ROTC scholarship nightmare/warning/disenrollment.

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Anguswarrior112, Aug 20, 2017.

Tags:
  1. Anguswarrior112

    Anguswarrior112 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    63
    Hey all so, a good friend of mine (ms3) just recently got involuntarily disenrolled from Army ROTC not because of grades or pt but because of AR-145-1 or Inaptitude for military service as demonstrated by lack of general adaptability, skill, hardiness, ability to learn, or leadership abilities. Like, he has a decent gpa and pt score but now they are handing him a billover 100K!! He didn't do anything to break the rules, he's a quiet person and doesn't always doesn't always take the leadership roles but really? Lack of general adaptability? I just feel like this is unfair, there was no breach of contract and now they are just going kick him out and hand him this big fat bill. Honestly, this is kinda of like a warning to those who are about to enter rotc on scholarship or those who are in jeopardy of losing the scholarship, the rotc scholarship can either provide a good career and a debt free education or it can put you in great amounts of debt with a broken dream. For someone like me who was on scholarship but dropped after freshmen year with no penalty, this makes me feel like I made the right choice. I cant imagine having to pay back over 100K in a time span of 4 years!?! They also denied his request for enlistment which seems even more messed up because the army is increasing in size. There's so much at risk when you take the scholarship, and most kids who get the scholarship don't read the contract and just sign on because its "free college". Well its not free if you get disenrolled, and there's interest to for that bill so its not just tuition money.
     
    kaylar likes this.
  2. SPM

    SPM 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2012
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    5
    Hi Anguswarrior,

    Assuming this happened rather recently and your buddy is still within his appeal period, please encourage your buddy to at least consult with a lawyer who is familiar with disenrollment. He should be able to have an initial chat about his situation and get feedback on whether he has a case to challenge. If he truly did not breach his contract, then he may have options particularly if the army violated due process.

    Lawyers aren't cheap but when you are looking at having to pay back $100K, then it may be well worth the investment at least for the initial consultation. Just make sure you find an attorney that is familiar with disenrollment.

    Good luck to your buddy.
     
  3. USMAROTCFamily

    USMAROTCFamily 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    432
    Demonstrating leadership skills and military aptitude are CRITICAL skills for a future Army officer. We need to know they can lead their soldiers into battle as lives are depending on it. Being a scholar and physically fit will not cut it, if they are incapable of leading. The whole purpose of ROTC is to train future officers. This is a wake up call to all who may just be looking at ROTC scholarship as a free education only. If someone is not receptive to the coaching and training to become a leader, then there is no need to apply IMHO.
     
    mainemom likes this.
  4. AJC

    AJC Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    649
    Indeed, ROTC is not a social program, not need based, not "free".
    On the other hand, the Army picked him, so they share some of the responsibility (my opinion).
    If he is that bad it should have been evident to the point they would have counseled him to withdraw earlier.
     
    mainemom, wildcatmom and Lion19 like this.
  5. k2rider

    k2rider 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    467
    I agree with this. I'm generally pretty black & white on most issues...like all the threads this year about people "forgetting" they smoked weed and not putting that info on DoDMERB or smoking weed after getting the scholarship. I'd cut those people loose in a second. However, in this case, I put most of the responsibility on the Army. I have no problem with them cutting him loose in the situation posted by the OP but the cadet shouldn't have to pay back any money. In my opinion, all of the branches put too much emphasis on GPA and test scores when leadership skills and adapting to change in critical situations like a combat mission gone wrong are far more important attributes for an Army officer...at least that's what I'd prefer in my LT if I was in the infantry.
     
  6. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Messages:
    2,398
    Likes Received:
    2,255
    There is probably a lot more to the story... just saying.
     
    mainemom, glen, NorwichDad and 7 others like this.
  7. NavyNOLA

    NavyNOLA Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    636
    Likes Received:
    505
    There almost always is.
     
    NorwichDad, kinnem and USMCGrunt like this.
  8. ENwifeArmyMom

    ENwifeArmyMom Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    176
    Agreed! There is definitely more to the story.
     
    turtlerunnernc likes this.
  9. nofodad

    nofodad 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2011
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    255
    It's as much a loan as it is a scholarship...you pay it back with time.
     
  10. Humey

    Humey Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Messages:
    1,209
    Likes Received:
    810
    Since we dont know the whole story, it hard to comment. I read a comparable story about a guy when to UPT and decided he didnt want to be a pilot. He wanted to be reassigned to a difference position but he was eventually kicked out of the AF. They gave him a bill for ROTC and was expected to pay. In the long run the AF forgave it. In my story, he did nothing wrong except decide he didnt want to be a pilot and instead of wasting everyone time and failing pilot training, he told them up front that he didnt want to fly. It was the AF decision kick him out and not because he did something wrong. I dont see why he was expected to repay anything when it was the AF who decided not to keep him. As for this post, I feel like it is almost the same. Again we dont know all the details and dont know if this ROTC complained to him about his inadequacies . Based on the post, it just seems that he wasnt Army material and they decided to get rid of him. Assuming he met all the requirements but his commanders felt that he couldnt lead, I can understand them kicking him out, but since he met all the minimum requirements, he shouldnt have any responsibility to pay back. For example, ROTC said all you need was a C average to continue (I am making this up). A student gets a C average with a C average (assuming that exists) for leadership skills. Based on his leaderships skill they would want him to have a B GPA in his education. Since he has a C in both areas, they kick him out. Now, he met all of the required goals. However, they realize he isnt army material. He didnt nothing wrong and there is no reason he should have to return any money. Forget this guy, what happens if Rotc decides in year four that a student wont make a good soldier. Should he then be required to pay 160,000. Shouldnt the Rotc have responsibility as let him continue. I am not talking about crashing your car while being drunk in your 4th year. At some point ROTC, sooner than later, they should have realized this wasnt going to work
     
  11. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    11,714
    Likes Received:
    5,323
    I've seen exactly that happen on this very forum.... had to do with missing weight in AFROTC. Poor kid was at Harvard as I recall. You can argue with the policy, but whatever the policy is, it needs to be applied equally to all.
     
  12. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    6,631
    Likes Received:
    2,247
    I doubt it is as simple as just letting him continue until they decide to remove him from the program. I can only speak regarding how my son's battalion worked based on conversations I had with them. If a cadet was struggling they weren't immediately dismissed, rather they were counseled and both the cadet and the cadre would determine if they stayed with the program. It is quite possible that this cadet went through such counseling and chose to keep going, at some point it became apparent that counseling would no longer get the results they were looking for and the cadet was dismissed. ROTC is aware that some cadets are on scholarship and I doubt that subject never came up in counseling, but the decision to stay still falls on the cadet as long as they are meeting the minimum requirements which do include a clause that the cadet can be removed from ROTC at anytime. GPA, APFT, and not getting in trouble are just part of the contract they sign, as with everything there is fine print, it seems this cadet fell victim to the fine print.
     
  13. k2rider

    k2rider 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    467
    Maybe....maybe not. Even if he had these counseling sessions, there's no telling if he was told "we suggest you step away from ROTC but you can continue if you want to try and improve" or maybe he was just told "you need to step up your leadership skills" with no suggestion to bail on ROTC. Even if it was in example #1 and they suggested he leave, what if it was already past Day of year 2 which at that point you're on the hook anyway so not many people are going to withdraw knowing a bill is coming. In my opinion, *as the original story is told*, the Army should just eat the costs because they chose poorly. Leadership is generally a quality one possesses and not something that can be taught, at least based on my experience in over 30 years of law enforcement. If anything, I would guess the Army allowed the cadet to continue when they probably KNEW from the beginning he wasn't going to be a good fit but I'm sure they hate doing that because of the financial investment they've made. I saw it happen all the time with police trainees as well.
     
  14. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    6,631
    Likes Received:
    2,247
    Can't say that I disagree with you at all. If the story is as it was written then I tend to agree that the Army shares some responsibility and asking for repayment doesn't make a lot of sense, but as in many cases there could be a lot more to this story then what was written. So many scenarios come to mind, was he/she a good cadet up to a certain point?, did something happen that made them lose confidence in the cadet? The part that makes me think there is much more to this is the fact that they denied the cadet enlistment, I've seen cadets that did break the rules be allowed to enlist, Whatever the issue was, denied enlistment makes it sound serious.

    When my older son was at LDAC back 2011 he told us about a cadet that while in the field just broke down, started crying and refused to move or take any direction, word came back that this cadet did not commission. Younger son went to Winter Mountain Warfare School, he was one of two cadets. The other cadet got into several arguments with the NCO TACs and refused to do tasks assigned to him because "He was going to be the NCO's boss someday". That cadet did not commission either. Word was that up to that point they had both been good cadets.

    I do see your point though, if this is as it's presented then repayment seems a bit harsh, I would love to see the report from the cadre on how this was determined.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
    Lion19 likes this.
  15. AROTC-dad

    AROTC-dad Moderator 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2014
    Messages:
    4,809
    Likes Received:
    4,726
    Can @clarksonarmy or @MohawkArmyROTC , or another ROO explain just how the determination is made to financially charge back a disenrolled cadet?
     
    Jcleppe likes this.
  16. AROTC Parent

    AROTC Parent 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    188
  17. AROTC-dad

    AROTC-dad Moderator 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2014
    Messages:
    4,809
    Likes Received:
    4,726
    No dispute on the authority to do so. Just wondering what is the threshold of ineptitude? It seems hard to quantify.
     
    txpotato and Jcleppe like this.
  18. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    6,631
    Likes Received:
    2,247
    A couple questions, is this cadet a rising MS3, (starting their MS3 year this Fall), or were they a MS3 last year?

    Was he disenrolled over the summer or has school started and he was disenrolled at the start of this school year?

    Did this cadet attend any training this past summer?

    Did he end last school year knowing that this was a possibility?, and was he in communication regarding this decision over the summer?

    Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a little background.
     
    wildcatmom likes this.
  19. Anguswarrior112

    Anguswarrior112 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    63
    To those who are asking more about the story, he has had personal family problems that have conflicted with rotc. Therefore, cadre deemed him not fit for being an officer because he was letting his personal life "interfering" with rotc. Other than that, he's a good rotc cadet, never misses pt, comes to class and pt looking sharp. Just quiet and hurt on the inside. Unfortunately, I still think that this wasn't fair to him. We all have problems, just because we put on a uniform dosent mean we're a robot with no emotions, soldier or not we're humans with emotions. While this helps the army weed out who isn't fit to lead, it hurts this Cadet even more by handing him this bill which he has hired an attorney for.
     
  20. Anguswarrior112

    Anguswarrior112 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    63