Received email declined appointment?

[dreamwiz]

How about this for a challenging work environment for an O-1? (Ranger Swamp phase)

Oh...When I saw this photo, my heart started pounding and I wanted to do have a same training soon. It looks not tough but fascinating. It should be great honor for me to take the saimilar or tougher training and serve this great country. I am looking forward to it!

Thank you for sharing the photo.

 

[Mr2020]

Six figure job in first year after graduation and complaining about working as a Deckhand for a few months ?
Do you know what base pay for an 0-1 in the military is ?

If you took into account all of the extra hours, the responsibility, the exposure to petrochemicals, and the general lack of sleep on a Jones Act tanker, I'm way behind a Naval Academy grad. Besides, no glory or recognition. It's cool to fire missiles, not so much to move petroleum products around.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

Do you know how much more training responsibility a tanker mate has than a ensign?

Sorry, I shouldn't have made this about what other 0-1's get paid or hours worked, but would be happy to compare levels of responsibility of 0-1's (as Officer's of the Deck, or a young Marine 2nd Lt leading a Platoon in a combat zone.). The bottom line is that all of your young officers, including both Military and Merchant Marine, have immense responsibility, work hard and face personal hardship and danger.

My comment was about a very recent KP graduate complaining that he had to do a few months of scut work before he landed his 6 figure salary. I don't know much about KP, and even less bout the maritime industry, but that comment would suggest a strong sense of entitlement if it came from any recent college graduate or in any industry. Sure, the other Service Academies may have "guaranteed" jobs after graduation, but as others have noted it takes hard work , perseverance and networking to succeed and get ahead in life , regardless of the military branch , government service or private industry. None of the Service Academies are perfect, but I would suggest that all of them do a pretty good job preparing their graduates for anything they do in life...Beyond that, its up to the individual to succeed.

 

[beyond]

Sorry, I shouldn't have made this about what other 0-1's get paid or hours worked, but would be happy to compare levels of responsibility of 0-1's (as Officer's of the Deck, or a young Marine 2nd Lt leading a Platoon in a combat zone.). The bottom line is that all of your young officers, including both Military and Merchant Marine, have immense responsibility, work hard and face personal hardship and danger.

I'm going to comment about being an Ensign in the Navy because it's what I'm most familiar with.

The level of responsibility is not similar, it isn't close. I've been underway in both worlds. Sitting in a classroom in Pensacola or being the most junior officer of several on the bridge is not the same as what @Mr2020 is doing. @Mr2020 is on the bridge, the only officer awake on the entire ship at two in the morning, calling the shots as you charge into malfunction junction on a loaded tanker. He's also the only one who can punch the shutdown as product is screaming over the rail at 100,000 bbls/hour.

My comment was about a very recent KP graduate complaining that he had to do a few months of scut work before he landed his 6 figure salary. I don't know much about KP, and even less bout the maritime industry, but that comment would suggest a strong sense of entitlement if it came from any recent college graduate or in any industry.

Can you imagine graduating from Annapolis, and the Navy says "Ehh, we're good on Ensigns for a while, we're gona send you to an FFG undesignated seaman instead." Then you say "Wait, I'm an officer! I did well in school, how long will be an E-3?!" and the Navy responds "Ehh, not really sure, maybe a few months, maybe a few years, whatever, here take a mop."

If that Annapolis grad was a little bitter, would you call them entitled?

I know @Mr2020 is a little brash around here, but he is often at least somewhat right. Though I disagree with his post here about KP being a bad choice.

 

[kpmom2013]

Thank you for the comments, @beyond. My DD is a deck cadet on a tanker right now. I have learned a lot about the level of responsibility as you described above. She is working at least 12-hour days seven days a week (not including sea projects) right along with the third mates. When they are in port, they work even harder with loading and discharge. When you think about the number of things that can you wrong both underway and in port, the responsibility is amazing. Oh yeah, she also does some pretty hard physical labor with the unlicenced guys when she is not on the bridge. My DS KP grad is a USN pilot 1stLT, and though he has responsibility for his own aircraft, he does not have the routine long days and responsibilities that a third mate on a tanker has. I mean no disrespect to anyone going active duty, just hope those who are not in the merchant fleet can gain an understanding of how difficult it can be as well.

 

[KPEngineer]

Ever notice whenever anyone in the military wants to complain about pay they only talk about base pay?

That brand new O1 in say Norfolk also gets about another $20K tax free cash in his/her paycheck. Throw another $1200 a year on there also tax free just for getting married. Add in base pay and your O1 in Norfolk makes about $60K, almost half of it tax-free, in a city where the median income is less than $40 ... not exactly poverty friend.

 

[deepdraft1]

Mr2020 is on the bridge, the only officer awake on the entire ship at two in the morning, calling the shots as you charge into malfunction junction on a loaded tanker.

I'm just curious where the 'Old Man' is in this scenario.. A green 3rd Mate on watch 'calling the shots' while charging into 'malfunction junction' on a loaded tanker doesn't sound like something I'd be comfortable sleeping through if I was the skipper..

 

[beyond]

I'm just curious where the 'Old Man' is in this scenario.. A green 3rd Mate on watch 'calling the shots' while charging into 'malfunction junction' on a loaded tanker doesn't sound like something I'd be comfortable sleeping through if I was the skipper..

Do you know where/what malfunction junction is? I know you were with APL for a long time, so you may not have made it there. It can be tricky, but a decent mate should be able to handle it. My first job (...and favorite) was a ship that did feeder work. Once every few months we'd have voyage instructions to shuttle as many empty boxes as possible, as quickly as possible between two ports three hours apart. 8 hours to load, 5 hours last line to first line, and about 6 hours to discharge... Taking arrival three times in 24 hours wasn't impossible. Do you think the old man was always on the bridge?

I did a LOT of cadet time with APL, and have been sailing with AMO since I graduated. I think one of the interesting differences about having permanent third and second mates is that they get more familiar and comfortable with a ship, and the captains get more familiar with them. As a result good third mates get tasked with more maneuvering, and the bad ones get canned. You can't just say "ehh, his 120 will be up and he'll be gone." If the old man can't sleep with someone on the bridge, they usually just get run off, because they won't disappear at the end of the 120. I'm not arguing one dispatching system is superior to another... they're just different and they each have their own strengths.

 

[Mr2020]

Do you know where/what malfunction junction is? I know you were with APL for a long time, so you may not have made it there. It can be tricky, but a decent mate should be able to handle it. My first job (...and favorite) was a ship that did feeder work. Once every few months we'd have voyage instructions to shuttle as many empty boxes as possible, as quickly as possible between two ports three hours apart. 8 hours to load, 5 hours last line to first line, and about 6 hours to discharge... Taking arrival three times in 24 hours wasn't impossible. Do you think the old man was always on the bridge?

This is true. The lack of time between ports mostly prevents the old man from being up there any time other than required by the company, like during pilotage.

 

[deepdraft1]

Do you know where/what malfunction junction is? I know you were with APL for a long time, so you may not have made it there. It can be tricky, but a decent mate should be able to handle it. My first job (...and favorite) was a ship that did feeder work. Once every few months we'd have voyage instructions to shuttle as many empty boxes as possible, as quickly as possible between two ports three hours apart. 8 hours to load, 5 hours last line to first line, and about 6 hours to discharge... Taking arrival three times in 24 hours wasn't impossible. Do you think the old man was always on the bridge?

I did a LOT of cadet time with APL, and have been sailing with AMO since I graduated. I think one of the interesting differences about having permanent third and second mates is that they get more familiar and comfortable with a ship, and the captains get more familiar with them. As a result good third mates get tasked with more maneuvering, and the bad ones get canned. You can't just say "ehh, his 120 will be up and he'll be gone." If the old man can't sleep with someone on the bridge, they usually just get run off, because they won't disappear at the end of the 120. I'm not arguing one dispatching system is superior to another... they're just different and they each have their own strengths.

I have no idea where 'malfunction junction' is.. But just guessing by your post, I'd say it's probably someplace a coastwise 'tanker stiff' would be familiar with. I hear what you're saying about 'tricky' areas that a good mate SHOULD be able to handle.. I sailed on the SL-7's when they were on the commercial Trans-Pacific run with Sealand and there was a reason that you had to have at least a 2nd Mates license to take a job on one. Vessel speed and traffic density on the Far East run required watch mates that had experience AND the judgment to know when to call the captain for help. I've made the turn at Mikimoto Jima Light doing 33 knots to line up for the pilot station at Uraga Suido.. So I know a little bit about maneuvering through congested areas [and at speed no less]. There was a reason the SL's had a captains 'sea cabin' aft of the bridge. Do I think the Master can always be on the bridge? Of course not! But as you will eventually find out when you get command; you will be up there when things start getting 'tight', regardless of the 'company requirements' or who's got the watch .. One way or the other, you better make sure of it. Leave nothing to chance...

 

[MJ2020]

If service academy is what he wants look into self prep at MMI it’s a great school and they really care about the cadets . They work with the service academies and get the cadets ready! It’s a great option.

Agree..,My DS2 is self prep right now.

 

[Mr2020]

I have no idea where 'malfunction junction' is.. But just guessing by your post, I'd say it's probably someplace a coastwise 'tanker stiff' would be familiar with. I hear what you're saying about 'tricky' areas that a good mate SHOULD be able to handle.. I sailed on the SL-7's when they were on the commercial Trans-Pacific run with Sealand and there was a reason that you had to have at least a 2nd Mates license to take a job on one. Vessel speed and traffic density on the Far East run required watch mates that had experience AND the judgment to know when to call the captain for help. I've made the turn at Mikimoto Jima Light doing 33 knots to line up for the pilot station at Uraga Suido.. So I know a little bit about maneuvering through congested areas [and at speed no less]. There was a reason the SL's had a captains 'sea cabin' aft of the bridge. Do I think the Master can always be on the bridge? Of course not! But as you will eventually find out when you get command; you will be up there when things start getting 'tight', regardless of the 'company requirements' or who's got the watch .. One way or the other, you better make sure of it. Leave nothing to chance...

Sometimes the master isn't even up there when required by company policy, like sleeping during a long pilotage. They always say call if you need, but the prevailing idea on my ship is offshore navigation is the easiest part of the job, should be used to do paperwork, and barely important compared to cargo ops. The 2nd mate on my ship had a near miss with a fishing boat during the day, watch AB was doing deck work, and the 2/M was staring into the computer doing the paperwork.

 

[deepdraft1]

Sometimes the master isn't even up there when required by company policy, like sleeping during a long pilotage. They always say call if you need, but the prevailing idea on my ship is offshore navigation is the easiest part of the job, should be used to do paperwork, and barely important compared to cargo ops. The 2nd mate on my ship had a near miss with a fishing boat during the day, watch AB was doing deck work, and the 2/M was staring into the computer doing the paperwork.

Be careful son.. I know you don’t need me to tell you this, but your primary duty when standing an underway watch is to maintain a proper lookout.. All other duties are secondary and pale in importance to that.

I’ll spin a sea story to make my point and help drive home the consequences of not keeping a good lookout..

In 1988 the containership PRESIDENT MONROE was heading for Kaohsiung from Kobe Japan. It was 15:30 and the 2nd Mate had 3 Chinese fishing boats about 3 miles distance pass ahead and clear of the MONROE’s track. The 2nd Mate decided that since everything looked clear he would try and wrap up the watch early by slipping back into the chartroom and filing out his log.. While he was busy doing that [and the AB was distracted making coffee for the on coming watch] one of the boats turned back around into the path of the MONROE. The resulting collision sank a 70 foot boat and killed 23 men. No amount of paperwork is worth 23 lives.. Don’t let prevailing attitudes about the job influence you in conducting your watch in a less than prudent or seaman like fashion.

I want to apologize for deviating from the the original subject of this thread. Hopefully Beyond, Mr2020 and my posts [while not always on topic] will give prospective candidates a little insight into the job of a deck officer in the US Merchant Marine.

 

[cmakin]

I have no idea where 'malfunction junction' is.. But just guessing by your post, I'd say it's probably someplace a coastwise 'tanker stiff' would be familiar with. I hear what you're saying about 'tricky' areas that a good mate SHOULD be able to handle.. I sailed on the SL-7's when they were on the commercial Trans-Pacific run with Sealand and there was a reason that you had to have at least a 2nd Mates license to take a job on one. Vessel speed and traffic density on the Far East run required watch mates that had experience AND the judgment to know when to call the captain for help. I've made the turn at Mikimoto Jima Light doing 33 knots to line up for the pilot station at Uraga Suido.. So I know a little bit about maneuvering through congested areas [and at speed no less]. There was a reason the SL's had a captains 'sea cabin' aft of the bridge. Do I think the Master can always be on the bridge? Of course not! But as you will eventually find out when you get command; you will be up there when things start getting 'tight', regardless of the 'company requirements' or who's got the watch .. One way or the other, you better make sure of it. Leave nothing to chance...

A couple of things I find worthy of comment. There is always work out there, it may just not be exactly the kind you want, but all professions are like that. In my seagoing career, my first berth out of school was on one of those SL-7s on a trans Atlantic run (although as an engineer). My next vessel was a 5,000 hp ocean tug, that I thought was just a bump on the road, but ended up being a huge career change, that I look back on with great satisfaction. Being persistent and flexible will serve anyone well. . .

And regarding sleeping as a Master when a mate is on watch, well, I can address that from my time as a Chief Engineer with a wide variety of assistants on watch. . . the capable ones (that allowed me to sleep) stayed. . .the others? No.

Oh, and I always heard that the reason for all of the second mates was because the MM&P insisted on it because of all of the second Assistant Engineers. . . .

 

[deepdraft1]

Oh, and I always heard that the reason for all of the second mates was because the MM&P insisted on it because of all of the second Assistant Engineers. . . .

In the initial negotiations for crewing the SL-7's MM&P asked for two mates for each watch; a 2nd Mate and a 3rd Mate [six total]. Their rationale was, due to the high vessel operating speed, there was a need for an extra watch mate. Although I'm sure there was a bit of that 'we want what the MEBA got' too. The compromise that Sealand and MM&P eventually arrived at was five 2nd Mates. In the end Sealand got the more experienced people that could better handle the underway watch by themselves and MM&P got at least a couple additional day 2nds jobs. So the way it ended up was there were three watchstanding 2nds and two day working 2nds [Paper Mate and Reefer Mate]. The engineers had a 2nd and a 3rd assistant on each watch; at least when I sailed on them. The SL's were a combined 120,000 shaft horse power [twin screw] and were non-automated which probably had something to do with the engineroom manning numbers.

 

[KPEngineer]

What everyone else said ... now throw in complying with work/rest hour rules.

 

[cmakin]

In the initial negotiations for crewing the SL-7's MM&P asked for two mates for each watch; a 2nd Mate and a 3rd Mate [six total]. Their rationale was, due to the high vessel operating speed, there was a need for an extra watch mate. Although I'm sure there was a bit of that 'we want what the MEBA got' too. The compromise that Sealand and MM&P eventually arrived at was five 2nd Mates. In the end Sealand got the more experienced people that could better handle the underway watch by themselves and MM&P got at least a couple additional day 2nds jobs. So the way it ended up was there were three watchstanding 2nds and two day working 2nds [Paper Mate and Reefer Mate]. The engineers had a 2nd and a 3rd assistant on each watch; at least when I sailed on them. The SL's were a combined 120,000 shaft horse power [twin screw] and were non-automated which probably had something to do with the engineroom manning numbers.

Yeah, not sure how they are being crewed these days. Down below, we had a second and third on each watch, with two firemen. Day workers were the Chief and 1st, and two Day Thirds and two wipers. One of the Day Thirds would work as a "Reefer Engineer" whenever the Reefer Mate would find a box off temp. Otherwise the both of us (I was a Day Third) had plenty do to on those ships. The "Not Automated" designation is a bit misleading. It just meant that most of the auxiliary valves had to be manually opened and closed. The boilers still had their typical Bailey boards to control the fires, although they had to be manually lit. For their size, the plants were fairly uncomplicated. Even when we were operating on one boiler to save fuel for the ocean crossings, we would still make around 26 knots. . . .

 

[navyfamilyof4]

well...this thread took a different turn....

 

[deepdraft1]

well...this thread took a different turn....

yeah, from an email on declined appointment to discussing manning levels and automation on SL-7 containerships.. talk about drifting off course.. yikes!
What this forum needs is one of those 'ask me anything' threads about life post graduation or as a cadet in the 'real' merchant marine. Maybe that would help keep these wild tangents from happening.. Oh, and for those that may have been wondering what an SL-7 looks like; here's the SEA-LAND GALLOWAY during her commercial service life..

 

[StPaulDad]

What this forum needs is one of those 'ask me anything' threads about life post graduation or as a cadet in the 'real' merchant marine.

There's an entire forum for Life After The Academy if you want to kick a thread off there and add a couple starter posts. Or you could whip something up to Sticky at the top of this USMMA forum. It might actually be really useful for folks investigating a potential career.