ROTC question re Educational Delay

[patesq]

Ok, I know I'm going way off topic here but I have a question.

Tuition at John Hopkins is in the neighborhood of $200,000. Expensive neighborhood.

That's high for tuition at Hopkins but about right for 4 yrs of tuition, room, board and fees.

I can't even imagine what tuition would be if someone took a 7 to 8 year ED and spent those years in school.

I hope the OP understands that even if they do get the ED, tuition is on the students dime, not the Army's

There would be NO debt for the MD/PhD program. These programs are fully funded and even pay a stipend for the full 7 - 8 years of the program. NIH and/or the schools fund these programs and the students do not pay anything for the program.

 

[Non Ducor Duco]

The program he is interested in is an MD/PhD program; it's not a master's program. Here's a link to one he is considering: http://www.pubapps.vcu.edu/bulletins/combined/?did=20012. Georgia Tech has one too but it doesn't sound like you're interested in the MD side of it. Sorry, I haven't done any research in to Master's/PhD programs. My husband did a Bachelor's / Master's program at Ga Tech in AE, so I wouldn't be surprised to see one. Good luck with your search!

Ah, I understand now, the program you were refering to gives students medical training on a graduate level that eventually leads to a PhD instead of the conventional Masters-PhD route. Thank you, that clears things up. You are correct, I am not interested in the MD side of it, but I do have a younger sibling is intent on becoming a Doctor of some sort (recently settled on Neurologist but she's 13 so who knows if that particular specialty will stick) and could definitely make use of such a program. Thanks, good luck with yours as well

 

[patesq]

I meant to shut up after my last post. But, I would like raise one more important fact.

OP says s/he found that educational delay of 7-8 may be possible.

A word of caution. That may be the case NOW. But we are talking about 5 years down the road for OP's son. A LOT can change between now and then, and I am afraid not in a good way when it comes to the kind of offers and benefits the military provides.

This is a very good point and another factor for DS to consider when he is considering his options, once we figure out what they all are. Thanks.

 

[Jcleppe]

That's high for tuition at Hopkins but about right for 4 yrs of tuition, room, board and fees.


There would be NO debt for the MD/PhD program. These programs are fully funded and even pay a stipend for the full 7 - 8 years of the program. NIH and/or the schools fund these programs and the students do not pay anything for the program.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I would imagine the competition for these fully funded MD/PHD programs are highly competitive. Do you know what percentage of applicants are accepted into these paid programs. Do most universities have such a funded program or is it just at select schools. Sorry for all the questions, I was not aware of this program before it was talked about here.

 

[patesq]

I asked COL Ling at DARPA for some input.

"Congratulations to this very excellent student. We need more like him!

First, I am very proud to say that the Army has a number of MuD
PHuDs. All have had and are having very rewarding careers. The
Army is the only service I would recommend to such students as we
have the most opportunities and thus best at utilizing these folks' unique skill sets.

As for Army sponsored Medical Scientist Training Programs (MSTP). There is not one. Most formal MD-PHD programs have built in MSTP scholarships. He
could take that and be only obligated for his ROTC scholarship. Another alternative is the student get an HPSP scholarship for the MD part and the student's advisor pay for the PHD. Typically, the PHD is paid by one's thesis advisor - whether or not he/she is MD/PHD or military. This was true for me at Cornell and what I have to do for my doctoral students at USUHS. Besides, the MD part is what costs the most.

Hope this helps.
Geoff"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/farber/249258089/

I always try to trim when I respond but this was such helpful information, I wanted to thank you for all of it. I will definitely pass this on to DS. Thanks for taking the time to ask further. This gentlemen sounds very familiar with the MD / PhD programs.

 

[patesq]

Thanks for clearing that up.

I would imagine the competition for these fully funded MD/PHD programs are highly competitive. Do you know what percentage of applicants are accepted into these paid programs. Do most universities have such a funded program or is it just at select schools. Sorry for all the questions, I was not aware of this program before it was talked about here.

We haven't researched acceptance rates but I would think you're right and they are quite competitive. We've looked at Ga Tech, Hopkins, UVA, VCU, Duke, MIT and Va Tech and all of their programs are fully funded. We found out about these types of programs last year because a colleague of my husband's kid graduated from the one at VCU. We researched and found the other programs - DS got very excited and this became his goal. Right now, the goal is to get him into undergrad leaving the option for the MD / PhD program open - he will have to do what it takes to get into that program. While he's performed quite well in his college level courses to this point, there's no guarantee he will excel in college as well.

 

[patesq]

FWIW as a VA resident, UVA and VCU are night and day academically. UVA is a reach school even for top students IS (UVA is ranked nationally in the top 5), VCU is a safety for mid-stream students, pull a 1280 SAT and you almost have a guaranteed admittance within 2 weeks (rolling). I don't know if this thread diverted somewhere along the line to the assumption JHU was his dream school. UVA and JHU I get academically. JHU/UVA and VCU, I don't get.

We are VA residents as well and are aware of the academics of UVA and VCU. VCU is on the list because they were the first MD / PhD program we learned about and because of the fantastic merit scholarship opportunities there. Additionally, VCU is one of the very few schools that offer a guaranteed admission to med school upon admission to the undergrad program. DH spoke at length to the dad of a student that went through the VCU program and had a child that went to UVA. That dad was significantly more impressed with the education the VCU student received. VCU is his safety school.

 

[Pima]

FWIW,

You placed VT on the list too. Remember VT is an SMC. That will require more time away from his studies. You can be in Corps, but not ROTC, but you can't be in ROTC without being in the Corps, thus why it is classifies as an SMC. If the cadet/mid drops out of ROTC within a certain amount of time in their freshman yr., VT has the right to revoke their admittance. They have that in place because from an admissions purpose ROTC applicants do get a slight edge and they don't want kids checking that square to game the system with no intention of being in ROTC.

VCU was originally a college that emphasized nursing and education, than expanded out. Many people like VCU over UVA due to the personality of the community. Many prefer UVA over VCU due to the campus atmosphere. UVA being a town around a college, VCU being a college in a city.

I am surprised you didn't put W & M on the list.

As far as Merit goes, I think VCU does give out a lot of merit money, but if your child has strong stats you will find that many schools will go after them hard and strong. As another poster stated UMDCP has an amazing program called Banneker Key. They pay for everything, including Ipads, laptops, books and allowance. These are the only students that also have guaranteed housing on campus for 4 yrs. reserved in the Honors dorms. Their program requires them to submit and present a thesis at the end of their 4 yrs to receive the citation. I know of a poster that their kid got offered Duke, MIT, NYU and UMDCP all with merit. They opted UMDCP because of the entire packet and program, many of these students have amazing internships offered to them which was the final hook that swayed them.

UMDCP has one of the largest AROTC units, it also has AFROTC (ranked number 1 in the nation for 2012 by AFROTC HQ). NROTC mids go Xtown to GW. The beauty is if he is on both ROTC and BK scholarship he gets to keep both stipends. The difficulty is UMDCP does not mess around with the min. cgpa...they take it out to the 1/1,000th, 3.194 is in their eyes 3.19 and below the 3.20 min. they are put on immediate academic probation. This places stress on the cadet because if they lose the scholarship than they are in a financial pinch, and that means attending might not occur, thus commissioning could also be gone too!

 

[patesq]

FWIW,

You placed VT on the list too.

VT is at the bottom of his list – they don’t have a biomedical undergrad major (just a minor) and he didn’t like the campus when we visited. But, it’s a state school and he is keeping his options open.

I am surprised you didn't put W & M on the list.

W&M doesn’t have any engineering majors unless you do a 5 year program with an engineering school; I believe Columbia is one of them. DS doesn’t want to do a 5 year program before starting an 8 year program. And, W&M is ½ hour away from home, not far enough for most high school kids, including DS.

As far as Merit goes, I think VCU does give out a lot of merit money, but if your child has strong stats you will find that many schools will go after them hard and strong. As another poster stated UMDCP has an amazing program called Banneker Key. They pay for everything, including Ipads, laptops, books and allowance. These are the only students that also have guaranteed housing on campus for 4 yrs. reserved in the Honors dorms. Their program requires them to submit and present a thesis at the end of their 4 yrs to receive the citation. I know of a poster that their kid got offered Duke, MIT, NYU and UMDCP all with merit. They opted UMDCP because of the entire packet and program, many of these students have amazing internships offered to them which was the final hook that swayed them.

DS is interested in the top BME schools (JHU, Ga Tech, Duke & MIT) and the state schools that offer options in BME (UVA, VCU & Va Tech). I’m not sure about the other schools you listed w.r.t. merit but MIT does not give out merit scholarships – all of its scholarships are based solely on financial need (http://web.mit.edu/sfs/scholarships/MIT_scholarships.html). DS has started the search for outside scholarships but we’re finding that most of the top schools, like those on his list, give out few or no merit scholarships. Georgia Tech seems to be his best chance at a merit scholarship from a top BME school. My sister applied to Duke for grad school and they seemed able to find money for her (MBA, not a research degree) but I don’t know if that applies for undergrad as well. Thanks for the info about the UMD program; I'll pass it on but he doesn't seem to want to add to his list. I've suggested other good BME schools (BU and U Penn) but no interest.

 

[Non Ducor Duco]

I just got back from freshman orientation at GT and the BME major seems to be the new hot ticket. Most of the people I met there were doing BME and quite a few wanted to do pre-med. I think the influx may be due to the fact that John Hopkin's(#1 in BME) tuition is $42,000~ while GT(#2 in BME)is less than half that for OOS and GT is only second to JH by .1 points on the ranking scale. Top notch program for a fraction of the price. With the increase in the price for college, GT seems to be attracting more and more top notch applicants. They had more ppl accept admission than they expected so this freshman class will be the largest ever. They are making accommodation to receive all of us, but next year they are going to account for that so that they wont be caught off guard like that again. I took it to mean that the competition is going to get tougher next year. But it's still a great place to go/apply to. GT has always been considered competitive, of the 10 ppl I know that applied none got in and 1 was wait-listed, but it's no real stretch for good students that prepare themselves. As long as your kid has great grades, test scores, extracurricular, and can write a decent essay, which I'm sure he does from the sound of it, he should still have no real problem getting in, even with the extra competition which will probably only improve the school and it's reputation. It's just info to consider as your DS makes his decision.

Also, I doubt that the competition for the Presidential Scholarship at GT is any less stiff than it is at the other schools you were looking at. There are very few offered and of everyone that goes, all of them are smart, most of them are really smart, and there are quite a few that have scores that top the charts...more of those exist than the amount of spots available which I believe is about 50. Not trying to discourage you or your DS, but I just want you to know that, while it is far from impossible, you shouldn't count on that money being there for you. There's no application for it either, which means they go purely by your test scores and GPA. When you apply for admission, they look at the top 100 candidates and offer them interviews, they then narrow it down to the amount they're willing to give out scholarships to. So you could be out of the running for it before you even know it. There's no way to tell. They just send you an email saying sorry, you're competitive, but that it wasn't enough to get an interview after notify the ones they want.

 

[goaliedad]

Not that you want another school to consider, but Case Western (ROTC is handled through John Carroll University 5 miles across town) has a top rate (just outside of the top 10) BME program that has options for Pre-Med preparation. It is also known for merit money. The John Carroll ROTC unit is well respected in the brigade.

Disclaimer - I have a nephew who graduated from there a couple years back in engineering who is working for one of the National Labs (had a choice of jobs from other highly prestigious employers as well).

 

[patesq]

I just got back from freshman orientation at GT and the BME major seems to be the new hot ticket. Most of the people I met there were doing BME and quite a few wanted to do pre-med. I think the influx may be due to the fact that John Hopkin's(#1 in BME) tuition is $42,000~ while GT(#2 in BME)is less than half that for OOS and GT is only second to JH by .1 points on the ranking scale.

Thanks for the update and congrats on going to Ga Tech! Knowing DS, I really think he would be happier at Ga Tech than JHU. And, it's a much better value for his program. Also, he has family outside of Atlanta - DH grew up there, graduated from Ga Tech (BS and MS) and DS has grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins in the area so I'd feel a little better about him being that far away.

As long as your kid has great grades, test scores, extracurricular, and can write a decent essay, which I'm sure he does from the sound of it, he should still have no real problem getting in, even with the extra competition which will probably only improve the school and it's reputation. It's just info to consider as your DS makes his decision.

It seems like a lot of schools are getting more and more competitive. A friend of DS was rejected from MIT with a 2390 on the SAT - she was also valedictorian, active in church and school and a published author, not self-published, she won a contest to earn the right to have her book published. Very nice girl, outgoing, friendly - I was shocked. DS does have fantastic grades (valedictorian on track to set a GPA record at his school), has taken a very rigorous course load (6 AP courses through junior year and 5s on all of the tests along with college courses in physics, linear algebra, multivariable calc and research; he's taking differential equations this summer), good test scores (800s on 3 SAT subject tests: bio, US History and math2; 2220 on the first SAT, taking it again in October), and lots of ECAs (silver medalist in air rifle Junior Olympics this summer, 4th and 2nd degree blackbelts in 2 martial arts, Boys State, many honor societies, Scholastic Bowl, coach of the middle school MathCounts team, volunteer with greyhound rescue and a local hospital). He is competitive but not a guarantee anywhere but probably VCU and Va Tech.

Also, I doubt that the competition for the Presidential Scholarship at GT is any less stiff than it is at the other schools you were looking at. There are very few offered and of everyone that goes, all of them are smart, most of them are really smart, and there are quite a few that have scores that top the charts...more of those exist than the amount of spots available which I believe is about 50. Not trying to discourage you or your DS, but I just want you to know that, while it is far from impossible, you shouldn't count on that money being there for you.

He's not counting on it but I think it's his best shot (not necessarily a good shot) for a merit scholarship at his top choices. UVA gave out 27 Jefferson Scholarships for the class of 2015 (and you have to be the one student recommended from your high school to even be considered), JHU has 2 merit scholarships for the engineering school. MIT doesn't give out any. We haven't looked into Duke in much detail but my recollection is they have more than JHU but not a ton. Ga Tech's web site claims they give out up to 75 Presidential Scholarships and that there's no preference for in state students, which surprised me. It's going to be interesting to see how this works out over the next several months.

 

[patesq]

Not that you want another school to consider, but Case Western (ROTC is handled through John Carroll University 5 miles across town) has a top rate (just outside of the top 10) BME program that has options for Pre-Med preparation. It is also known for merit money. The John Carroll ROTC unit is well respected in the brigade.

Thanks for the suggestion - I will pass it on. Interestingly, I was researching OSU today because they have a varsity rifle team and he would like to continue shooting in college if he can. They're even sending a student to the Olympics in London. DS didn't appear terribly interested in Ohio but sometimes he needs to let things sit in his brain for a bit before deciding it's worth further thought. Teenagers are often quite frustrating...

 

[Non Ducor Duco]

Thanks for the update and congrats on going to Ga Tech! Knowing DS, I really think he would be happier at Ga Tech than JHU. And, it's a much better value for his program. Also, he has family outside of Atlanta - DH grew up there, graduated from Ga Tech (BS and MS) and DS has grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins in the area so I'd feel a little better about him being that far away.


It seems like a lot of schools are getting more and more competitive. A friend of DS was rejected from MIT with a 2390 on the SAT - she was also valedictorian, active in church and school and a published author, not self-published, she won a contest to earn the right to have her book published. Very nice girl, outgoing, friendly - I was shocked. DS does have fantastic grades (valedictorian on track to set a GPA record at his school), has taken a very rigorous course load (6 AP courses through junior year and 5s on all of the tests along with college courses in physics, linear algebra, multivariable calc and research; he's taking differential equations this summer), good test scores (800s on 3 SAT subject tests: bio, US History and math2; 2220 on the first SAT, taking it again in October), and lots of ECAs (silver medalist in air rifle Junior Olympics this summer, 4th and 2nd degree blackbelts in 2 martial arts, Boys State, many honor societies, Scholastic Bowl, coach of the middle school MathCounts team, volunteer with greyhound rescue and a local hospital). He is competitive but not a guarantee anywhere but probably VCU and Va Tech.


He's not counting on it but I think it's his best shot (not necessarily a good shot) for a merit scholarship at his top choices. UVA gave out 27 Jefferson Scholarships for the class of 2015 (and you have to be the one student recommended from your high school to even be considered), JHU has 2 merit scholarships for the engineering school. MIT doesn't give out any. We haven't looked into Duke in much detail but my recollection is they have more than JHU but not a ton. Ga Tech's web site claims they give out up to 75 Presidential Scholarships and that there's no preference for in state students, which surprised me. It's going to be interesting to see how this works out over the next several months.

2230 SAT, that is incredible. It'd be very surprised if he didn't get into GT with credentials like that, even with the competitive environment. My SAT score was about 300 points under that and got in easy enough...although, at the same time I am entering with 30+ credits to my name, enough to be classified an academic sophomore, did well in all the courses, and applied early so that probably trumped my SAT scores. I don't see how there is a chance he'd be rejected, especially not if he applies ED. I believe that I was told 80% of applicants apply for Regular Decision, which drastically decreases anyone's chances. Bravo patesq, bravo. sure the kids are the ones that physically complete the work, but it's the parents that do the most important work, preparing their children for success and molding them into the people they are. Thanks to you, your son will be successful no matter which direction he decides to go. I'm a little surprised though that you haven't mentioned that he wishes to apply for an academy, do they not offer BME majors?

 

[patesq]

I don't see how there is a chance he'd be rejected, especially not if he applies ED. I believe that I was told 80% of applicants apply for Regular Decision, which drastically decreases anyone's chances.

He is applying early so he can qualify for the Presidential so that's good news. He is also legacy there but we can't figure out if that helps him at all.

I'm a little surprised though that you haven't mentioned that he wishes to apply for an academy, do they not offer BME majors?

We haven't been able to find a BME major at the academies. He did look into the Naval Academy for a while because they have a program where you can get a masters through JHU your senior year (he would have majored in MechE undergrad and then have gotten a masters in BME.)- he has so much college credit that he would be able to fit that in but we found out that he could do either the masters program or med school but not both. And there was no way to do an MD / PhD program coming out of the Academy, or at least that's what we were told.

 

[Pima]

patesq,

SA's do not accept college credit the way you are assuming. Every single cadet/mid starts with 0 college credits. All his college credits would do for him is validate some classes, in other words he wouldn't have to take them, but it doesn't mean they will consider the credits towards his college degree.

As you go through the process you will find some colleges are the exact same and even much sneakier. DS's and DD's colleges are both that way. Our two kids had many credits, but they were either used as validation classes or electives. The way they get kids to stick around for the 4 yrs is through their required curriculum classes. They set it up so a class required always has a pre-req and that pre-req is always offered only 1x a yr. So even if your child had 30 credits accepted, the class they would need for freshman yr is not there, thus they have to take 12 credits anyway. This is why you see so many kids on this site talking about the fact they have dual majors, or majors, minors and core concentration. Their using those 30 credits.

DS could have graduated early, but than he had the other issue... AFROTC. He needed to work within their timetable too. SFT, TBAS, Rated Board, etc. It would have been more of a headache to graduate early, thus he walked out with Govt and Politics, International Relations, and Military History. Our DD will walk out on time, but she too will have a dual major, communications and journalism, with a teaching certificate and a French minor. She now has all of her bases covered in case she doesn't get into grad school for journalism.

Let's be honest colleges are not in the business of not making money. Yes, I know about the VA and NC programs where they go to the community college for 2 yrs, pull a 3.0 and can transfer over, but that is also the devil in the details situation. A student going to an NC CC is not guaranteed all 60 credits will transfer to a VA college. This is a program specifically made for IS students. When you look even deeper into it, only certain programs will be accepted by certain colleges. For example, GMU is one of the many colleges that participates in the program, BUT it is the only college to accept General Studies. UVA will not accept GS.

I know this is not the path your child is going to embark on, my point was to illustrate how colleges don't like to take college credits unless their hand is forced. They want them to stick around for all 4 yrs, because let's be truthful, as an OOS student that is a 6 figure chunk of change.

 

[NavyHoops]

Yes the Naval Academy has a program called VGEP (Voluntary Graduate Education Program - I think that is still it). It allows select First Class Midshipmen to commute to local schools (generally it is JHU, Maryland, GW, Georgetown, American) during the day to start their Masters degree second semester of their senior year. They then continue on for the summer semester and then the fall after they graduate. Once they complete the schooling they head off to their respective service assignments. I think on average there are around 15 or so Mids who particpate in this (or at least there used to be). This is done through validation of classes and alot of times Mids will have to add a course to their schedule a few semesters to meet this demand. They still live in Brancroft Hall, attend PE and Service Assignment courses, and have their military duties to deal with the first semester of the program. How many college courses he has does not really matter at a Service Academy. It comes purely down to validation. Validation varies from course to course, sometimes it is AP scores (most of the time 5s are required for courses that can be validated this way) and others are done by exams.

 

[Pima]

Navyhoops,

I just want to clarify, I wasn't saying they didn't have the program I was only pointing out like you stated they do not commission early, and that college credits only count for validation.

I felt that patesq, believed he would be able to use those credits towards his course load

where you can get a masters through JHU your senior year (he would have majored in MechE undergrad and then have gotten a masters in BME.)- he has so much college credit that he would be able to fit that in

This would be a fallacy.

 

[NavyHoops]

Didn't take it that way Pima at all. No worries. Yes, I agree, it sounded as if there was an assumption (could be wrong) those college credits could be used. Definitely not the case at a SA. Didn't realize the Catch 22 civilian universities were using on that. Interesting.

 

[Pima]

I can say for sure the mid-atlantic states flagship public universities are when it comes to the catch 22.

DS had 4's and 5's, also did Jump Start. 50% of the day at HS taking AP's 50% at the CC. He got caught into the:

FOR YOUR MAJOR YOU MUST TAKE THIS CLASS!

He was in their Scholars program, and actually for every other class his freshmen classes were Soph, except for that 1 dang major class. He was OOS (NC grad to UMDCP), we thought okay we can go with that...OOS MD has their regs, and it doesn't match NC.

DD is IS at VT, went from Sociology to English/Journalism/Communications major. LAC majors She validated her courses through the AP and CC program. Was actually ahead of schedule to graduate within 3 1.2 yrs. End of freshmen yr, when she switched they told her that the Math she validated, and than at VT took the next level would not apply to her new major. That is when we started to understand this was more about making money.

Both are LAC, she validated freshman Math, took the higher course, but now all of the sudden English/Journalism needed a totally different Math than Sociology! Since when did these majors need Math higher than Stats, Differentials, and Calc? Yet, there she was...and as hard as she messed with the schedule, her Math classes prior didn't count towards her electives, which hurt because she needed those class to slide in as an elective to graduate early. Now she will just graduate with tons of different degrees because of her HS credits.

Our closest friends, they are our AF family, had this happen to her DD for Nursing out of ECU. She took the go to CC IS, pushed forward during the summer to get a jump start, only to find out that she had to spin her wheels because of the pre-reqs for nursing, and as an AF dependent this became an issue. AF considers dependents over 18 only if they are FT students, if she didn't carry 12 credits, she had no health insurance.

The devil is always there in the details.