rotc question

[Bullet]

Seems to me a piece of the puzzle is missing to get to the full story. That being said, sounds to me like some new unit commander is doing his best Gregory Peck in "12 O'clock High" impersonation.

My advise to your son: BEFORE he goes into this commander's office for his appointment, his first visit should be to his direct OIC (either the Capt or Major in direct charge of him). Explain the situation to THIS officer first, get HIS read on the situation, make it VERY obvious to him that your son WANTS to improve, and is visiting him first to get together a game plan that will address the commander's concerns and prove his is worthy of staying in the Corps of Cadets. Gave your son ask this Major if he would talk to the Colonel afterwards about the situation to get honest feedback on what the Commander saw that needs improvement.

And this is the toughest part: ACT ON EVERY SUGGESTION his unit leadership wants to see. If he wasn't leading but managing the crowd, ask for opportunities to try again (complete with feedback on what to improve). If they saw lack of effort, or "goofing off" (not saying that is what your son DID, just saying that is what the Commander SAW), then take it serious next time (I think this may have been the wake up call as to how serious he needs to be).

Bottom Line: use his chain of command to get a clear understanding of what the concerns are, what future expectations will be, and what he needs to do to prove that this particular week-end was a "fluke" in an otherwise good future officer's learning process. Then prove it.

 

[adoloris]

Thanks Bullet for the advice and will pass it on. DS wants to meet with the PMS to get direct feedback and adjust to meet his requirements. He really respects his PMS and is highly motivated, as are the others, to "jump" as high as the PMS requires. These guys are good kids and students. Agree with Kinnem again--are you pyschic? Anyway, just some fyi--if I had one molecule of indication that DS wasn't telling me something I sure as heck wouldn't be posting--I would be grilling my DS. Non of these guys have ever flunked their APFT's, are good students, have not gotten into any trouble, etc. This unit has had the same PMS for years and have been bopping along to the former PMS's beat. The new PMS is definitely kicking things up a notch, as is his prerogative, and the guys are eager to please. I think they just need to know the parameters. These are all good lessons to learn now instead of later--at least that's what I told DS when we last spoke about this. Thanks again for listening

 

[Bullet]

I mention a "missing piece of the puzzle" not as an isninuation that your son may be hiding something, but to make evreyone realize that there are usually multiple sides and issues to every story.

We really don't know what the Commander was thinking that day, or what his intent was. Did he see some of his cadets "slacking off" (again, not saying that is what your DS did, just what the CC saw), and felt it was necessary to set an example and motivate the rest of the Brigade? (hence the "12 O'Clock High" reference) Or did he want want to send a wake-up call to his staff and his cadets that barely cutting it wasn't cutting it anymore. Or did he simply see that one moment when your son was cracking a joke or two with his classmates, and THAT became his first impression ("not taking this seriously"), while missing the rest of the day's activities where your son did fine.

Remember, this Commander is an O-6; he's led folks before, plenty of times. You can't make any assumptions that he doesn't know what he is doing when it comes to leading his troops. He's seen it before. Leaders change all the time, and each has a different style, your son (and every other future officer on here) needs to learn to adjust to this -- getting to know expectations from each commander is what makes YOU successful.

Like I said, have your son talk to his immediate OIC and get some clarity to the situation. Your DS has a chain of command, and if I was this particular Commander, the first question I would ask this cadet would be "Have you talked to Major so-an-so?" Better yet, have your son ask his OIC to sit in on the meeting (if able) when he goes to talk to the Colonel.

No one likes to be scared they are potentially failing at something like this, not knowing the full story only adds to those worries.

 

[dunninla]

The new PMS is definitely kicking things up a notch

this is not the first I have heard of a greater sense of urgency this school year in Battalions. Not sure if this is coming from Cadet Command, Brigade, or the individual PMS, but I suspect a combination of all three. There is definitely a more serious tone this year, generally.

This is completely off topic, but same principal. UCLA fired it's "players coach" Rick Neuheisel last year and hired ex-NFL coach Jim Mora, who is more of a disciplinarian. Not sure of the detail, but it goes something like this: At the final week of Spring Practice, the Seniors had a recent tradition of showing up, then leaving practice. Apparently this was a tradition Neuheisel allowed to continue (or it started under him). When a few seniors started to walk away from practice this past Spring, Mora noticed it, wondered what was going on, then blew a fuse. He basically said that if the Seniors thought they could get away with that type of crap under his leadership, then they could keep on walking and not come back.

 

[Jcleppe]

this is not the first I have heard of a greater sense of urgency this school year in Battalions. Not sure if this is coming from Cadet Command, Brigade, or the individual PMS, but I suspect a combination of all three. There is definitely a more serious tone this year, generally.

This is completely off topic, but same principal. UCLA fired it's "players coach" Rick Neuheisel last year and hired ex-NFL coach Jim Mora, who is more of a disciplinarian. Not sure of the detail, but it goes something like this: At the final week of Spring Practice, the Seniors had a recent tradition of showing up, then leaving practice. Apparently this was a tradition Neuheisel allowed to continue (or it started under him). When a few seniors started to walk away from practice this past Spring, Mora noticed it, wondered what was going on, then blew a fuse. He basically said that if the Seniors thought they could get away with that type of crap under his leadership, then they could keep on walking and not come back.

I apologize for staying off topic but.....

As a Washington Husky Faithful, I had a sly grin on my face the day UCLA fired Rick Neuheisel.

 

[dunninla]

As a Washington Husky Faithful, I had a sly grin on my face the day UCLA fired Rick Neuheisel.

yeah, well he seems like a nice enough guy, but that's THREE programs that got worse under his...."leadership".... If Dan Guerrero, UCLA's AD, ever gets replaced, that will be the biggest reason -- bad hire in retrospect, though not terrible considering the small amount of money allocated to the Footbal head coach, and really small amount for assistant coaches. I think its a moot point now though that the Pac12 public schools (USC and Stanford as Private schools have always been able to do whatever they want) can actually pay true HEAD coach salaries vs. prior years, now with the new PAC12 TV money. During almost all of the prior two UCLA head coaching tenures of nine years, top SEC and Big Ten coaches, plus USC, were earning between 2x and 4x what was being paid to the UCLA head coach. Probably similar prior salary constraints at UDub, WSU, ASU, UofA, Cal. Anyway, you get what you pay for.

 

[kinnem]

Any updates?

adoloris, any updates on this you would care to share with us?

 

[wolfpack1993]

This seems like an odd situation. As far as I know, it's very difficult to get disenrolled. You have to fail your APFT, not make the cut academically, or have discipline issues.

 

[adoloris]

final update

Heard from DS,finally had his meeting with his commander. He received some positive feedback on his skills, etc. What the PMS wants from him and the others is a stepped up level of "motivation". They discussed in detail what this means and how he is to achieve it. The PMS wants to get his top cadets to perform at a higher level thereby bringing the entire unit "up". He is very pleased with DS's attitude and academics, etc. DS was also able to get some very good advice about changing his major and guidance toward his goal of aviation which he hadn't received before. He really respects and likes his PMS and knows that these are very good goals. We discussed how a really good mentor can guide you and push you to grow in ways that you may be unaware of at the time. So, apparently the dressing down of DS and the others had several purposes. It certainly did have my DS mentally review his actions, conduct, skills, etc. and look for areas of improvement. Also, it most likely shook up the entire unit down to the deadwood.

 

[EDelahanty]

Hi all, I have a question-without giving too many details, I have just spoken with DS (who has a 4 year army rotc scholarship, is in his 3rd year in mechanical engineering,is an excellent student-4.0 each year--you get the picture). His unit has a new commander. He and 4 other rotc cadets were pulled aside after field exercises by this commander,who wrote their names down, and has indicated that they will be "kicked" out of the program due to "lack of motivation" and "motivating their squads". DS states that he and the others are in a state of shock. All tasks were completed in good time and order. He will meet with his commander--his initiation--to inquire further into what he was lacking. I have instructed him not to sign anything. Any insight here would be greatly appreciated.

So it turns out that the new PMS intended to jar complacency of the unit by using the classic technique of taking names and kicking ass. Since the MS4s have already gotten their OML rankings and will be less receptive to this type of motivational tactic, he shrewdly targeted the MS3s. It's possible of course that as a class the MS3s are underperforming and merit a jolt, just as it is possible that it is actually the MS4s who have been below standard. In any case, as suggested earlier in this thread, it is a valuable experience in variations of leadership styles

I wonder what sort of feedback your son and his peers have been getting from the MS4s through this.

 

[kinnem]

Heard from DS,finally had his meeting with his commander. He received some positive feedback on his skills, etc. What the PMS wants from him and the others is a stepped up level of "motivation". They discussed in detail what this means and how he is to achieve it. The PMS wants to get his top cadets to perform at a higher level thereby bringing the entire unit "up". He is very pleased with DS's attitude and academics, etc. DS was also able to get some very good advice about changing his major and guidance toward his goal of aviation which he hadn't received before. He really respects and likes his PMS and knows that these are very good goals. We discussed how a really good mentor can guide you and push you to grow in ways that you may be unaware of at the time. So, apparently the dressing down of DS and the others had several purposes. It certainly did have my DS mentally review his actions, conduct, skills, etc. and look for areas of improvement. Also, it most likely shook up the entire unit down to the deadwood.

Thanks for the update adoloris! This was an interesting tale and it seems that either the PMS was requiring 100% from everyone, or more likely redefining what 100% meant. Certainly the latter seems to be the case with your DS. Glad to hear about the aviation guidance he got. This PMS certainly seems to be interested in getting the best from, and the best for, his "boys". And he did it in a way that rattled the whole unit with reverberations all the way back home! Nothing wrong with enlisting Mom and Dad in helping to make the "upgrade" I suppose, but I'm sure you found it a harrowing experience as would I. Glad the story has a happy ending!

 

[adoloris]

Thanks

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input and am thankful for the outcome. Also, very glad that DS handled this himself but felt that he could still call home to talk and be open to suggestions. Very thankful that he got excellent guidance from his new PMS concerning DS's plans for the future. I suppose this unit was just bumping along-same ole-same ole. People get used to a routine and each other etc--becomes cultural in a way. Anyhow, would love to know all of the intricate details but got what I needed to know. It's funny, but when DS was a kid I would give info on a need to know basis-turn about is fair play He's made his adjustments, it's over with, and he's moved on.
Also, his cadre evaluations were always positive which added to the confusion. Great life lessons learned. Love this forum

 

[Marist College ROTC]

This seems like an odd situation. As far as I know, it's very difficult to get disenrolled. You have to fail your APFT, not make the cut academically, or have discipline issues.

If a Cadet is not contracted, it is quite easy to disenroll them. If a school has a contract mission of 20, has already contracted 15, and you are number 6 of 10 on the OML of remaining Cadets for your year group, you may be disenrolled without having done anything wrong.

 

[Pima]

Marist,

Confused, Adoloris's DS is an MSIII, wouldn't that be considered contracted since they are a POC?

I only ask because for AFROTC a POC is contracted, regardless of scholarship. There is no number per unit, it is if they graduate from SFT(aka MSII summer training) they are considered a POC and contract that fall.

Hence,
Adoloris's DS is 2014 class, and using your 20/15 example and 10 are left, does that means they don't contract as a POC?

When is the cut off for contracting? Are you saying that as an MSIII they could be a POC and not contracted? Or are you discussing contracting from a big picture perspective?

I know it sounds like a stupid question, but with DS2 considering this path, I am trying to understand where the line in the sand is drawn.

 

[dunninla]

Marist,

Confused, Adoloris's DS is an MSIII, wouldn't that be considered contracted since they are a POC?.

I'm assuming Marist was speaking in general, and not particularly about adoloris' DS.

I do find Marist's post interesting in that uncontracted cadets (MSI and MSII) are retained or not depending on the contracting quota/mission of each Battalion. It makes sense, I just hadn't given the whole uncontracted cadet issue a lot of thought before.