Russia/Ukraine

Status
Not open for further replies.
Duly chastised. I am prone to segues. My apologies.

Back to the topic, I really would like to understand more as to why Germany continues to not be on board for the most part with NATO in regard to Russia and Ukraine.
 
I really would like to understand more as to why Germany continues to not be on board for the most part with NATO in regard to Russia and Ukraine.
Me too. I think it’s because Germany is too dependent on Russian oil and natural gas to stand up to Russia.

I’m not saying that the US does not have a role to play in Europe and NATO, But I don’t think we should necessarily be the leader when it comes to NATO’s defense of Europe.
 
It may have been Guns, Germs, and Steel. The book was very popular and the author asserted the importance of geography on societies and civilization.
You may be thinking of this book.


Robert Kaplan wrote a book almost 20 years ago:


That book served almost as a template for DS‘s career, now Army O-3.
 
A segue in @Heatherg21 fashion 😉:

I’m reading the late Colin Powell’s autobiography, which is outstanding. In the heat of the Cold War — an oxymoron, I know — the Soviets were expected to unleash hundreds of thousands of troops through the Fulda Gap and into the German heartland. Standing in the way, loosely speaking, were the U.S. Army’s V Corps and VII Corps — badly outnumbered, but armed with tactical nuclear weapons.

Commanding these two corps in the early 1980s were two lieutenant generals, both of them black men: Colin Powell and Andy Chambers. It was an immense point of pride for Powell that his country’s most important line of defense, with the power to start nuclear war, was led by two black generals. He was proud of himself and Chambers, but even more so, proud of his country.

I wish this was better known by those who call our nation irredeemably racist.
 
Last edited:
It may have been Guns, Germs, and Steel. The book was very popular and the author asserted the importance of geography on societies and civilization.
That was certainly one I've read and you're right about it. It's one of the most excellent books I have ever read. Besides learning something about geography, nutrition, agriculture, and husbandry, I also learned a lot about languages. Wonderful book. Made my son read it and he agreed.

After reviewing my Kindle library, I believe the one I was thinking of in my earlier post is "The Revenge of Geography: What the Map Tells Us About Coming Conflicts and the Battle Against Fate" by Robert Kaplan.
 
Me too. I think it’s because Germany is too dependent on Russian oil and natural gas to stand up to Russia.

I’m not saying that the US does not have a role to play in Europe and NATO, But I don’t think we should necessarily be the leader when it comes to NATO’s defense of Europe.
I certainly agree with all of that. I also think that given its past history Germany does everything it can to not appear warlike and avoid war. Thats why their troops in Afghanistan were not allowed to take combat roles. (IMHO)
 
I certainly agree with all of that. I also think that given its past history Germany does everything it can to not appear warlike and avoid war. Thats why their troops in Afghanistan were not allowed to take combat roles. (IMHO)
The bolded portion was no surprise to folks who have worked the NATO staffs and the fact was that having the Germans deploy AT ALL was a huge deal and break with the past for them. Germany was a very active participant in NATO and generally taking the number 2 or 3 role in many things until they embarrassed themselves to the alliance in the 90's. Most of NATO forces are actually NATIONAL forces, a battalion of US Army combined with a battalion of Brits with air support from the French, etc. NATO actually procured AWACS aircraft and built multinational aircrews that were at the disposal of NATO leadership instead of the national forces (see my prior mention of US and UK battalions, etc) which was deemed to be very important in the early days of a conflict when the various nations were still arranging their responses. When NATO leaders deployed the NATO AWACS to the Middle East in a combat/combat support role along with their trained aircrews the German Government pulled their crewmembers out of the planes and said that they could not participate unless there was an existential threat to the German nation itself.

The plusses and minuses of this can be argued at length from both sides but the result was that Germany was heavily diminished within the alliance and politically their leadership roles in a number of places diminished heavily.
 
Last edited:
But I don’t think we should necessarily be the leader when it comes to NATO’s defense of Europe.
The problem is that almost since NATO's inception it takes the US to be the leader. Not because of money or general mightyness but for reasons that are far more basic. In terms of National history, the US is still a relative newcomer to the party and in this arena, the US lacks the long history of disputes, wars and other issues that the European nations have between themselves.
In general within NATO the US is the honest broker. Quite simply:
To the French, we are not the Germans
To the Germans, we are not the English
To the English, we are not the French.
and so on.

Within the world of the NATO military structure, the military staffs are multinational and get along pretty well
but the US members tend to work until the job is done as opposed to the majority of nations leaving on time
every day no matter how pressing the issue. after all, there is a reason why insiders say that NATO stands for
"Never After Three O'clock".

I won't jump in on why we care about who rules Europe except to say that we have formal treaties where we have pledged to do exactly that
and our credibility as a nation is not well served by abruptly turning our backs on things that we said that we would do. I get that other
nations have done and still do exactly that but that does not mean that it is the right thing to do.

My family came here just a couple of generations ago because (cue clip from "Officer and a Gentleman")
"We Got Nowhere Else to Go" and much of the rest of the world (including the US) just watched it happen.
A big part of why there is a NATO is to try to prevent it happening again.
 
A good read from last week's WSJ

I happen to agree with it completely. This is the paranoid action of an autocrat ruling a dying (literally) nation--dropping life expectancy, brain drain and capital flight--with zero soft power. It doesn't mean he isn't dangerous.

The Putin Puzzle: Why Ukraine? Why Now?​


For the last several months, Russia has been amassing troops, now numbering an estimated 100,000, along its extensive border with Ukraine. Moscow’s hostile intentions toward its neighbor have been clear since the winter of 2014, when Ukraine’s “Revolution of Dignity” ousted the country’s corrupt Kremlin-backed president and turned Kyiv resolutely toward democracy and the European Union. Russia’s response then was to seize and annex Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula and to invade the eastern Ukrainian region of Donbas. Today’s mobilization has all the markings of an encore.

In talks with President Joe Biden and in a draft treaty, Russian President Vladimir Putin has issued an extraordinary list of demands as conditions for drawing down his forces. Among these are guarantees that NATO will never expand to include Ukraine and Georgia. Mr. Putin has also called for “security guarantees” from NATO and for the U.S. to declare that it will never put missiles on or near Russian borders. This past week, Russian officials met with counterparts from the U.S., NATO and Ukraine in discussions aimed at averting an armed conflict.
Mr. Putin knows full well that his demands are excessive. They are also unnecessary to guarantee Russian security, since there is no threat to Russia in Ukraine from the U.S. or NATO. NATO is not currently offering membership to Ukraine and hasn’t come close to doing so since 2008. The number of NATO troops in rapid reaction forces in Eastern Europe and the Baltics—deployed at the request of those countries’ leaders after Russia seized Crimea in 2014—is so small that the Russian military could easily overwhelm them; they are largely a symbolic deterrent. As for armaments, the only country to have installed missile systems of any sort in Ukraine in the last decade is Russia, in Crimea.
All of this, to say nothing of the formidable risks involved in his brinkmanship, must be obvious to Mr. Putin. So then why, over the last few months, has he manufactured an international crisis by continuing to gather troops and equipment on the border with Ukraine? What could he possibly be thinking?
Russia’s saber-rattling abroad over the last 12 months has coincided with its most sweeping domestic crackdown since the Soviet era.
Domestic political considerations are plainly a central concern for Mr. Putin and may help to explain the mercurial Russian leader’s otherwise inexplicable behavior. Even dictators have detractors who must be appeased, co-opted or erased, so it’s worth noting that Russia’s saber-rattling abroad over the last 12 months has coincided with its most sweeping domestic crackdown since the Soviet era.
im-467262

Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny, his wife Yulia (in hat) and opposition politician Lyubov Sobol take part in a march in memory of murdered Kremlin critic Boris Nemtsov in Moscow, Feb. 29, 2020.​

PHOTO: KIRILL KUDRYAVTSEV/AFP/GETTY IMAGES
In August 2020, the opposition figure and anti-corruption crusader Alexei Navalny was poisoned with Novichok, a nerve agent that the Soviet Union once developed as a chemical weapon. Two independent United Nations experts later determined that only the Russian security services could have carried out this poisoning. Mr. Navalny flew to Germany for treatment, then returned to Russia in January 2021.




At the time of the attempt on his life, Mr. Navalny was on probation, having been convicted on politically-motivated charges of embezzlement. When he returned to Russia, he was arrested and jailed on the grounds that he had failed to check in with his parole officer while he was in a coma. At the same time, his Anti-Corruption Foundation released a video on YouTube detailing Mr. Putin’s construction of a lavish villa on the Black Sea. The combination of Mr. Navalny’s arrest and the revelations in the video touched off street protests against Mr. Putin across Russia.
The demonstrations met with a spate of arrests—first of protesters, then of protest organizers. Mr. Navalny’s organization was banned as an extremist group, and leading members of the activist’s inner circle were imprisoned or went into voluntary exile for fear of arrest. Eventually, anyone who so much as “liked” one of Mr. Navalny’s tweets on social media faced the threat of criminal charges and even imprisonment.
im-467264

Protestors face off with law enforcement during a rally in support of Navalny in Moscow, Jan. 31, 2021.​

PHOTO: MAXIM SHEMETOV/REUTERS
The country held a national election for parliament in September 2021. The proceedings were so rife with fraud that even the Communist Party of the Russian Federation—until that point the “loyal opposition”—cried foul. But the state had a useful tool at its disposal: a law on “foreign agents” that was enacted in 2012, essentially for use as a bludgeon against domestic opposition groups. Three months after the election, the country’s ministry of justice used the law to force the permanent closure of Russia’s oldest human rights organization, Memorial, which was originally founded with the assistance of Mikhail Gorbachev in order to record Stalin-era crimes against humanity.
Thirty years after the collapse of the Soviet Union in late 1991, Russia has now fallen to its lowest ebb in terms of social and political rights. Even the surviving small pockets of independent media must tread carefully. Indeed, shortly after Dmitry Muratov, editor-in-chief of the newspaper Novaya Gazeta, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in October 2021 for his “efforts to safeguard freedom of expression” in Russia, Mr. Putin threatened to brand the paper a foreign agent.
How does this domestic clampdown help to explain the growing crisis on the Ukrainian border? Mr. Putin has a history of using foreign policy to improve his domestic standing when he has felt his status slipping.
Putin may hope that provoking a diplomatic crisis will win back the popularity he saw when Russians rallied around the flag in 2014.
In 2014, the diplomatic and military crisis that he sparked over Ukraine boosted not just his notoriety abroad but his popularity at home. According to the Levada Center—Russia’s last remaining independent polling agency, branded a foreign agent a few years ago—Putin’s approval ratings shot up from 65% in January of that year to 80% a few weeks after the invasion of Crimea that February. They topped out close to 90% once the U.S. and Europe began imposing sanctions on Russia, strengthening Mr. Putin’s claims at the time that Russia was under siege by the West.
Since then, under the crushing weight of the Covid-19 pandemic, Mr. Putin has seen his ratings fall back to earth, hovering between 59% and 65% as Russian society has been pummeled by wave after wave of infections. Mr. Putin may hope that provoking a diplomatic crisis (though not a full-fledged war) will win back the popularity he saw when Russians rallied around the flag in 2014.
im-467263

Ukrainian protesters smash a statue of Lenin with a sledgehammer during the Revolution of Dignity in Kyiv, Dec. 8, 2013.​

PHOTO: EFREM LUKATSKY/ASSOCIATED PRESS
Why would a dictator worry about his approval ratings? As a personalistic autocrat, Mr. Putin is most concerned with the durability of the regime he has constructed during more than two decades in power. To the extent that he believes in anything, it is not an ideology; rather, it is his own almost divine right to rule (and own) the Russian state. In 2014, Vyacheslav Volodin, who was then Mr. Putin’s deputy chief of staff and is now the chairman of the Duma, proclaimed, “There is no Russia today if there is no Putin… an attack on Putin is an attack on Russia.”
Mr. Putin also believes in the supremacy of the Russian state. Society serves the state, not vice versa—and so, logically, the person who controls the state must also control society. From this perspective, the state must work to temper domestic discontent, whether by ensuring steady improvements in people’s living standards or, failing such progress, by repression. The autocrat must calibrate just how much repression to administer to guarantee social compliance, and over the last year, Mr. Putin evidently has decided it is necessary to ratchet up measures against his critics.
As for elections, they should “look right” for the sake of regime legitimacy, but they cannot determine who governs in practice. Their outcomes must be controlled. If the talented and highly educated Russian population were allowed to decide who governs and how, its demands for rights and representation could overturn the system that Mr. Putin has built. As he said in 2020, he must act as “guarantor of the country’s security, domestic stability and…evolutionary development—because we have had enough revolutions. Russia has fulfilled its plan when it comes to revolutions.”

What does any autocrat truly fear? Being strung up from a light post by his own people. This is the calculus that brings us to Ukraine. Kyiv represents a threat to Putin’s cronyistic autocracy not because it might become a NATO member or host American missiles on its soil one day, but because it is struggling to be what Mr. Putin’s Russia is not: a free, democratic society that could serve as an example to an increasingly restive segment of the Russian population. Mr. Putin insists that Russia must be a stable autocracy—and yet there on his border sits a rebuke in the form of Ukraine, an increasingly stable democracy with a similar demography and at least partially shared history.

Most Ukrainians continue to value democracy, whether or not they are satisfied with the imperfect one in which they live. In a 2019 Pew Survey, 74% of them agreed that “voting gives people like me some say about how government runs things” (the same figure as in the U.S.), and 79% had a favorable opinion of the European Union. Only 11% of Ukrainians indicated confidence in Mr. Putin, in contrast to the 66% who expressed confidence in Germany’s then-chancellor, Angela Merkel. For its future, Ukraine is clearly looking west, not east to Russia.

SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS​

What will be the outcome for Russia from President Putin’s foreign policy maneuvers? Join the conversation below.
Ukraine’s struggle to break free of Russian influence threatens to stoke a domestic legitimacy crisis for Mr. Putin’s regime. In recent months, polls in Russia have shown that trust in Mr. Putin has declined to its lowest level in a decade. In the summer of 2021, polling by the Levada Center indicated that 48% of Russians 18 to 24 years old wanted to emigrate permanently, a desire shared by almost a third of those 25 to 39. Such expressions of discontent cannot please Mr. Putin, but they do explain why he would crack down so ferociously on independent media and activists like Mr. Navalny for exposing official incompetence and corruption.

Mr. Putin may also see the current moment as an opportune time for nationalistic grandstanding on the world stage. The Covid-19 pandemic has furnished a continuing global distraction, the U.S. is preoccupied with its own polarized politics, and the Biden administration would clearly rather focus its attention on China. To audiences at home receiving no consistent counter-narrative, Mr. Putin can present himself as Russia’s bulwark against an invasive, aggressive West. And the strategy appears to be working to some degree. Last month, polls showed that a majority of Russians (66%) blamed NATO, the U.S. and Ukraine for current tensions, while only 4% blamed Russia.

Mr. Putin must also worry about keeping the members of his own inner circle happy, lest some of them band together to depose him. Sanctions against Russia—responding first to the incursion into Ukraine, then to interference in the U.S. presidential election, and later to cyber-attacks on U.S. companies and government agencies—have not devastated the country’s economy by any means, but some of the measures target Mr. Putin’s cronies, interfering with their ability to use assets they hold abroad, pay for their children to attend private schools in the UK or travel to their villas in France, Greece and Spain. The second thing an autocrat fears is being ousted by those closest to him (witness the events in Kazakhstan this month).

im-467616

Putin confers with General Valery Gerasimov, chief of the General Staff of Russia’s armed forces, in Moscow, Dec. 21, 2021.​

PHOTO: SERGEI GUNEYEV/SPUTNIK/KREMLIN POOL/ASSOCIATED PRESS
Holding Ukraine hostage by amassing forces on its borders may have provided Mr. Putin with leverage in his effort to get the sanctions lifted. Even limited success on this front would enhance his domestic standing. But if his actions instead provoke further Western sanctions, Mr. Putin still has reason to be sanguine. He knows from past experience that markets in China, India and elsewhere, as well as investments in oil and gas infrastructure from the Middle East, can buttress the Russian economy.

As Vladimir Putin approaches his 70th birthday this year, after 22 years in power, he wants to be known as the leader who put Russia back together after the Soviet collapse. Russian TV recently aired a spate of documentaries to mark the 30th anniversary. They highlighted the chaos and poverty of the reform era of the 1990s, when people sold their belongings on the street in pitiful makeshift markets, and impoverished pensioners searched for their dinners in dumpsters. This is what the regime wants the population—especially those born after 1991—to think about the likely effects of liberalization and democracy. Better, the implicit message holds, to stay the course with Putinist autocracy and keep Russia stable, but not free.

As analysts and decision-makers try to make sense of Mr. Putin’s next moves in the Ukraine crisis, they would do well to understand that his primary vista from the Kremlin is a few hundred yards out the window and down the Russian street.
 
Also from last Weekend's WSJ.

This time by our good friend Robert Kaplan

Russia, China and the Bid for Empire​

The U.S. must hold the line against their imperial ambitions in Ukraine, Taiwan and elsewhere.

Intellectuals can’t stop denouncing the West for its legacy of imperialism. But the imperialism on the march today is in the East. Russia and China are determined to consume Ukraine and Taiwan, legacies of the Romanov and Qing dynasties respectively, into the latest versions of their historical empires. Technology has intensified this struggle for imperial geography. Great-power war has become entirely imaginable because of the reduced emphasis on thermonuclear bombs in an era of hypersonic missiles, automated weapons systems, and information warfare. Russia and China demonstrate that the struggle for empire has rarely had such nerve-racking stakes.

The notion that we can play Russia off against China—as the Nixon administration played China off against the Soviet Union—is a fantasy. President Biden’s reward for giving up opposition to Russia’s Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline to Germany has been the advance of nearly 100,000 Russian troops to the Ukrainian border area. National security adviser Henry Kissinger’s secret 1971 visit to Beijing occurred in the context of dramatic military tensions on the Chinese-Soviet frontier. China was in desperate need of U.S. help. Russia today has no such need.
True, the Chinese are making large-scale economic advances in formerly Soviet Central Asia, as well as providing security assistance to the Muslim republics there. But Russian President Vladimir Putin has calculated that China, a fellow authoritarian regime, isn’t a threat to his rule in the way the West is. (Indeed, Mr. Putin easily moved antiriot police into Kazakhstan, a place that the Russian empire settled with peasants from Russia and Ukraine in the 19th and early 20th centuries.) He has little need to line up with the West to balance against China.
Rather the reverse: Mr. Putin needs China to balance against the West. Since it is the West, in his view, that has helped install a hostile regime in Ukraine, whose border is less than 300 miles from Moscow, and would like to install a similarly hostile and democratic regime in Belarus, also relatively close to the Russian capital. What we see as potential or fledgling democratic states, Mr. Putin sees as vital parts of the former Soviet Union, a great power whose sprawling territory was based on czarist imperial conquests. While Ukraine was the birthplace of Kyivan Rus, it was also forcibly absorbed inside the czarist empire in the late 18th century, only to declare independence in 1918, before the Soviet conquest.


Mr. Putin’s goal isn’t only to restore the former Soviet Union in some form or other, but to establish a zone of influence throughout Central and Eastern Europe that approximates the borders of the former Warsaw Pact. Rather than direct rule through brotherly Communist parties—which proved too expensive and helped bring down the Soviet Union—Mr. Putin’s model is a form of mass Finlandization, in which the countries from Berlin to the east and to the southeast will know exactly what red lines not to cross in terms of Moscow’s interests.

A Pharaonic network of gas pipelines, intelligence operations, organized crime, disinformation and constant self-generated crises are the tools of Russian 21st-century imperialism. The crises of the moment are Ukraine, Belarus and Bosnia. In Belarus Middle Eastern refugees have been weaponized against Poland by President Alexander Lukashenko, a Putin lackey. In the western Balkans, Serb leader Milorad Dodik threatens to break up Bosnia-Herzegovina with backing from Russia and China. Russia’s aim in all of this is to insert itself into Europe as a power broker, the ultimate revenge against a region that in previous centuries generated many military invasions of the Russian heartland.
Imperialism throughout history has often originated from a deep well of insecurity. That is the case with Russia and China today. Just as Ukraine was for centuries part of the czarist and Soviet imperial heartland, Taiwan was a Chinese dynastic conquest until the 1894-95 Sino-Japanese War forced China to cede Taiwan to Japan. In Beijing’s view, restoring control of Taiwan to mainland China would right not only a Western depredation against a historic Chinese empire, the Qing Dynasty, but a Japanese depredation as well. Unlike Western countries, which are busy apologizing for their former conquests, the Chinese as well as the Russians take pride in their imperial legacies. Adm. Zheng He, an early Ming Dynasty explorer who sailed a vast armed fleet as far as the Middle East and East Africa, is a Chinese national hero.
If China and Russia didn’t take pride in empire, they wouldn’t be attempting to rule Taiwan and Ukraine today. For China, the return of Macau, the brutal suppression of Hong Kong and economic dominance over Outer Mongolia make Taiwan the only missing piece of its Middle Kingdom’s imperial geography. As for Tibet and Xinjiang (home to the Muslim Uyghur Turks), they represent colonial legacies of former Qing rule.
The problem now isn’t imperialism per se but the melding of imperialism with Leninist methods of control, which continue to define Russian and Chinese rule. Thus, the U.S. has no choice but to be a status quo power—that is, it need not defeat or even seriously undermine these two revisionist empires, but it must firmly hold the line against their advance. Ukraine needs not join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization or the European Union, as long as it remains independent and democratic. Taiwan needs not declare independence, as long as it isn’t incorporated into China. These are unsatisfying positions, but they are moral in the sense that they represent both U.S. values and Americans’ wariness of armed overseas involvements.
Containment is a word nobody likes to say out loud. But it works. Remember especially that it was Richard Nixon’s Vietnam-era policy of détente and tactical maneuvering—rather than an attempt to seek all-out victory in the Cold War—that preceded Ronald Reagan’s successful Wilsonianism. The Soviet Union eventually collapsed of its own accord. We should keep that in mind, given that domestic tensions inside Russia and China, though more opaque than our own, aren’t to be underestimated and in fact help fuel their aggression.

Meanwhile, the American left should focus on where empire as an ideal truly endures, which isn’t in the West.
Mr. Kaplan holds a chair in geopolitics at the Foreign Policy Research Institute and is author, most recently, of “The Good American: The Epic Life of Bob Gersony, the U.S. Government’s Greatest Humanitarian.”
 
Like @cb7893, I’m a big fan of Robert Kaplan. I highly recommend “Balkan Ghosts,” which is part history, part travelogue. Kaplan traveled along the Danube, from Vienna to the Black Sea, all the while explaining the strife that has roiled the region for centuries.

It’s not about Ukraine and Russia, but goes a long way to explaining the incredibly complex geopolitical makeup of Europe. I consider it one of the five best books I’ve ever read. Anything by Kaplan is very enlightening.
 
Economic leverage is the answer. The U.S., Japan, EU, India and the rest of the free world as a trade block can strangle both Russia and China if we stick together. Invade Taiwan = World embargo on China. Same deal for Russia. The hard work is putting together a trade block as a coalition of deterrence against the new imperialists. A lot of diplomacy is required. I don’t think the answer is an arms race with China. We can never build enough Arleigh Burke destroyer‘s or Virginia class submarines.
 
Yup. And our kids will pay for it.
Russia is pretty weak itself. I don’t see Russia extending its “imperialism” much beyond eastern Europe. Ukraine was under Russian influence for 300 years. Who gives a crap if they take over it now. I would be concerned if I were Bulgaria or Poland but the rest of us really don’t need to worry about this. I personally think China is more of a concern. Yes, we should sanction Russia for their adventurism, but going to war with them is not an option at this point. But I am watching the Packers/49ers game and am half in the bag so don’t pay any attention to what I am ranting.
 
Russia is pretty weak itself. I don’t see Russia extending its “imperialism” much beyond eastern Europe. Ukraine was under Russian influence for 300 years. Who gives a crap if they take over it now. I would be concerned if I were Bulgaria or Poland but the rest of us really don’t need to worry about this. I personally think China is more of a concern. Yes, we should sanction Russia for their adventurism, but going to war with them is not an option at this point. But I am watching the Packers/49ers game and am half in the bag so don’t pay any attention to what I am ranting.
Did you see the Bengals/Titans game?

Packers look tough.
 
A bit nippy at Lambeau. Favre weather. And I am always amazed at the bare arms in sub-freezing weather. 11 deg F.

Sorry. Ukraine and Russia. Enjoying the commentary.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top