ROTC Recoupment Negotiations

[NROTC help needed]

My Daughter is a Junior in NROTC. She did not go to college with NROTC in mind. She was an athletic recruit at her school, was given a $20k / year merit Scholarship to her school and has received other need based aid totalling about $35k/year in total.

Her Freshman Roomie was in ROTC and convinced her to join at the end of her Freshman year. When ROTC paid her education in her Junior year all the way back to Freshman year, the money paid went to my daughter and to the school for the amount they each contributed.

she has now been looking to leave NROTC on a medical disqual. During this time she got caught doing something against the code, had a PRB for that. The PRB ruled that she should be disenrolled and for NONrecoupment of funds. This PRB was also convened ahead of waiting for BUMED to rule on her medical disqualification. The unit also placed her on Personal leave of absence instead of Medical leave, both of which seem to be contrary to how the situation should have been handled.

the CO has now signed his opinion and agreed with the disenrollment but is recommending for Recoupment.

my issue is that the School of course doesn't want to now give back the aid they recovered from the Navy, they want that to be stuck on my daughter. She (and I) have zero issue having her return all $ she received from this + interest. I think it's a tragedy that what I see as a cult was allowed by the school to seduce her into giving up a sweet aid package and that she would have to graduate college with an extra $120k+ in debt to satisfy the recoupment. The School also doesn't want to provide her with senior year financial aid because her disqualification was essentially "for cause."

She has 5 days to respond to the CO with a written statement that will get included with the package that goes to the Navy on the whole issue. We are being guided by counsel, but they don't seem to have the knowledge of how to negotiate or propose a partial recoupment.

any advice appreciated.

 

[AROTC-dad]

I think it's a tragedy that what I see as a cult was allowed by the school to seduce her into giving up a sweet aid package and that she would have to graduate college with an extra $120k+ in debt to satisfy the recoupment

Can you please explain to the many veterans and parents of military officers on this forum, just how can you view NROTC as being a "cult?"

 

[NROTC help needed]

Can you please explain to the many veterans and parents of military officers on this forum, just how can you view NROTC as being a "cult?"

A friend was once on the staff of a US Secretary of State, I reached out to him on this issue for guidance, I described the situation my daughter is in and instead of using NROTC, I used the word cult, it made sense to him.

But really, is that THE problem I need to address? The problem that needs to be addressed is that a young woman's entire financial future is on the line because both ROTC & the school's FA department failed to explain in her non-standard case how she was going to be responsible for the school's portion of the recoupment and would be giving up a rich financial aid package inclusive of merit aid that she worked very hard to obtain.

 

[AROTC-dad]

I agree. The perception of an officer accession program being a cult is indeed not the problem that you are here to address.

However, I am concerned that offending your possible panel of experts is not the most auspicious manner to obtain sympathetic and constructive advice. Fortunately, this is a thick-skinned bunch here.

If your legal counsel is unfamiliar with military recoupment, then you might wish to find an attorney with military experience. there are many out there.

I also believe that if your daughter is hanging her cover on the premise that this "cult" brainwashed her into giving up a perfectly fine financial aid package, it may be difficult to prove. Was she forced to sign the NROTC paperwork? How was she coerced into becoming a midshipman?

I believe that the school had every right to retract their athletic scholarship offer given your daughter changed direction and accepted the NROTC scholarship. Normally, on medical DQ's, recoupment is not pursued. However given that your DD committed a violation that warranted a PRB, it is going to be highly unlikely that you she will avoid recoupment. Partial recoupment might be worth a shot, but she most likely need to couch the argument within the medical side of the equation.

Hopefully, one of our NROTC subject matter experts such as @GWU PNS or @USNA_STEM_Prof might chime in. We also have a few barristers among the group and they too may offer advice.

My background is unfortunately of limited help here as my son is a tank platoon leader, a product of the Army version of this cult.

Seriously, best of luck to your daughter.

 

[Herman_Snerd]

Post above from @arotcdad is better quite honestly but since I already typed this, concurrently I'll just hit send.

Ahem (clearing throat sound). It must be very upsetting, but as a parent you need to be there for your child right now - recommendation: Stay focused, redirect all that petty cult/ conspiracy spewing darth vader heavy breathing finger-pointing acidity and channel your focused energy into helping your young adult get out of this with the most hope and least damage as is possible. And, stow describing her as a victim if she got caught cheating, drunk driving, underage drinking or drugs - I would not look for sympathy or others to own that error if that is the case. Empathy, sure, but my empathy won't excuse her accountability.

1. Ensure the counsel who is counseling you is specialized in military PRB adjudication and can answer your questions, or get new counsel, fast.
2. Ensure her appeal is filed on-time.
3. Confirm what she wants at this point and pursue it.
4. I would certainly meet with counsel and the school about options to not have to pay back the first year - the year her prior scholarships and your DD already paid. If the navy paid you for her share, that then give it back. and figure out the rest for years 2 and 3 - it's OK to request mercy/ leniency/ support but wash that message through a filter/ legal counsel expert to ensure you don't come across as Ted L. Nancy (author of lettters from a nut).

 

[justme]

Is it normal for ROTC to retro-actively pay for prior years of school? Especially for Freshman year when she didn't join until the end?

 

[AROTC-dad]

The problem that needs to be addressed is that a young woman's entire financial future is on the line because both ROTC & the school's FA department failed to explain in her non-standard case how she was going to be responsible for the school's portion of the recoupment and would be giving up a rich financial aid package inclusive of merit aid that she worked very hard to obtain.

I might also point out that your daughter's entire financial future is on the line NOT because of any failure of the college and NROTC to explain her financial responsibilities.

It is on the line because she violated her responsibility to a code which she swore to uphold and her commanding officer deemed it serious enough to demand recoupment.

This is why your DD's case may prove difficult to win.

 

[SOG-SA]

Never knew I was in a cult...after all this time.

(*heavy sigh)

Gotta update my SF86...again.

 

[USMCGrunt]

I am concerned that offending your possible panel of experts is not the most auspicious manner to obtain sympathetic and constructive advice.

THIS may be one of the best lines typed into this Forum in a long time. +1 @AROTC-dad

There are anecdotes buried in this forum - use the search function to try and find some recoupment examples.

My memory, while foggy, is that it is always advisable to obtain counsel from a lawyer familiar with the UCMJ, ROTC, etc. I believe I have seen some "negotiation" but the edge goes to the Government.

One always has the right to reach out to one's elected officials. These don't usually succeed but they do garnish immediate attention of the active duty military and require a very quick response. It is another set of eyes making sure that regulations and processes are followed.

Your daughter has a chance to learn from this - I hope she does. Contracts, obligations, rules, laws, and standards are real world, grown up obligations that demand adherence or bring penalties.

 

[NROTC help needed]

Can you please explain to the many veterans and parents of military officers on this forum, just how can you view NROTC as being a "cult?"

I might also point out that your daughter's entire financial future is on the line NOT because of any failure of the college and NROTC to explain her financial responsibilities.

It is on the line because she violated her responsibility to a code which she swore to uphold and her commanding officer deemed it serious enough to demand recoupment.

This is why your DD's case may prove difficult to win

I few things
1-I completely agree with the recommendation of dropping the anger issues and moving forward in a respectful matter, i have not, nor has my daughter, displayed those issues outside private commentary.
2-to clarify some things
- Daughter got scholarship $ retroactive to freshman year, is it normal per @justme question, I don't know and I don't think it matters
-daughter has developed an anxiety disorder and comes from a family rife with mental health issues that present at various generations on both of her parents side, mostly skipped me (I say mostly) but was very prevalent in my sibling and my mother as well as people on her mother's side.
-these types of disorders typically present sometime in late teens early 20s which is what is happening to her.

as for her responsibility code, when requesting to have a medical leave as she was DXd with a condition that what disqualify her with service AND RXd a medication that also disqualifies her, she was incorrectly placed on Personal LOA instead of Medical LOA. it was during this time, on leave, that she violated the responsibility code. One could easily argue that she was self medicating for her condition.

with guidance from an experienced attorney in the field of disenrollment, we navigated the PRB with a recommendation from the board for both disenrollment and non-recoupment. The CO in his final determination agreed with the disenrollment but is recommending for recoupment.

i am asking if it's possible to negotiate a partial recoupment and if that is a strategy the lawyer should be going after? if yes, who does she make that negotiation with?

 

[NROTC help needed]

One always has the right to reach out to one's elected officials. These don't usually succeed but they do garnish immediate attention of the active duty military and require a very quick response. It is another set of eyes making sure that regulations and processes are followed.

Your daughter has a chance to learn from this - I hope she does. Contracts, obligations, rules, laws, and standards are real world, grown up obligations that demand adherence or bring penalties.

I have thought of the elected officials approach and will pursue that ASAP.

couldn't agree more. There is no bail out on this coming from mom or dad. (we are divorced)

one more item - I have a connection in that my business partner's father is very connected in the Navy world. He was recently honored at a naval foundation dinner. He is good friends with the president of a different university who is career military and the university has ROTC for all three branches. It is my understanding that the NROTC CO of that university called the CO of my daughter's unit to effect a favor, seems as though that backfired.

My daughter will be doing volunteer work with various organizations this gentleman is a part of to pay back...

 

[glen]

- You need a lawyer experienced in negotiating with DOD departments re ROTC recoupment issues - get new counsel.
- make sure your DD files her response timely, as the government will use every failure to meet deadlines against her.
- focus on the details. Get all the paper work, e-mails and other communications in order for your new lawyer.
- drop the anger, it only makes your DD’s situation look desperate and defensive, which is not good for negotiations.
- expect to achieve a compromise result.

 

[NROTC help needed]

- You need a lawyer experienced in negotiating with DOD departments re ROTC recoupment issues - get new counsel.
- make sure your DD files her response timely, as the government will use every failure to meet deadlines against her.
- focus on the details. Get all the paper work, e-mails and other communications in order for your new lawyer.
- drop the anger, it only makes your DD’s situation look desperate and defensive, which is not good for negotiations.
- expect to achieve a compromise result.

Glen - and anyone else reading this, apologies if early comment came across angry or negative towards the many good people in the military. In this instance of what seems to be a non traditional ROTC route (EG, not right out of HS) it seems that someone didn't fully communicate information to my daughter. It IS possible that she didnt ask the right questions -

@glen - your last bullet point is what I am hoping to get to. I would like to see my daughter exit this situation without profiting on her education at the military's expense and at the same time not be indebted for the first 10-20 years post graduation. She will be carrying some debt as well as the tremendous learning experience she is still going through.

 

[AROTC-dad]

Glen - and anyone else reading this, apologies if early comment came across angry or negative towards the many good people in the military.

This.

This is a great way to start the day and to move forward.

I hope we have some more Naval ROTC subject matter experts who will now add some suggestions to assist.

Please remember that you are not just helping the OP and the OP's DD, but future readers (and lurkers) of this forum who may experience similar predicaments.

 

[GWU PNS (emeritus)]

Only because AROTC-dad asked.....

A couple things in the original post that confuse me….

“convinced her to join at the end of her Freshman year. When ROTC paid her education in her Junior year all the way back to Freshman year, the money paid went to my daughter and to the school for the amount they each contributed.”

The only process I know of to achieve something like this is the Side Load scholarship. Assuming application went at the end of the Freshman year, it would have been a 3 year scholarship. I am aware of no scholarship that would pay back to Freshman year when the applicant was not part of the NROTC unit.

As part of that application, there should have been an officer interview where things like propensity to serve were discussed. Not sure if that happened. There should have also been a medical set of forms which potentially identify any issues prior to signing a contract.

Next area of confusion for me…..this statement “she has now been looking to leave NROTC on a medical disqual.” Taken literally, she has reported to the unit that she has a medical issue and wants to be disqualified? She is asking to be disqualified? Or how did this come about exactly? I bring this up because timing is everything…..which preceded which? Was there a PRB issue being addressed, and the medical issue came up after, or concurrently? Or was there a lingering issue of a medical nature and the PRB issue followed afterwards. And why does that matter? Because it is a possibility that a person could seek a medical disqual as a means of covering over a disciplinary issue. No one wants to think it happens, but my experiences would say it does and it has.

Next up…..”The unit also placed her on Personal leave of absence instead of Medical leave, both of which seem to be contrary to how the situation should have been handled.”
Trying to be polite, but if you have not fully digested the ROD, you are not in the position to fully understand. A personal leave of absence is completely at the discretion of the PNS, although he/she needs to document the specific reasons for it and not simply be arbitrary. A medical leave of absence requires medical documentation, and is almost always done in consultation with the Naval Service Training Command medical staff, or BUMED. And to be removed from the medical leave of absence is not a simple matter. A PNS will often place someone on personal LOA because the scholarship can be reinstated more quickly, so it’s meant to help the student.

Some other thoughts. The PRB paperwork is typically never shared with a university. The NROTC unit may simply advise the Bursar or Registrar that the scholarship has been rescinded, but specific reasoning is not shared. One caveat to this is if whatever issue transpired was already known to the university. Example: Student becomes drunk and disorderly on campus and assaults campus police. Police reports are filed, and sent to the Unit. PRB happens, student perhaps is disenrolled, university is notified. So if the university is withholding any form of financial aid, then they somehow have specifics on the issue and perhaps it occurred on campus.


During the PRB, what documentation of the prevailing medical condition was provided for reference? And was that from a competent medical authority which laid things out clearly?

Separately from all of this, how were the grades overall? How were the fitness reports compared to other NROTC Midshipmen? It goes to the comprehensive decision that the PNS was left to make.

Lastly, in terms of negotiations for recoupment, things need to go one step at a time. The PNS decision is submitted for review by a long list of people, and ultimately it gets adjudicated at the Assistant Secretary of the Navy level. That’s when there might be a consideration for negotiation. It’s too soon to ask for some form of repayment reduction, although your lawyer can advise better. But you run the risk of acknowledging responsibility/guilt and it becomes a matter of how much to pay back.

 

[SOG-SA]

Only because AROTC-dad asked.....

A couple things in the original post that confuse me….

“convinced her to join at the end of her Freshman year. When ROTC paid her education in her Junior year all the way back to Freshman year, the money paid went to my daughter and to the school for the amount they each contributed.”

The only process I know of to achieve something like this is the Side Load scholarship. Assuming application went at the end of the Freshman year, it would have been a 3 year scholarship. I am aware of no scholarship that would pay back to Freshman year when the applicant was not part of the NROTC unit.

As part of that application, there should have been an officer interview where things like propensity to serve were discussed. Not sure if that happened. There should have also been a medical set of forms which potentially identify any issues prior to signing a contract.

Next area of confusion for me…..this statement “she has now been looking to leave NROTC on a medical disqual.” Taken literally, she has reported to the unit that she has a medical issue and wants to be disqualified? She is asking to be disqualified? Or how did this come about exactly? I bring this up because timing is everything…..which preceded which? Was there a PRB issue being addressed, and the medical issue came up after, or concurrently? Or was there a lingering issue of a medical nature and the PRB issue followed afterwards. And why does that matter? Because it is a possibility that a person could seek a medical disqual as a means of covering over a disciplinary issue. No one wants to think it happens, but my experiences would say it does and it has.

Next up…..”The unit also placed her on Personal leave of absence instead of Medical leave, both of which seem to be contrary to how the situation should have been handled.”
Trying to be polite, but if you have not fully digested the ROD, you are not in the position to fully understand. A personal leave of absence is completely at the discretion of the PNS, although he/she needs to document the specific reasons for it and not simply be arbitrary. A medical leave of absence requires medical documentation, and is almost always done in consultation with the Naval Service Training Command medical staff, or BUMED. And to be removed from the medical leave of absence is not a simple matter. A PNS will often place someone on personal LOA because the scholarship can be reinstated more quickly, so it’s meant to help the student.

Some other thoughts. The PRB paperwork is typically never shared with a university. The NROTC unit may simply advise the Bursar or Registrar that the scholarship has been rescinded, but specific reasoning is not shared. One caveat to this is if whatever issue transpired was already known to the university. Example: Student becomes drunk and disorderly on campus and assaults campus police. Police reports are filed, and sent to the Unit. PRB happens, student perhaps is disenrolled, university is notified. So if the university is withholding any form of financial aid, then they somehow have specifics on the issue and perhaps it occurred on campus.


During the PRB, what documentation of the prevailing medical condition was provided for reference? And was that from a competent medical authority which laid things out clearly?

Separately from all of this, how were the grades overall? How were the fitness reports compared to other NROTC Midshipmen? It goes to the comprehensive decision that the PNS was left to make.

Lastly, in terms of negotiations for recoupment, things need to go one step at a time. The PNS decision is submitted for review by a long list of people, and ultimately it gets adjudicated at the Assistant Secretary of the Navy level. That’s when there might be a consideration for negotiation. It’s too soon to ask for some form of repayment reduction, although your lawyer can advise better. But you run the risk of acknowledging responsibility/guilt and it becomes a matter of how much to pay back.

This is EXACTLY...word for word...what I was gonna say.

Crazy, right???

 

[GWU PNS (emeritus)]

This is EXACTLY...word for word...what I was gonna say.

Crazy, right???

Great minds think alike. And....you should see a therapist if you are thinking like me.....

 

[OldRetSWO]

Only because AROTC-dad asked.....

A couple things in the original post that confuse me….

“convinced her to join at the end of her Freshman year. When ROTC paid her education in her Junior year all the way back to Freshman year, the money paid went to my daughter and to the school for the amount they each contributed.”

The only process I know of to achieve something like this is the Side Load scholarship. Assuming application went at the end of the Freshman year, it would have been a 3 year scholarship. I am aware of no scholarship that would pay back to Freshman year when the applicant was not part of the NROTC unit.

As part of that application, there should have been an officer interview where things like propensity to serve were discussed. Not sure if that happened. There should have also been a medical set of forms which potentially identify any issues prior to signing a contract.

Next area of confusion for me…..this statement “she has now been looking to leave NROTC on a medical disqual.” Taken literally, she has reported to the unit that she has a medical issue and wants to be disqualified? She is asking to be disqualified? Or how did this come about exactly? I bring this up because timing is everything…..which preceded which? Was there a PRB issue being addressed, and the medical issue came up after, or concurrently? Or was there a lingering issue of a medical nature and the PRB issue followed afterwards. And why does that matter? Because it is a possibility that a person could seek a medical disqual as a means of covering over a disciplinary issue. No one wants to think it happens, but my experiences would say it does and it has.

Next up…..”The unit also placed her on Personal leave of absence instead of Medical leave, both of which seem to be contrary to how the situation should have been handled.”
Trying to be polite, but if you have not fully digested the ROD, you are not in the position to fully understand. A personal leave of absence is completely at the discretion of the PNS, although he/she needs to document the specific reasons for it and not simply be arbitrary. A medical leave of absence requires medical documentation, and is almost always done in consultation with the Naval Service Training Command medical staff, or BUMED. And to be removed from the medical leave of absence is not a simple matter. A PNS will often place someone on personal LOA because the scholarship can be reinstated more quickly, so it’s meant to help the student.

Some other thoughts. The PRB paperwork is typically never shared with a university. The NROTC unit may simply advise the Bursar or Registrar that the scholarship has been rescinded, but specific reasoning is not shared. One caveat to this is if whatever issue transpired was already known to the university. Example: Student becomes drunk and disorderly on campus and assaults campus police. Police reports are filed, and sent to the Unit. PRB happens, student perhaps is disenrolled, university is notified. So if the university is withholding any form of financial aid, then they somehow have specifics on the issue and perhaps it occurred on campus.


During the PRB, what documentation of the prevailing medical condition was provided for reference? And was that from a competent medical authority which laid things out clearly?

Separately from all of this, how were the grades overall? How were the fitness reports compared to other NROTC Midshipmen? It goes to the comprehensive decision that the PNS was left to make.

Lastly, in terms of negotiations for recoupment, things need to go one step at a time. The PNS decision is submitted for review by a long list of people, and ultimately it gets adjudicated at the Assistant Secretary of the Navy level. That’s when there might be a consideration for negotiation. It’s too soon to ask for some form of repayment reduction, although your lawyer can advise better. But you run the risk of acknowledging responsibility/guilt and it becomes a matter of how much to pay back.

A well formed discussion in true SWO-style.

 

[GWU PNS (emeritus)]

A well formed discussion in true SWO-style.

ALMOST as good as an Old Retired SWO......almost.

 

[GWU PNS (emeritus)]

A well formed discussion in true SWO-style.

Periodically checking throughout the day, but it would appear no further clarification is forthcoming. So, either previous answers sufficed, or my train of questions perhaps caused a light bulb to turn on and there could be some parent-child discussion as to "what really happened".