Recruiters

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Very well said by many. The point is that the recruiters aren't expected to recruit for the other services. Equally so, the recruiter shouldn't be lying to the prospects. And in the case of my son and others who have posted, if my son says; "No thanks, I've already got an appointment to the Air Force Academy"; (EXACT WORDS, BECAUSE I'M THE ONE WHO SAID IT); how can any recruiter try and suggest to me that my son should reconsider, because he was implying that the army would pay for a "Real college" and one that is an ACCREDITED SCHOOL. Considering the words I used were "AIR FORCE ACADEMY"; I can't think of any ambiguity there. The guy is either LYING, trying to Deceive, or should be in a different occupation. To not know what an "Academy" is; especially when he obviously knew it was a college; (Just not ACCREDITED in his opinion); doesn't mean he was honestly mistaken and he shouldn't be expected to know what it is. It simply means he was trying to "Play me". Now I'll be honest; I was polite. I didn't call him a moron like I did here. However, I have to admit that it was about the first word that came to my son's mind when I told him later that evening.

So, you tell me. You say the words "AIR FORCE ACADEMY". The recruiter understands it's a college because he said if my son would consider the Army, they would pay for an "Accredited School". The word "Academy" is the SAME for all branches of the military. It is synonymous with the word "College". So, you really believe this recruiter was just ignorant and uninformed and made a simple mistake? I don't think so.
 
Christcorp said:
The word "Academy" is the SAME for all branches of the military. It is synonymous with the word "College".
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Not really true:

Riverside, Fork Union, Hargrave, Oak Ridge, Valley Forge, Marine, Masannuten, Howe, Camden, New York, St Catherine’s, Lyman, Fishburne, Missouri, Delaware, Northwestern, Augusta, Admiral Farrigut, and many many more, all military academies, none colleges..

Each branch of the Army has its own NCO Academy, US Army Academy of Health Sciences, First Sergeant Academy. Perhaps one of these was that to which the OP’s recruiter was referring.

And then we have police academies, fire academies, beauty academies. Also literally hundreds of private boarding high schools of one form or another that call themselves ‘academies', none of them colleges.

As someone mentioned above, there IS indeed a nomenclature problem. This is not 1944 when Army is playing Navy for the national championship and local sports pages, not enamored yet with professional football, are filled with the exploits of Glenn Davis and Doc Blanchard. Even then it was Army and Navy, West Point and Annapolis, not USMA and USNA.

WP has never embraced the USMA moniker. Perhaps they do not want to be confused with all the military high school academies listed above. I have probably been an observer of this much longer than anyone else in this discussion. Many a blank stare has been quelled by telling someone, military and civilian alike, that USAFA or USNA is the WP for the Air Force or Navy.

unitedstatesAFA2013 said:
………and receive their commission..........
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You, and several others on this thread might do well to do as someone suggested, walk a mile in a recruiter’s shoes. Start by reading the above linked Army Times article. 2013, these combat veteran’s commissions is that they get to keep their jobs and not get demoted. No monetary rewards at all.

Now to the meat of the issue to which bruno alluded. I think if I were in charge of Army recruiting, I would want a recruiter who thought that his route into the military was the best, that the best officers came up through the ranks, total absolute faith in the program that he was ‘selling’. Neither would I be deterred by a “I have applied to USXA”. That statement probably applies to 50,000 high school students annually of which the vast majority will be disappointed. Some of those will not have the money for college. Some of those may truly believe the “I just want to serve my country” statement they made on their USXA application forms. If I were a recruiter, I would target this group heavily.

Folks, get a grip. We are talking the initial phone contact here. The recruiter is attempting to literally get his foot in the door. If he is successful, there will be many more contacts to iron out all the questions and promises, before that ‘bottom line’ is signed. I would certainly hope that anyone ‘smart’ enough to apply to a SA would be smart enough not to buy a ‘pig in a poke’.

This entire thread reeks of the perceived elitism of those applying to the SAs as being too good to be enlisted. Not a good attitude to start, or allow your child to start, their military career. Had any of my kids ever contemplated calling a recruiter a moron, we would have headed for the woodshed.
 
oldgrad said:
Riverside, Fork Union, Hargrave, Oak Ridge, Valley Forge, Marine, Masannuten, Howe, Camden, New York, St Catherine’s, Lyman, Fishburne, Missouri, Delaware, Northwestern, Augusta, Admiral Farrigut, and many many more, all military academies, none colleges..
Click to expand...

But I didn't say Riverside, Fork Union, Hargrave, Oak Ridge, Valley Forge, Marine, Masannuten, Howe, Camden, New York, St Catherine’s, Lyman, Fishburne, Missouri, Delaware, Northwestern, Augusta, or Admiral Farrigut Academy.

I said AIR FORCE ACADEMY to the Army recruiter. Get it? AIR FORCE ACADEMY. I told the recruiter that my son already had an APPOINTMENT to the UNITED STATES AIR FORCE ACADEMY.

And the Army recruiter still didn't get it, he still asked "what my son was going to do for college."

You can rationalize it anyway you wish, but the bottom line is:

There is NO excuse for such incompetence.
 
Luigi, first off, I was quoting Christcorp, not you. Also, thanks for confirming my post stating that to the Army, the USMA is known as WP and the correlation to the other SAs does not carry over.

Like I said, once the enlistment process is complete, this issue goes away. The military depends on satisfied sailors, solders, and airmen to complete their mission. Enlisting troops under false pretense would be counterproductive. I ran across very, very few enlisted who were unhappy because their recruiters had lied to them. True, some believed only what they wanted to but they, most often, realized the fallacy of their beliefs.
 
oldgrad said:
Luigi, first off, I was quoting Christcorp, not you. Also, thanks for confirming my post stating that to the Army, the USMA is known as WP and the correlation to the other SAs does not carry over.
Click to expand...

And for a recruiter from ANY BRANCH not to know that?

That is known as incompetence.

Thanks for confirming it.

PS - This is a forum, it doesn't matter who you were quoting, everyone here is allowed to share an opinion. Don't slip back into your old USNA69 personna.
 
oldgrad said:
Not really true:

Riverside, Fork Union, Hargrave, Oak Ridge, Valley Forge, Marine, Masannuten, Howe, Camden, New York, St Catherine’s, Lyman, Fishburne, Missouri, Delaware, Northwestern, Augusta, Admiral Farrigut, and many many more, all military academies, none colleges..

Each branch of the Army has its own NCO Academy, US Army Academy of Health Sciences, First Sergeant Academy. Perhaps one of these was that to which the OP’s recruiter was referring.

And then we have police academies, fire academies, beauty academies. Also literally hundreds of private boarding high schools of one form or another that call themselves ‘academies', none of them colleges.

As someone mentioned above, there IS indeed a nomenclature problem. This is not 1944 when Army is playing Navy for the national championship and local sports pages, not enamored yet with professional football, are filled with the exploits of Glenn Davis and Doc Blanchard. Even then it was Army and Navy, West Point and Annapolis, not USMA and USNA.

WP has never embraced the USMA moniker. Perhaps they do not want to be confused with all the military high school academies listed above. I have probably been an observer of this much longer than anyone else in this discussion. Many a blank stare has been quelled by telling someone, military and civilian alike, that USAFA or USNA is the WP for the Air Force or Navy.

You, and several others on this thread might do well to do as someone suggested, walk a mile in a recruiter’s shoes. Start by reading the above linked Army Times article. 2013, these combat veteran’s commissions is that they get to keep their jobs and not get demoted. No monetary rewards at all.

Now to the meat of the issue to which bruno alluded. I think if I were in charge of Army recruiting, I would want a recruiter who thought that his route into the military was the best, that the best officers came up through the ranks, total absolute faith in the program that he was ‘selling’. Neither would I be deterred by a “I have applied to USXA”. That statement probably applies to 50,000 high school students annually of which the vast majority will be disappointed. Some of those will not have the money for college. Some of those may truly believe the “I just want to serve my country” statement they made on their USXA application forms. If I were a recruiter, I would target this group heavily.

Folks, get a grip. We are talking the initial phone contact here. The recruiter is attempting to literally get his foot in the door. If he is successful, there will be many more contacts to iron out all the questions and promises, before that ‘bottom line’ is signed. I would certainly hope that anyone ‘smart’ enough to apply to a SA would be smart enough not to buy a ‘pig in a poke’.

This entire thread reeks of the perceived elitism of those applying to the SAs as being too good to be enlisted. Not a good attitude to start, or allow your child to start, their military career. Had any of my kids ever contemplated calling a recruiter a moron, we would have headed for the woodshed.
Click to expand...

With all due respect:
1) all the Military Academies you mentioned are secondary schools (aka 6-12). Anyone should know that by calling a senior in high school, and the word XA comes up (especially with X=branch of the military), that the student will not be attending a secondary school.

2)Police Academies, Beauty Academies are just what one of the many means of the word "academy" - "a school or college for special instruction or training in a subject" - dictionary.com

3)If a recruiter is being threatened that he will lose his job if he doesn't meet a special number of people, then I feel really bad for them if they have to resort to lying. I feel like this should be changed so that they could be a little more informative and less desperate.

4)Why should a recruiter try to talk someone out of an APPOINTMENT to an academy? I understand that many apply and few get in, but with an appointment there is no excuse. "ironing out all the questions and promises" I don't believe he's actually going to be able to promise that "I'll have a good shot at flying jets in the army if I elist while I go to college and they pay "full tuition"". And already you are putting Academy applicants as being more intelligent that those that enlist for not "buying a pig in a poke"(?) What are you calling those that actually do enlist believing these things and later finding themselves getting shot at in Iraq when they had hopes of flying a helicopter because they were told they had a "great shot!"? Way to defend recruiters but completely shoot down other enlisted soldiers.
 
Gee Whiz Luigi - You don't have to yell. We all heard you -
In case anyone missed it - Luigi thinks that the US Army needs to start training their NCO's in all things Air Force.

Now go run off to your Congressman - make this your personal project and get back to us on the results.

BTW - a good friend of my daughter was a top student who turned down an apppointment to a SA and enlisted in the Marines. From what I hear he is happy with his decision. It does happen, and not under duress.
 
unitedstatesAFA2013 said:
Why should a recruiter try to talk someone out of an APPOINTMENT to an academy?
Click to expand...

Again, nomenclature. Probably one in twenty recruiters will face a SA candidate with an APPOINTMENT. It is not part of his every day vernacular. How many colleges are there to which one receives an 'APPOINTMENT'? Why not be nice to the guy, explain exactly what an APPOINTMENT is, and politely tell him that you are not interested? After, all, soon you will be a part of the same military.
 
I might be wrong, but wouldn't Luigi want every NCO trained the CG way:biggrin:

Recruiters are judged by their abilitay to meet or exceed quotas for their EPRS. Failure to reach will permanently be on their career record.

As I stated before we got the calls, but none of them were pushy. I think that is where the issue lies. Recruiters can be viewed by some as those pesky telemarketers that just don't know when to thank the person and end the call.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
Gee Whiz Luigi - You don't have to yell. We all heard you -
In case anyone missed it - Luigi thinks that the US Army needs to start training their NCO's in all things Air Force.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Training them about the military options a 18-year old high school senior may be considering should be part of their training, and evidentially for the Army recruiters, it is not.

Yes, re-training should be a priority.

Or have them continue to show their incompetence. I guess that's your choice, huh? Ignore the problem and it will go away, the old "ostrich" offense solves it, huh?

An Army recruiter who doesn't know that the United States Air Force Academy is a college is incompetent.

Keep spinning it.
 
In a way, I do agree, that by not being properly trained, this starts a negative opinion of not only the enlisted members, but a sister service. That is not good for any military member.
 
Alright folks.. Lets take this down a couple of notches..

Recruiters are in sales. They are selling a specific branch of service. Of course their specific service has the best _________ (fill in the blank). As has been mentioned multiple times, they have quotas they have to meet. The quotas include a number of cold calls, a number of repeat calls, and a number of office visits, not to mention the number that they have to get to sign up.

Go to any business that has folks on commission, you will get the same sales pitch, and the same hard sell.

At this point we will stop the personal attacks. If not this thread will be locked.
 
The best sale people will know his product and his competitors.. He will know what makes his product better or theirs, and will know how to sell his and make it sound the best...

Any recruiter should KNOW what the other branches offer.... otherwise how can he compete?? And yes, an Army recruiter SHOULD know there is a USAF Academy.
 
Oldgrad; I appreciate what you wrote. And I know when luigi came back and mentioned that they told the recruiter specifically that it was the AIR FORCE ACADEMY; that you told him you were responding to my post. Well, swap out luigi's name with mine. I already said that I specifically told the recruiter "Air Force Academy". I also mentioned quite clearly that I remained polite with the recruiter. I didn't educate him. I politely thanked him and told him my son would call if he was interested. Oh, and if you read my posts, you'll see where I did work with/as a recruiter for 4 months. Not quite the same as being a full time recruiter for a couple years; but enough to know what his "Shoes" look like.

JC (J collins) made a really strong point. Being the recruiter is in the "Sales" business, they should know very well what their competition is. How their product/service is better. And learn to compete. Any recruiter should know the other military services. Not in depth details, but enough to be able to compare the positives of their service in contrast. They should also know the local colleges, major employers, unemployment rate, and anything else that competes with his/her chances of signing up a new recruit.

As I said earlier; I can't actually believe that the recruiter who called our house was simply ignorant and didn't know. Especially when he correlated my mentioning of the AF Academy with the army's ability to pay for son to go to an "Accredited College". That sort of tells me that he knew the AF Academy was a college of some form. Especially as unitedstatesafa2013 mentioned; and that a high school senior that the recruiter is trying to recruit, should realize that when the person mentions the word "Academy" they aren't talking about a secondary 7th-12th grade school. No; the recruiter either a) Was BSing, lying, conning, etc... or b) They really are that ignorant; in which case they should educate the recruiter better on his competition and how their service can be a better benefit.
 
At this point it seems as if everything that can be said is going to be said on the subject. I would suggest that this thread go to sleep for a while and people find something new to discuss as this has become a truly circular discussion reiterating the same poitns by all over and over.
 
Yeah, but Bruno don't you know many of us as posters are equivalent to being a puppy...we take great enjoyment spinning in circles chasing our tail!:shake: We can't quit until 1 of 3 things occur...we catch it, get dizzy or give up!
 
If I had stomach surgery I would have just busted all of my stitches...WAY TOO FUNNY
 
RetiredNavyHM,

Please kill this thread.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this when I say that those of us who have served understand the tasks that recruiters are charged with., We also know that they are not morons, and the attacks are uncalled for.


And the more the attacks continue, the more the recruiters and enlisted will be defended (rightfully so), and it'll never end.

If you want to kill it, you have my vote.

jb
 
You say that "those of us who have served understand the tasks that recruiters are charged with." Yet, I have served; 21 years; but because I disagree with a blanket statement about recruiters, I don't understand.

You never heard me once say that "RECRUITERS"; as in the AFSC/MOS was a negative job or position. Even when I called the recruiter who called our house a moron, it was SINGULAR. That one particular recruiter. Even though I said that I assisted by doing recruiter duty for quite a few months; I don't understand. Why is it that you are one of the few here that apparently understands?

And why in hell would you even say that enlisted personnel need to be "defended". Not one post here said anything about an enlisted person. You assume that because the recruiters are enlisted personnel, that any derogatory remark about a particular recruiter, (remember, comments were made about an INDIVIDUAL RECRUITER); that some how this dis is against ALL ENLISTED PERSONNEL. I'm glad you don't know if the recruiter in question was white, black hispanic, asian, etc.... You'd be accusing some here of being racist, and "the more the recruiters and enlisted (white, black, hispanic, asian) will be defended".

Sorry, but some of us were recounting experiences with Particular Individual Recruiters. No one said anything about recruiting as a duty assignment; and we DEFINITELY did not say anything derogatory about enlisted personnel.
 
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