted to me later this afternoon that some of his info wasn't first hand, but second and third hand. That being said, he knows the kid who was punched squarely in the forehead by the RDC member and spoke to him directly about the incident. I like the fact that the Parent Council is trying to reassure us Rat Parents, but I've got a feeling the truth lies somewhere in between my Rat's stoop poop and the PC statement. I'll follow Bruno's advice and let the Administration investigate from this point forward.
 
Like my DS Rat said this evening, the Rats will deal with and work off the punishments received as a result of their actions...the others will have to answer to the systems set into place. As a parent, I am satisfied with that
 
Forgive some of the nonsensical phrasing below, my iPad has a mind of its own and editing the lower paragraphs appears to be impossible.

Easter2-thank you for taking the appropriate and reasonable view.

Others, before you all go flying even further off the handle and inundate the commandant's office with even more "concerned rat parent" phone calls than they have already gotten about how these out of control upperclassmen need to be made to pay with their cadetships, commissions, or criminal records for their "assault" of these poor, innocent, defenseles rats, take a moment to step back and consider the context in which these alleged events took place.

It is undisputed from all sides that the conflict occurred when the rat mass, en masse, started running around the third stoop like maniacs and forcibly entering the rooms of these upperclassmen, remove their beds and shoes, and taking them outside and throwing or attempting tonthrow them three stories down into the grassy, often muddy, courtyard below. (a pretty funny, tried-and-true prank, and I'm certain a google search would yield some image results from other years)

Now, you all my have a different view than I have, but if some group of people were to come storming into my house screaming and yelling and trying to take my mattress and my clothing and throw them out into the street, you can rest assured that I would not stand idly by and just take it, and I am sure that you would not either. Nor should either of us be expected to.

So, in the ensuing conflict, there were some bumps and bruises and possibly a concussion. All of which will heal. And every one of which was instigated by these poor innocent rats. You cannot possibly believe that the story about the girl who somehow ended up in the midst of it all was just looking for a familiar face to extricate her is the entire, unbiased truth.

The rats decided to run out of control, they were subdued, and now they will hopefully pay the price through the punishment system that are part and level to the ratline (it's what they expected going in and what they should get.)

Perhaps a few upperclassman were overzealous in opposing them. Sometimes that happens when it is 450 people assaulting 25-50. They will undoubtedly be punished as well, hopefully with penalty tours and confinement rather than the needlessly drastic punishments of dismissal or suspension. They did not start it!

Rat parents need to also consider that their rat, while potentially an eyewitness, could only have seen a small part of what went on, gathered all other information from the extensive hyberbole mill, and has every incentive to wildly exaggerate.

In closing, I can only leave you with what was the title of one of the first "groups" that showed up in the VMI network when facebook first came to Post(I m dating myself with that comment) "Some of you cats need to chill."
 
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TPG: Thanks for the reply. What you know about what happened at VMI is probably about the same as what everyone else here knows.
My son will go to an academy or an SMC. Which one we probably won't know until spring when all of his options are on the table. A single incident isn't likely to push VMI off of the table but things like this do weigh in. Like I said in another post it isn't so much the brawl but concerns over the lessons learned. The brawl is only a symptom.
VMI has a great reputation and I hope this will be dealt with in a way that best serves the young men and women there as well as the institution.

I can't imagine the value of a "rat riot" and wonder why it has went on long enough to become a "tradition".
 
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