ROTC and Law School

I personally believe that the best route to a JAG career is to do ROTC first (in any branch of service), separate after you have fullfilled your end of the bargain and your service obligation is complete, then meet with the JAG recruiter in law school when he or she visits (and they do visit, usually every spring), and then re-enter service (any branch) upon graduation from law school (if that is what you still want). Although there are many different philosophies about this, my reasons for this perspective are as follows:

1. Going this route will give you the opportunity to explore life for a few years, at a salary that is initially not that much higher than many newly minted lawyers (so you really aren't missing out on much). As you might expect, many lawyers attend law school right after college and then spend the rest of their life wondering whether they should have chosen a different career. Conversely, those attending law school after their service obligation are generally more informed about the variety of career choices available to them and thus are more likely to be attending law school for the right reasons. Much about applying to law school is about demonstrating that you possess a selfless commitment toward the public good (in contrast to the ROTC/SA application process, where the candidate's leadership qualities are emphasized). If you've already served in the military, you've demonstrated your commitment toward that end.

2. Depending on the law school, I'd say somewhere on the order of 25% of the 1L class, if not more, took time off to work before going on to law school (although this statistic may be different now as new college grads have opted to stay in school instead of taking on a brutal job market). These "older" students are typically the students who are much more mature and end up busting the grading curve because they really study in law school (recent college grads tend to think they're still in college and learn too late that law school is a MUCH different animal in terms of academics). The law school admissions folks know this, and this is why the "older" students (especially former military officers) tend to receive a bump in their application standing.

3. You would be amazed how much you learn in the military that is directly transferrable to the practice of law (yes, even in private practice). Over the course of your legal career, you will find yourself drawing upon the things you learned in the military like, say, "how to execute an ambush" and use that to your client's advantage in, say, a deposition or a dispute over document discovery. The big lessons of leadership and your ability to make tough and reasoned decisions are absolutely critical to the successful practice of law. This is why our nation's elite "Wall Street" law firms are LITTERED with many former military officers who were not JAGs (in my experience hiring lawyers at my former law firm, we viewed prior service as a military officer as a very favorable credential). There are also many, many government lawyers who work for government agencies like, say, the Department of Navy, Transportation, Labor, etc., who are former military officers. I think the government also values former military experience (they recognize that former military officers understand the meaning of the word "responsibility"). And if you harbor ANY interest in being a law enforcement officer with, say, the FBI, the absolute "Killer Credential Combo" on a resume is the former military officer with a law degree!

4. Finally, if you serve your initial service obligation and conclude that you're burnt out by too many deployments to the sandbox, you've got other alternatives. And if it is government service that drives you, just know that you will retain the option of serving our country in a variety of ways equally compelling to that of the military (e.g., public defender, prosecutor, judge or judicial law clerk, government lawyer on the staff of an administrative agency, etc.). But whether you decide to re-enter the active-duty military or start a career in private practice, you can rest assured that you've done your part and that our Nation thanks you! :thumb:

I have to say that the best JAG officer that I ever met in my days on active duty was a young Captain with a Ranger Tab (he earned the Tab before entering law school and returning to active-duty service as a JAG officer). So when it comes to law, don't be too concerned about whether you should attend law school immediately after college, as you may actually benefit by spending a year crawling around in the mud and jumping out of airplanes (yes, that is a LOT of fun!).

TPG, congrats on your DD's incredibly wise choice of careers!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You must be extremely proud of her, and justifiably so!!!

Pima, truly excellent post re determination. Determination is key.
 
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Honestly, here's my blunt opinion, once read throw it in the circular filing cabinet.

It is absolutely great to have long term goals/aspirations, but I keep feeling like people are placing the cart before the horse, and sometimes not looking to see if it is a horse or a mule.

Do you want to serve in the military? Are you placing pre-conditions on the military regarding your career?

OR

Are you saying military first, and career second?

There is a HUGE, HUGE difference. One is entering with tunnel vision regarding the military, the other is open to everything that has yet to unfold.

I can say, except for nursing, most AFROTC cadets enter with a career field in mind, but change their decision several times over the course of their collegiate career. That includes SA cadets too.

We consistently talk about Plan B regarding scholarships and paying for college or attending ROTC and commissioning. Guess what? Plan B doesn't end there, it gets whittled a way to a smaller, more succinct Plan B of career fields, especially in AFROTC. Look at how they do boards. Rated goes 1st, and everyone of those cadets that apply for Rated, has Plan B of non-rated fields. Everyone that has non-rated does not hand in just 1 career field, they submitted multiple ones.

What is the common thread? AF makes the decision in the end. You have a voice, but if they decide to make you go Intel when you wanted UPT, SP, or Weather, than you will go Intel.

It is the same in the AD world. You submit your dream sheet of base assignments, but in the end it doesn't mean you will be at any of those bases in the job you asked for.

Finally, you are 17, maybe 18. You have yet to take one pre-law class, trust me, law, med and engineering majors are like the traditional Business, History, Psychology, etc. major. Once there and in the classes you might decide that this is not your path. Come back when you are a rising SR in college when it is time to apply for the delay option. Until that time keep your eye on it, but give some thought to other options.

I always wanted to be a Professor, I have a Masters and until I learned the statement "publish or perish" I was going to continue to get my Ph.D. When I realized that I would have to publish to be a tenured professor, I decided that I didn't want that life. Point is, I made sure I never had tunnel vision when it came to my career.

OBTW Cody, stats can be manipulated to play to the advantage of what someone is selling. Use the 45% selection rate. First off, a pre-law student is not likely to be a tech major. That places them from a scholarship POV at low odds. Secondly, Tech majors get an edge for SFT, which again places them at lower odds. Thirdly, as I pointed out there is a difference regarding who foots the bill, so if you went scholarship for undergrad, I am taking a leap you need FA for law, and without it some will not even go down this path.

Now add that all up together and what do you get mathematically? You get to see how tiny of a shot it is overall, and it still leaves the cadet with the fact that they are not guaranteed JAG.

5% of Type 1 are awarded, 5% of that pool is non-tech. (3 cadets out of every 1000 will be non-tech)
50% get SFT, scholarship has no bearing. (1-2 cadets out of the 3)
45% will get it. (1 out of 1000)

In essence it is not 45%, but when you whittle it away regarding every hoop that must be jumped through it is 33%. Again, and there is no guarantee that once graduated you will get into JAG.

It reminds me of Clint Eastwood...DO you feel lucky?
 
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Just happened to see this article: Link
An interesting read about law school

Great article, gojack! Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure that I agree with the whole doom and gloom, though. You may recall that only a few short years ago EVERYONE was complaining about how much money the new associates were earning without any experience whatsoever. Truth is (at least I hope so) that the economic climate will likely be markedly different down the road from where it is now. For the high seniors pursuing ROTC at a four-year college, then serving on active duty for another three-five years, and then on to three years of law school, by my calculations, that's about 10-13 years from now.

@Pima: You have a good point about life getting in the way of one's plans goals. When I started off down this road, a few moons ago, I recall that my single most important goal in my life was to be THE GUY who would get selected to click the Claymore clicker! And then a mosquito landed on my knee, and my goals immediately changed!
 
First off, a pre-law student is not likely to be a tech major.

Might be, I have worked with several lawyers that have an undergraduate degree in engineering. I have no idea what percentage of lawyers are in the patent and intellectual property fields but there are quite a lot of them. Off topic, I know.
 
Might be, I have worked with several lawyers that have an undergraduate degree in engineering. I have no idea what percentage of lawyers are in the patent and intellectual property fields but there are quite a lot of them. Off topic, I know.

You are absolutely right, Packer! To become a patent lawyer, you MUST have an engineering/science degree. There are over a million lawyers in the US, but only about 40k registered patent lawyers. Patent law is the only specialty in the law that requires two bar examinations (state bar exam, plus the patent office bar exam) and is the "hottest" area of practice in the law right now, at least according to this story from last week about the legal job market: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...premacy-drives-patent-lawyer-demand-tech.html. If you don't believe me, check out the paragraph entitled "Engineers Wanted"! Fact is, we live in a knowledge-based economy where intellectual property assets are often the most valuable assets that a corporation owns!

The reason there are so few tech majors in law school is because many, including the colleges that are supposed be advising students about their law school options, ERRONEOUSLY believe that one has to be in a "pre-law" program or pursue some other "major" that complements a law degree. Total hogwash!

When the non-science folks decide they ultimately want to become intellectual property lawyers and apply to take the patent bar exam, they are summarily turned away along with instructions to head back to college and obtain the REQUIRED engineering/science degree first. But engineering/science majors can always become a personal injury lawyer, if they do decide that this suits them better down the road (this post is not intended to diss other legal practice areas). In short, there is no course of study in college (other than English Grammer) that will help you in law school.

BTW, here's an example of a common patent lawyer ("common" in the sense that his background is not unusual, because he's a really great guy and one of the best patent lawyers in the world): http://www.finnegan.com/DavidHill/ Note that Hill is a 1969 USMA grad and served thereafter as an officer in the Army. You are correct that this is not uncommon.

And to Pima's point about careers taking a winding path, note that Hill sought and obtained an MBA before heading off to law school. Eventually, everyone finds their niche.
 
I am not saying that all are non-tech, not at all. I am saying that if you want law and an AFROTC scholarship your chances of getting the scholarship, getting SFT, getting the delay option change the actual stats.

Additionally, we go back to getting into JAG, and if you are specializing in intellectual or patent law, I doubt that the AF will need you because that is not a field they are truly concerned with coming from a newly minted lawyer.

So yes I agree to a point about engineers becoming lawyers, but if you bring it down to manpower needs of the AF, and career progression, it changes the game.

I also will stick with my view that before you start to believe it is an easy viable path, remember that DOD budget cut is going to be on the horizon not for a yr. or 2, but a decade. Unless you are Carnac, you can't predict. Showing my age I know. Had to do it so the kids can google who on earth is Carnac?
 
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