Dear Keydet: Thanks for posting here. I think we all appreciate you taking the time and effort (on an Ipad no less) to do so. FWIW, from this parent's perspective, both the Rats and the upperclassmen are very fortunate that most, if not all parents (including this one) are prepared to let VMI handle this without further ado, at least after expressing their concern to the Commandant's office. But know this, out in the real world that you will soon enter, things would be different. Take it from a lawyer at the chief law enforcement agency of the United States, in the real world, there would be criminal investigations and very expensive civil suits where the facts would be determined. For example, in the real world, an individual that used excessive force (sufficient to cause serious injury -- like a concussion) in defense of property would likely face criminal charges and civil suits. Parents may need to chill, but there may those among you (Rats and upperclassmen alike) that need to grow up before they get out in the world. Consider it free legal advice.
Rat riot
- Thread starter pennak
- Start date
Dear Keydet: Thanks for posting here. I think we all appreciate you taking the time and effort (on an Ipad no less) to do so. FWIW, from this parent's perspective, both the Rats and the upperclassmen are very fortunate that most, if not all parents (including this one) are prepared to let VMI handle this without further ado, at least after expressing their concern to the Commandant's office. But know this, out in the real world that you will soon enter, things would be different. Take it from a lawyer at the chief law enforcement agency of the United States, in the real world, there would be criminal investigations and very expensive civil suits where the facts would be determined. For example, in the real world, an individual that used excessive force (sufficient to cause serious injury -- like a concussion) in defense of property would likely face criminal charges and civil suits. Parents may need to chill, but there may those among you (Rats and upperclassmen alike) that need to grow up before they get out in the world. Consider it free legal advice.
I am not a current cadet. And maybe I'm just blind to the criminal justice system as a commercial/defense litigator, but I do recall from the bar and from law school that: 1) if someone attacks you, you are entitled to respond in kind so long as you do not escalate (i.e., if someone had pulled out a knife or a blunt object, then we'd be in a whole different ball game); 2) As far as the school is concerned, would not the clear contributory negligence of the "victims" be a defense to any possible negligence on the part of the school for failure to provide adequate supervision, or for, if you consider members of cadre or the RDC to be acting as agents of the school, the direct negligent acts of those individuals? The threat of litigation is certainly a real one, and one that has a direct monetary cost. However, I don't think that anything criminal took place, nor do I think that anything that ought to expose VMI to crushing liability took place. What are the damages anyway? $5.00 in band-aids or a $125 doctor's visit? $25 of pain and suffering? Nonsense.
Additionally, stepping away from "the real world" aspect and back into VMI bluebook-land, any calls for suspension/dismissal/#1s for the upperclassmen involved should include equally virulent calls for suspension/dismissals/#1s of the rats involved as well. They are equally culpable, if not more so, for any physical altercation, and these types of short-lived "riots" ("combinations against authority", etc.), carry the same types of potential bluebook penalties as anything that these upperclassmen may have done.
But that is not the appropriate reaction. VMI will hopefully do what it ought to do, which is punish the rats as a whole for their actions, preferably in some physical way with sweat parties, forced marches, or stoop runs. It will hopefully do what it ought to do and hand out a moderate amount of confinement and penalty tours to anyone that admits to or can be proved to have been involved (at VMI's very low standard of proof) at an inappropriate level as an upperclassman. Life will go on. The rats will continue to be very, very proud of themselves and this event will without question feature prominently on their class rings (the centerpiece of our class side is a flaming sentinel box). What would be a shame is if a mountain were made out of this very small molehill, particularly if that mountain were made by parents with no clue as to what went on or why.
So again, before lawsuits and criminal investigations are threatened, and frantic phone calls are made to inquire after the welfare of these 18 year old adults, I think one ought to take a minute to cool off and consider the reality of the situation.
Additionally, stepping away from "the real world" aspect and back into VMI bluebook-land, any calls for suspension/dismissal/#1s for the upperclassmen involved should include equally virulent calls for suspension/dismissals/#1s of the rats involved as well. They are equally culpable, if not more so, for any physical altercation, and these types of short-lived "riots" ("combinations against authority", etc.), carry the same types of potential bluebook penalties as anything that these upperclassmen may have done.
But that is not the appropriate reaction. VMI will hopefully do what it ought to do, which is punish the rats as a whole for their actions, preferably in some physical way with sweat parties, forced marches, or stoop runs. It will hopefully do what it ought to do and hand out a moderate amount of confinement and penalty tours to anyone that admits to or can be proved to have been involved (at VMI's very low standard of proof) at an inappropriate level as an upperclassman. Life will go on. The rats will continue to be very, very proud of themselves and this event will without question feature prominently on their class rings (the centerpiece of our class side is a flaming sentinel box). What would be a shame is if a mountain were made out of this very small molehill, particularly if that mountain were made by parents with no clue as to what went on or why.
So again, before lawsuits and criminal investigations are threatened, and frantic phone calls are made to inquire after the welfare of these 18 year old adults, I think one ought to take a minute to cool off and consider the reality of the situation.
Virginia still has contrib.? So does MD. I went to law school in a comparative fault state and was a little shocked to see that contrib. is still around.
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I don't practice in VA, so I cannot say with complete certainty, but I am fairly confident that VA, along with NC, MD, and Alabama retain it. In NC it is alive and well, despite the occasional attempt in the legislature to adopt some cockamamie comparative scheme.
Someone is clearly not a plaintiffs' attorney.
Suffice it to say that contributory negligence is no defense against an intentional tort. More importantly, who needs the major FUBAR that litigation or any sort of investigation would entail. E.G., who needs to litigate whether only "reasonable" force was used? Foote v. Commonwealth, 11 Va.App. 61, 69, 396 S.E.2d 851, 856 (1990). Discussion of the multitude of various legal theories and legal and equitable remedies is really not appropriate for this forum. That all said, I am agreed with Keydet that VMI will do the right thing here. I have already heard that Col. Trumps has acted decisively and that Col. Grace is doing what needs to be done. That is plenty good enough for me. But then, my kid wasn't hurt.
I don't think Keydet was dismissing the battery claims, just the potential for claims of negligent supervision against VMI. It was in that context where contib. was raised, and it is interesting that it is still around in Virginia (and several other Eastern States).
Self-defense is what everyone has raised with respect to a civil suit for battery or for a criminal prosecution for what I assume Virginia calls simple battery in their criminal code. This, of course, assumes that there is a proportional response to the reasonably perceived threat. As tpg, bruno, Keydet, and others have pointed out, these are circumstances on which we don't know the facts (and probably shouldn't speculate).
I agree with Keydet, though, that the probability of law suits, and certainly the involvement of the Commonwealth's attorney, seems pretty low.
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I agree, the parents of anyone that was injured should write their son/daughter an email or letter and counsel him or her to avoid voluntarily creating adversarial situations where they have a potential to be injured, and where physical retaliation is in all probability legally privileged. And should further counsel them that where they voluntarily and intentionally deviate from the established norms of behavior in any given situation that there may be consequences, up to and including, bumps, bruises, and headaches.
LOL, not sure that this is the sort that VMI really relishes. The cadets were told that the Governor wanted to know what was going on and that VMI has been hit with a lot of inquiries from alumi. For an institution dependent on the support of alumi and the state, that can't be a good thing. Still, it is an opportunity to show what VMI is made of. So maybe something good will come of it.
Eh-I don't know. I only stumbled upon this and registered to post because I thought that some of what was being said was so outlandish that some kind of response was necessary to stem the tide of hand-wringing.
Yes, VA is a contributory negligence state. Assumption of risk is also a viable defense. I am a former federal agent and now practice civil litigation and criminal law in VA. From what I hear/see, there is no need for litigation of any sort over the recent events. Our son is one of the Rats injured on Sunday night. His injuries are no greater than those he has received on the rugby field. While I don’t think anyone in the Corps should be striking anyone else in the Corps, whether it be with fists or objects, the occasional mixing it up amongst the troops is not a bad thing. I’ll save the references to past basic training experiences and molding of Corps spirit, but for those who have not experienced it, such activities do make for a cohesive unit.
We have complete faith in the VMI system and know that the Commandant et al will handle things appropriately. To the parent of a prospective cadet: We have been very happy with the VMI selection that our son made. You will not find a better education that espouses traditional values and a system that turns out honorable men and women who are dedicated to the service of the country.
We have complete faith in the VMI system and know that the Commandant et al will handle things appropriately. To the parent of a prospective cadet: We have been very happy with the VMI selection that our son made. You will not find a better education that espouses traditional values and a system that turns out honorable men and women who are dedicated to the service of the country.
Ive been watching most of this thread ,, and just wanted to pipe up here about something that maybe is being overlooked,,, now im no lawyer,so feel free to correct me if im wrong, but is it not correct that most if not all of theese rats/cadet are over the age of 18 and that unless the child is dead or mentaly handicapped,, it would HAVE to be that RAT/CADET ie injured party filing any type of lawsuit not the parents, if this is true I cannot see ANY Rat or cadet taking this step , unless being egged on by a parent,,
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Folks I'm really asking at this point that you let this die at least until the Commandant and IG do their thing. It's not doing your cadets any favors, nor iare you helping to "expose the truth". At this point you are recycling stories which may include all kinds of innuendo & partial truths and influencing kids and parents for a very long time with comments that may very well not be accurate at all but which will show up on google searches long after you discover what the real actions and responses were. This is exactly why I have adopted for my signature :EB White's quote from his article in 1948- Death of a Pig: "I discovered, though, that once having given a pig an enema there is no turning back, no chance of resuming one of life's more stereotyped roles". You can't take it all back and do an Emily Litella ("Never Mind") on thre internet. So let's lay off and let this get resolved as it is supposed to.
I respectfully disagree. First, these Rats (young adults) are not in the service, much less basic training, at least not yet. Basic is run by the book by pros (not cadets) with strict military discipline by instructors and recruits alike under the UCMJ. And, of course, in the military the service can do just about anything to you and you can't sue under the Feres Doctrine. Second, an out of control rat riot could lead to very serious injuries. For example, while it didn't happen (thank the Lord), one or more of these cadets could have gone over the 3d stoop railing in this melee. Can you imagine the hue and cry that would have gone up then? That it was an accident would not matter much in terms of the impact on the school. Mixing it up is great fun, for sure, but you just can't predict when someone is going to get seriously hurt in this sort of mob scene. There was good reason that the VMI admin. tried to stop this at the outset.
Seeing how breakout was, for many, many, years (from whenever it quit being a guantlet until up until the early-'80s) an all-out, knock-down, drag-out, no holds barred, no fluid un-thrown fight from the courtyard, up the stairs, all the way to the 4th stoop, rats v. upperclassmen, and no one was ever seriously injured going over the rail, I think we can rest fairly easy on that point.
...and, good reason that the very people (RDC, upperclassmen) that some on here apparently think should be drawn and quartered responded in a physical way to put an end to it.
...and, good reason that the very people (RDC, upperclassmen) that some on here apparently think should be drawn and quartered responded in a physical way to put an end to it.
I Wanted to repeat fact - I received this from the johnson's (previously indentified as parent council president)
"Hello PC Members,
Many of you have probably heard of the "Rat Riot" that occurred this past Sunday evening. Rumors have started coming in and you will no doubt be contacted by worried parents.
These are the details I have been able to put together from a couple different sources at VMI.
The Rats were supposed to be coming down to a Sweat Party given by the Thirds. In keeping with a VMI tradition, the Rats attempted to throw the Thirds hays into the courtyard. The Commandant's Staff got wind of the event and in trying to keep the situation under control, sent the Cadre to stand at the stairwells of 3rd stoop to block the Rats from "rioting." As the situation ensued, groups of energetic Rats turned into mobs and a fight for control of the situation ensued.
Several students received cuts and bruises (both Cadre and Rats), a few went to the Post hospital, and one female student received a concussion. No broken bones or more serious injuries were reported. Please do your best to allay the worries of parents that may contact you about this.
Investigations are under way and all is reported back to normal. More details will follow as they become available."
VMI is very transparent - if any parent is concerned, please contact PC council or VMI staff directly. The VMI website has PC council and contact information available. The council is there to help, offer fact, give guidance, listen, etc to parents of all cadets. I can not stress enough that VMI will handle this, whatever the outcome and regardless of who is involved.
Please contact me if you prefer - I will post whatever followup information I receive.
larrys mom
"Hello PC Members,
Many of you have probably heard of the "Rat Riot" that occurred this past Sunday evening. Rumors have started coming in and you will no doubt be contacted by worried parents.
These are the details I have been able to put together from a couple different sources at VMI.
The Rats were supposed to be coming down to a Sweat Party given by the Thirds. In keeping with a VMI tradition, the Rats attempted to throw the Thirds hays into the courtyard. The Commandant's Staff got wind of the event and in trying to keep the situation under control, sent the Cadre to stand at the stairwells of 3rd stoop to block the Rats from "rioting." As the situation ensued, groups of energetic Rats turned into mobs and a fight for control of the situation ensued.
Several students received cuts and bruises (both Cadre and Rats), a few went to the Post hospital, and one female student received a concussion. No broken bones or more serious injuries were reported. Please do your best to allay the worries of parents that may contact you about this.
Investigations are under way and all is reported back to normal. More details will follow as they become available."
VMI is very transparent - if any parent is concerned, please contact PC council or VMI staff directly. The VMI website has PC council and contact information available. The council is there to help, offer fact, give guidance, listen, etc to parents of all cadets. I can not stress enough that VMI will handle this, whatever the outcome and regardless of who is involved.
Please contact me if you prefer - I will post whatever followup information I receive.
larrys mom
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Agreed....