Sad news Part 2

Could someone please let me know what is going on? I hadn't heard anything about this, but just from what I have heard from y'all, I am almost in tears. It is so sad. God be with his family.

Ashleigh
 
Pima said:
C. If we are going to live in fear...let's address the murder rate at any SA compared to traditional colleges.
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This topic has nothing to do with crime or murder or fear, and everything to do with an increasing rate of USAFA cadets (and military members in general) taking their own lives.

Description of Red Herring

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

  • Topic A is under discussion.
  • Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
  • Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.
​
Pima said:
Do we need to address it? Yes, but let's also be honest, in this current DoD budget environment, where will you take the money from to study the issue?
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Yeah, why undertake measures to prevent or study cadet suicides inside military academies or the military suicides in general.

Too expensive. How could we ever get by with one less F-35. :rolleyes:

Pima said:
It is all about how you see "succeeding" when it comes to your child.
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There's not a parent alive who wouldn't trade a cadet disenrollent in exchange for a prevented suicide. Every one of them would see that as "success."

Time to stop covering up and hiding this problem. It's not going away.

I again recall a quote from Justice Louis Brandeis:

"Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social
and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best
of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman."
 
I find it interesting that USAFA has recently sent resource information to parents of cadets through the Parent's Associations. The email lists all the counseling resources available to cadets including the Mental Health Clinic and Peak Performance Center.

Parents are even encouraged to communicate concerns for their cadet or another cadet to the cadet's chain of command. However, I find it interesting that the email does not acknowledge the existence of a specific problem requiring cadet counseling.
 
Blackbird said:
I find it interesting that USAFA has recently sent resource information to parents of cadets through the Parent's Associations. The email lists all the counseling resources available to cadets including the Mental Health Clinic and Peak Performance Center.

Parents are even encouraged to communicate concerns for their cadet or another cadet to the cadet's chain of command. However, I find it interesting that the email does not acknowledge the existence of a specific problem requiring cadet counseling.
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That is interesting. But if parents do that aren't they going to be accused of being "helicopter" parents?

I believe that until the stigmatization of mental illness is addressed that significant progress in reducing violence against self and/or others will not occur.
 
I am here and I support USAFA

Pima said:
agagles,

If I am correct that blogger has been banned from this site and other AF forums, she went as far as quoting posters on this site, in a bad way, warping it to fit her negative views of the military

The ban happened about 2 yrs ago when she came on this site and asked posters to discuss the faults of the AFA, only to quote them later on out of context.



Really? Name the cadets! She can't.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think I am correct.

Her desire is to hurt the AFA. Read that blog. Her bio:



I get that parent's and candidates wonder about support, but for me from a big picture perspective, you have to trust the AF. They are very invested in the success of every member. They are not going to ignore what just occurred.

Although momxthree may have not explained it enough why they do what they do, she has placed the 1000% trust the AFA to feel safe as a parent that if this happens, the AFA, just like your public HS will be there for them emotionally.

That is what parents need to understand, be it kissing them goodbye at the AFA, traditional college in AFROTC or OCS, their family is now the AF. They want them to succeed just as much as the parent.

It is hard to let the AF take that role, but it is something you must do as a parent if they are going to succeed.
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Dear Pima,
Somebody banned me from this site? Obviously NOT. Your mistake is an example of how false rumors get started and why America needs free speech and writers to remind people of the difference between assumptions and facts. I have not been posting here because I've been busy. In addition to the mini-bio from my byline, that you kindly reprinted, let's not forget that I am also a mother and a college math professor.

First of all, I whole-heartedly support AFA, the Air Force, and our country's defense. I am who I am today because of the leadership training I received at AFA. Part of that training warned us not to fall into "group think," to value every person's input, and to solve problems creatively and with initiative. It also taught us to seek information relative to solving a problem and to recognize that the most difficult part of solving any problem is to define it.

Second of all, I have never quoted any person from this forum without their permission. I NEVER report any single person's opinion without verifying it with many other sources. If a quote sounds like it was lifted from this forum, it is because another source gave me the exact same words. What, you think cadets never hold the same opinions or words? I want to protect and help your cadets, not set them up for ridicule.

Thirdly, I absolutely can name a number of cadets who are concerned about the overly-competitive nature of USAFA. Do you think I should? Let's refer back to me wanting to protect and help your cadets, not set them up for ridicule.

I have no desire to hurt families or USAFA. Family of the deceased cadets I have written about have written and thanked me for giving them a different (and kinder) perspective.

Now let me ask you, does a suicide rate over the last four years that is ten times higher than at a civilian college help the Academy or the Air Force? What do you think the Air Force does when its flying accident rate increases by that much? It stands down and seeks answers. When two cadets and two faculty members committed suicide at USMA earlier this century, that is exactly what USMA did -- very publicly.

Ronald Reagan said "..Trust, but verify." I trust our Air Force and our Air Force Academy, but we still need to verify that they recognize the problem is not adverse publicity, but discovering if there is a pattern behind these deaths.
 
Folks, the mods have let this thread go for some time.

But, LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC. And in a hurry.

If you must engage in personal discussions with or about other posters, use PMs or skip it altogether. If you want to talk about the general approach to mental health in this country, go to the Off Topic Forum. You get the idea.

If the thread doesn't get back on topic -- and I'm not sure there's much more to say on this topic -- it will be closed.
 
I was hoping that the thread would cover more on how to prevent another sad incident. Passing on counseling information to the cadet's parents may not be the best solution at this moment. Citing statistics between SA and civilian colleges doesn't do much but highlight a tragic trend not just in the military but also elsewhere. It has been one too many that this may also serve as an early warning to prospective applicants and their parents. The SA environment is a pressure cooker and is not for every body. Obviously-the counseling services, peer support and any existing program in place to avoid such tragedy was not enough for any of the deceased cadets. Hopefully there's a much more constructive discussion on how to identify the warning signs and identifying the risk factors and how to address the issues pertaining to the well-being and safety of our young cadets. The expectations are high and it is expectedly so but I pray that they would have the assurance that if they feel find themselves in a predicament where they're stuck, that they have many other options and are not trapped in a corner with nowhere else to go. There's always plan "B", there's gonna be another way-there's always hope. We all want them to do well and succeed but for those that are falling behind or are having difficulty, please don't resort to an irreversible and sad conclusion. There's always time to regroup, redirect and maybe find a better solution.
 
burnerafter16 said:
Hopefully there's a much more constructive discussion on how to identify the warning signs and identifying the risk factors and how to address the issues pertaining to the well-being and safety of our young cadets.
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Did you have something to contribute to this portion of the discussion?

I am a firm believer that it is up to each parent to not only keep the lines of communications open with their sons/daughters, but also to recognize when there is something wrong/different in their children's' attitudes. All of us have our down days (as do our children) but prolonged or unusual changes in what is normal behavior for THEM ought to at least get our attention. I don't think it is realistic for us to assume that people that do not know them as well as we (cadre, AOCs) are going to do a better job of monitoring their mental health. While a roommate/wingman might notice a problem; I don't think it is very likely that they are going to report a problem to the Sq Comm or AOC....unless the behavior is really, really unusual or alarming.

It seems to me we should be particularly attentive if our children are struggling or facing possible dis-enrollment. As far as I can tell, all of the cadets that chose suicide (if indeed that ever is determined to be the official cause) and those that attempted it during the last year were on the verge of being dis-enrolled (for various reasons). One poster suggested that the AF didn't have the funds for a study of suicide at USAFA. Perhaps that is accurate. However it would seem possible that additional attention (counseling?) could be directed to cadets that might be facing dis-enrollment as that does some to be the most "at risk" group. Just a suggestion.
 
aglages said:
Did you have something to contribute to this portion of the discussion?
Last time I checked, this thread was at the verge of being discontinued because it went off topic. You seem knowledgeable and have more to share with less-informed posters such as myself. At the end of the day it's only your opinion and I seek to obtain other perspectives besides yours. I thank the other posters who willingly share their views and experiences that enlighten many.
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The USAFA may be trying to walk the fine line of making sure the members of the community have access to resources in case of need, while being concerned about not overpublicizing the occurrences for fear of perpetuating the phenomenon. (This latter point may sound odd, but see below for a link to a Centers for Disease Control (CDC) release on prevention of "suicide clusters" or "suicide contagion," which gets into the issue of publicity/reporting.)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00031539.htm
 
So what happened? Are we saying it was suicide? If not that is how it sounds.

Ashleigh
 
USMA2020 said:
So what happened? Are we saying it was suicide? If not that is how it sounds.

Ashleigh
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You seem to have made a habit of going into every thread and posting "Please explain to me what happened." Read the thread and if after reading everything and the links you still have questions, ask specific questions about the issue. This expectation that everyone on this forum has the time to spoon feed you information on every thread is inappropriate. I'm not particularly fond of some freshman coming into a thread like this and saying "sounds like suicide" about a fellow USAFA member along with my spoon feeding grievance. You need to take time and read the forums, search them, understand appropriate behavior and take the initiative to inform yourself from the plethora of information already readily accessible before you flood SAF with all your posts.
 
hornetguy said:
You seem to have made a habit of going into every thread and posting "Please explain to me what happened." Read the thread and if after reading everything and the links you still have questions, ask specific questions about the issue. This expectation that everyone on this forum has the time to spoon feed you information on every thread is inappropriate. I'm not particularly fond of some freshman coming into a thread like this and saying "sounds like suicide" about a fellow USAFA member along with my spoon feeding grievance. You need to take time and read the forums, search them, understand appropriate behavior and take the initiative to inform yourself from the plethora of information already readily accessible before you flood SAF with all your posts.
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:thumb:
 
hornetguy said:
You seem to have made a habit of going into every thread and posting "Please explain to me what happened." Read the thread and if after reading everything and the links you still have questions, ask specific questions about the issue. This expectation that everyone on this forum has the time to spoon feed you information on every thread is inappropriate. I'm not particularly fond of some freshman coming into a thread like this and saying "sounds like suicide" about a fellow USAFA member along with my spoon feeding grievance. You need to take time and read the forums, search them, understand appropriate behavior and take the initiative to inform yourself from the plethora of information already readily accessible before you flood SAF with all your posts.
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+1. I post over at air warriors and they are way less forgiving. These forums are meant to answer questions, but only after one has become better informed on topics or has a specific admissions/military question.

As an aside, have you started UPT yet Hornet?

My thoughts and prayers are with the USAFA community...
 
aglages said:
Found the following article from the same author of the earlier link:

Clues a Cadet Needs Help

http://annemartinfletcher.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/clues-a-cadet-needs-help/
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USAFA excels in many areas and I have great pride in my institution. However, tackling the realm of mental health is a weak point and one often poorly adressed. The challenges of academy life and resultant pressure to succeed create situations that stress the resiliency of any individual, even America's 'best and brightest'.

In my experience Ms. Fletcher's reasons are spot on. This is a much more widespread issue than the academy has recognized...and it's not just cadets on the verge of disenrollment. Four cadets have chosen to end their lives during the 2.5 years that I've been a cadet, and many of us are tired of the consistent 'sweep it under the table' reaction from leadership. I don't have a solution, but perhaps one begins with recognition of the full scale of the problem.
 
AcademyFriend1 said:
The USAFA may be trying to walk the fine line of making sure the members of the community have access to resources in case of need, while being concerned about not overpublicizing the occurrences for fear of perpetuating the phenomenon.http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00031539.htm
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I don't believe this approach will be, or is effective in a closed military community of 4000 cadets that live in two dormitories. If a cadet hangs himself in a dormitory stairwell, how long do you think it will take for that news to spread through USAFA?
 
falcongirl said:
...and it's not just cadets on the verge of disenrollment. Four cadets have chosen to end their lives during the 2.5 years that I've been a cadet...
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Of that 4 how many were not on the verge of dis-enrollment?
 
burnerafter16 said:
You seem knowledgeable and have more to share with less-informed posters such as myself.
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Unfortunately not knowledgeable...just opinionated.
burnerafter16 said:
At the end of the day it's only your opinion and I seek to obtain other perspectives besides yours.
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Agreed and an excellent idea.
burnerafter16 said:
I thank the other posters who willingly share their views and experiences that enlighten many.
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Let's hope so, otherwise we may just have to hope that something magical occurs at USAFA that reduces these "incidents".
 
falcongirl said:
USAFA excels in many areas and I have great pride in my institution. However, tackling the realm of mental health is a weak point and one often poorly adressed. The challenges of academy life and resultant pressure to succeed create situations that stress the resiliency of any individual, even America's 'best and brightest'.

In my experience Ms. Fletcher's reasons are spot on. This is a much more widespread issue than the academy has recognized...and it's not just cadets on the verge of disenrollment. Four cadets have chosen to end their lives during the 2.5 years that I've been a cadet, and many of us are tired of the consistent 'sweep it under the table' reaction from leadership. I don't have a solution, but perhaps one begins with recognition of the full scale of the problem.
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I concur 100%.

Unfortunately, some here -- on this forum -- do not agree, and choose the "The Air Force Academy Knows Best" attitude under every circumstance.

The "out of sight out of mind" and "let's not talk about those unpleasant things" attitude is horrible, and it is costing lives.

There IS a problem, and it's at the USAFA--attacking Ms Fletcher is just misdirected anger, pride, or arrogance that they can get through it doing the same things they are doing now.

Which (clearly) are not working.
 
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