Reapplying to USNA (after a turndown)

A6E Dad said:
usna1985 said:
In terms of teacher recs, USNA prefers recommendations from your college profs. However, if you’re in a huge lecture class (>100 students) where the prof doesn't know his/her students, USNA will accept recommendations from your senior year h.s. English and math teachers. If you have small sections in college, you should use your college prof.
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USNA website states :
  • If you are a re-applicant and you used your junior year teacher last year, you may use either your senior year teacher or your college professor.
Is it confirmed that USNA prefers letters from college professors? Seems that a HS teacher has a much broader view of the candidate, while a college prof only sees the student a few times a week for a few months, and would have practically zero observation of the student outside that specific class (vs. an entire senior year, every day, and observation of other leadership in school etc for HS teacher).

What if the senior year teacher is the same person as the junior year teacher, but obviously a different class and different year. Would it be ok to have that same teacher write a new letter?

Last, for re-applicants, is the previous year's package available to the admissions board? Ie. are the previous years letters of recommendation looked at and compared to the new ones?

thanks
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You're overthinking this. Simply use the teacher or prof who you feel can give you the most informed recommendation letter... even if that's the same person that was used junior year in high school. I have no idea about recommendation letter comparisons. If it's something you're worried about, then you should assume they are.
 
A6E Dad said:
NROTC nomination is sufficient to get an appointment just like any other nomination, but there are only 20 or so slots available and many more noms that that. Each unit can nominate 3 candidates and I think there are something like 63 units. So up to 189 nominations competing for 20 slots. Also, I believe those 20 appointments are also available to JROTC candidates (no idea how many of them there are), so the competition for them is even greater.
update - per the 2021 class portrait, there were 183 nominations from NROTC/JNROTC
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You should apply to all nomination sources that you are eligible. They are correct that there are many people who receive a NROTC nomination but historically they do not use the 20 spots, the data at West Point is released yearly but I have not seen it for the other academies. These candidates usually have other nominations as well and the academy has more options to "slot" you if you have multiple nominations.

The real issue may be how strong of a candidate you son or daughter is. Nominations can be a little tricky but if they are not competitive against the other candidates in your MOC's district, they may not compete well Nationally against all NROTC applicants.

Now my own opinion on JROTC is a little different. To receive a nomination as a JROTC cadet you have to be in a "distinguished" type unit. You will also be competing against college applicants and the WCS calculations extremely favors those college applicants. It would be almost mathematically impossible for a strong high school applicant to beat out a similarly strong college applicant. There are very few applicants that would fit into the JROTC category.
 
USNA prefers college profs b/c they are able to comment on the student's ability to do college-level work. College is, of course, different than h.s. in many ways and assessing how a student is handling the greater independence, distractions, level of instruction, etc. while still performing in the classroom is helpful. However, USNA recognizes that many freshmen are in huge lecture classes that may not even be taught by a prof (maybe a TA or GA) and/or there is no real way for the student to become known to the prof. In such cases, a rec from the senior h.s. teacher is more useful. And remember, you can wait until almost the end of first semester to submit your LORs as USNA won't review college applicants until after first semester grades are in.

USNA does not want to see LORs from the junior year teachers. The reason is that a lot of time has passed since those teachers worked with you and USNA wants a more current view. If there are extenuating circumstances where you believe you need to use your junior teachers (e.g., senior year teacher moved to Botswana and will no longer do recs and you're in a 300-person lecture class in college), contact your Regional Director at USNA for instructions.
 
thanks for the info,

I understand that they don't want an LOR from the Jr year teacher. The question was about an LOR from the Senior year teacher, who also happens to be the Jr year teacher who send a letter last year. The new letter would of course focus on the entire Sr year, and the progression in academic, leadership, character etc. However, this would be a new letter from the same person that sent one last year, which might not be what they are looking for.

RD it probably the best person to answer in this case
 
RD it probably the best person to answer in this case
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I think this is right way to go -- this is one of those unusual situations where Admissions is the best source of info. Sorry I missed the fine point about the junior and senior teacher being same person -- downside of reading too quickly. :oops:

Also, if you get an answer, please post it so others have the advantage of this information!
 
This is what came back from USNA admissions:

There isn't a preference for LOR from a College professor over a HS teacher. What they do want is a letter from the highest level teacher with direct, personal knowledge of the candidate. Meaning, they seem to prefer a letter from a HS teacher with direct, long term observation and interaction over a letter from a college professor who might have several hundred students and who has little or no direct interaction and engagement. However, if the class size is small and/or the college prof has had direct engagement and can comment on more than just the grade received, then the college letter might be more valuable to admissions. This is completely consistent with what USNA1995 posted above.

Regarding the same teacher for Jr and Sr year, a new letter from the same teacher would fine, since it is an evaluation of an entirely different period. I would think that it's important to make sure the teacher doesn't simply 'buff up' last year's letter, and actually writes a new one.

The question that still remains is, why would Admissions rather see a letter from a college professor in a class of 300 students rather than the letter from senior year (in the case where that senior year teacher was used last year). My guess is that they don't want to see the same letter with the same information again. That only makes sense if information from last year's application package is included and compared in the re-application package. That would also explain why they want a new BGO recommendation. It's only a 'second set of eyes' if they are also including the first one. Again, just my guess
 
A6E Dad said:
That only makes sense if information from last year's application package is included and compared in the re-application package. That would also explain why they want a new BGO recommendation. It's only a 'second set of eyes' if they are also including the first one
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Admissions certainly has the ability to review and compare a prior year application, and a candidate should assume they do. That is why I advise my re-applicants to delay submitting their application until late in their Freshman year of college, so they can include their college experience in their personal statement, BGO interview and other aspects of their application instead of simply resubmitting what they submitted in High School. Admissions doesn't even look at the application until first semester grades are in, so there is no harm in delaying. Remember the old adage that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over an expecting different results. The re applicant should do something different ! That being said, getting the Teacher evaluation (it is not as much as letter of recommendation, as a evaluation looking for specific traits ) from the same person is not necessarily a problem. If that teacher gave the candidate a glowing evaluation as a junior, and gave the same glowing recommendation as a senior--its not going to hurt anything.

A6E Dad said:
This is completely consistent with what USNA1995 posted above
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That's USNA1985 (best Class forever !), and you can pretty much count on her gouge being right on!
 
USMA 1994 said:
A6E Dad said:
NROTC nomination is sufficient to get an appointment just like any other nomination, but there are only 20 or so slots available and many more noms that that. Each unit can nominate 3 candidates and I think there are something like 63 units. So up to 189 nominations competing for 20 slots. Also, I believe those 20 appointments are also available to JROTC candidates (no idea how many of them there are), so the competition for them is even greater.
update - per the 2021 class portrait, there were 183 nominations from NROTC/JNROTC
Click to expand...

You should apply to all nomination sources that you are eligible. They are correct that there are many people who receive a NROTC nomination but historically they do not use the 20 spots, the data at West Point is released yearly but I have not seen it for the other academies. These candidates usually have other nominations as well and the academy has more options to "slot" you if you have multiple nominations.

The real issue may be how strong of a candidate you son or daughter is. Nominations can be a little tricky but if they are not competitive against the other candidates in your MOC's district, they may not compete well Nationally against all NROTC applicants.

Now my own opinion on JROTC is a little different. To receive a nomination as a JROTC cadet you have to be in a "distinguished" type unit. You will also be competing against college applicants and the WCS calculations extremely favors those college applicants. It would be almost mathematically impossible for a strong high school applicant to beat out a similarly strong college applicant. There are very few applicants that would fit into the JROTC category.
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Ok, DS just received a competitive nomination from Congressperson. Is he still eligible to receive an NROTC nom (hoping that would be a principle nom)?
 
Yes he is still eligible for an NROTC nomination. A principle nomination is not necessary to be accepted. I don't believe (but cannot swear) that any ROTC program does principal nominations. I pretty sure that's reserved for MOCs. Keep in mind that no more than 20 NROTC noms are admitted each year... but hey, it's another nom and another shot at the brass ring. Good luck to your DS.
 
So here is the scenario. My son is home from a military preparatory program at an established military prep school (it is Christmas break). He got a 4.0 in his first semester classes (calculus, chemistry, etc), did ROTC (with leadership appointments), raised his ACTs to 33 English and 32 Math (good SAT scores too), and got very good fitness scores (5;40 mile etc). He has applied to all of the academies (except USMMA) this time around. Last year, he got a Congressional nomination to the USNA but did not get in (he has solid high school grades and did varsity sports for 3 years with some leadership positions including club president, President's club, etc; he also did the USNA summer session). He also did not get into the USCGA.

The bottom line is he is focused on one of the military academies. He is feeling very confident right now of his chances, but I feel compelled to have the "what if" conversation with him just in case he does not get in again.

I am thinking he would be interested in taking a year long Chinese language (Mandarin) immersion program in China (he is of 25% Asian ethnicity) if he does not get in, as he has expressed a desire to do this in the past if he failed to get in yet again as he claims the academies like the Chinese language ability.

Assuming the worst case and he does not get in, what could he do for the next year to further enhance his chances? Do you think the Chinese immersion would be a good idea? Are there any programs the military favors? Should he keep taking the ACT and SAT to keep his scores climbing? He will stay in shape, as he enjoys sports and working out, so that will not be an issue for him.

What I am asking here is what can my son do to maximize his chances of getting into an academy should he not get in this time around? My guess is he will do whatever it takes within honorable limits.

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback and ideas. I have also preached the idea of having a contingency plan, and I have him as a captive audience for a few weeks, lol.
 
Jeepman said:
I am thinking he would be interested in taking a year long Chinese language (Mandarin) immersion program in China (he is of 25% Asian ethnicity) if he does not get in, as he has expressed a desire to do this in the past if he failed to get in yet again as he claims the academies like the Chinese language ability.
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You might get more response by posting in the main board (instead of this sticky), but IMO, the Chinese immersion program will not contribute to a reapplication. My recommendation would be apply for NROTC scholarship, continue to pursue a rigorous STEM curriculum, and reapply. If successful, DS has a head start and great opportunities for programs at USNA. If unsuccessful, he's a year closer to a commisson
 
Jeepman said:
So here is the scenario. My son is home from a military preparatory program at an established military prep school (it is Christmas break). He got a 4.0 in his first semester classes (calculus, chemistry, etc), did ROTC (with leadership appointments), raised his ACTs to 33 English and 32 Math (good SAT scores too), and got very good fitness scores (5;40 mile etc). He has applied to all of the academies (except USMMA) this time around. Last year, he got a Congressional nomination to the USNA but did not get in (he has solid high school grades and did varsity sports for 3 years with some leadership positions including club president, President's club, etc; he also did the USNA summer session). He also did not get into the USCGA.

The bottom line is he is focused on one of the military academies. He is feeling very confident right now of his chances, but I feel compelled to have the "what if" conversation with him just in case he does not get in again.

I am thinking he would be interested in taking a year long Chinese language (Mandarin) immersion program in China (he is of 25% Asian ethnicity) if he does not get in, as he has expressed a desire to do this in the past if he failed to get in yet again as he claims the academies like the Chinese language ability.

Assuming the worst case and he does not get in, what could he do for the next year to further enhance his chances? Do you think the Chinese immersion would be a good idea? Are there any programs the military favors? Should he keep taking the ACT and SAT to keep his scores climbing? He will stay in shape, as he enjoys sports and working out, so that will not be an issue for him.

What I am asking here is what can my son do to maximize his chances of getting into an academy should he not get in this time around? My guess is he will do whatever it takes within honorable limits.

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback and ideas. I have also preached the idea of having a contingency plan, and I have him as a captive audience for a few weeks, lol.
Click to expand...

You have to keep in mind that this is not really a national contest. If your son had one congressional nomination, then he really just had one chance to compete for an appointment. The NWL is difficult for high school students.

Which nominations has he applied/received this year?

Did you son have his ROTC commander complete the Service Connected ROTC nomination request and does it show in his portal? If not, you may still have time to complete it.

His application sounds pretty strong but it matters who he is competing against.

My suggestion is that re-applying a third time is a stretch. If you did not get in the first two times, something significant would need to change in your application to make a difference.
 
USMA 1994 said:
Jeepman said:
So here is the scenario. My son is home from a military preparatory program at an established military prep school (it is Christmas break). He got a 4.0 in his first semester classes (calculus, chemistry, etc), did ROTC (with leadership appointments), raised his ACTs to 33 English and 32 Math (good SAT scores too), and got very good fitness scores (5;40 mile etc). He has applied to all of the academies (except USMMA) this time around. Last year, he got a Congressional nomination to the USNA but did not get in (he has solid high school grades and did varsity sports for 3 years with some leadership positions including club president, President's club, etc; he also did the USNA summer session). He also did not get into the USCGA.

The bottom line is he is focused on one of the military academies. He is feeling very confident right now of his chances, but I feel compelled to have the "what if" conversation with him just in case he does not get in again.

I am thinking he would be interested in taking a year long Chinese language (Mandarin) immersion program in China (he is of 25% Asian ethnicity) if he does not get in, as he has expressed a desire to do this in the past if he failed to get in yet again as he claims the academies like the Chinese language ability.

Assuming the worst case and he does not get in, what could he do for the next year to further enhance his chances? Do you think the Chinese immersion would be a good idea? Are there any programs the military favors? Should he keep taking the ACT and SAT to keep his scores climbing? He will stay in shape, as he enjoys sports and working out, so that will not be an issue for him.

What I am asking here is what can my son do to maximize his chances of getting into an academy should he not get in this time around? My guess is he will do whatever it takes within honorable limits.

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback and ideas. I have also preached the idea of having a contingency plan, and I have him as a captive audience for a few weeks, lol.
Click to expand...

You have to keep in mind that this is not really a national contest. If your son had one congressional nomination, then he really just had one chance to compete for an appointment. The NWL is difficult for high school students.

Which nominations has he applied/received this year?

Did you son have his ROTC commander complete the Service Connected ROTC nomination request and does it show in his portal? If not, you may still have time to complete it.

His application sounds pretty strong but it matters who he is competing against.

My suggestion is that re-applying a third time is a stretch. If you did not get in the first two times, something significant would need to change in your application to make a difference.
Click to expand...
USMA 1994 said:
Jeepman said:
So here is the scenario. My son is home from a military preparatory program at an established military prep school (it is Christmas break). He got a 4.0 in his first semester classes (calculus, chemistry, etc), did ROTC (with leadership appointments), raised his ACTs to 33 English and 32 Math (good SAT scores too), and got very good fitness scores (5;40 mile etc). He has applied to all of the academies (except USMMA) this time around. Last year, he got a Congressional nomination to the USNA but did not get in (he has solid high school grades and did varsity sports for 3 years with some leadership positions including club president, President's club, etc; he also did the USNA summer session). He also did not get into the USCGA.

The bottom line is he is focused on one of the military academies. He is feeling very confident right now of his chances, but I feel compelled to have the "what if" conversation with him just in case he does not get in again.

I am thinking he would be interested in taking a year long Chinese language (Mandarin) immersion program in China (he is of 25% Asian ethnicity) if he does not get in, as he has expressed a desire to do this in the past if he failed to get in yet again as he claims the academies like the Chinese language ability.

Assuming the worst case and he does not get in, what could he do for the next year to further enhance his chances? Do you think the Chinese immersion would be a good idea? Are there any programs the military favors? Should he keep taking the ACT and SAT to keep his scores climbing? He will stay in shape, as he enjoys sports and working out, so that will not be an issue for him.

What I am asking here is what can my son do to maximize his chances of getting into an academy should he not get in this time around? My guess is he will do whatever it takes within honorable limits.

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback and ideas. I have also preached the idea of having a contingency plan, and I have him as a captive audience for a few weeks, lol.
Click to expand...

You have to keep in mind that this is not really a national contest. If your son had one congressional nomination, then he really just had one chance to compete for an appointment. The NWL is difficult for high school students.

Which nominations has he applied/received this year?

Did you son have his ROTC commander complete the Service Connected ROTC nomination request and does it show in his portal? If not, you may still have time to complete it.

His application sounds pretty strong but it matters who he is competing against.

My suggestion is that re-applying a third time is a stretch. If you did not get in the first two times, something significant would need to change in your application to make a difference.
Click to expand...
 
Can you use an Army ROTC eval on the USNA application? The only ROTC available where he is at school is Army.
 
I am not sure what you are referring to as an ROTC evaluation. If your son is participating in a formal ROTC program, he is eligible for a Service connected nomination and will be able to compete for those appointments as well.

I do not know if an Army ROTC unit can nominate a cadet to another service. That would be a question for admissions.

If you are just referring to an "evaluation" completed on his first semester performance, that will not carry much weight in my opinion.
 
Old Navy BGO said:
You might get more response by posting in the main board (instead of this sticky),
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I agree, the intent of the 'sticky' area is to store factual/reference material that many would be interested in reviewing without having to do a site search. Individual questions/comments /discussions are more effective when posted in the forum section.
 
Would the academy like to only see new accomplishments? Or should we add our new accomplishments from the past year along with our high school accomplishments?
 
Can a collage re-applicant who is done with HS still retake SAT(s) to better their scores? This is an area my DS can strengthen. Thx
 
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