Scholastically Qualified

cga82 said:
How many of those "SQed" kids apply the following year and get accepted?

I honestly don't know. I have been instructed to tell unsuccessful candidates to attend a good Level 1 college, take calculus, chemistry, and an English composition course. Obtain a B average. Retake the SATs and get a minimum of 1200.

Each year the Academy admits 100 or so college and college ROTC students. I would imagine the vast majority of these are applying for the second time. My roommate had two years at UMd before he got in.
 
Thats too bad. Perhaps NA might think of some incentive with your above suggestion to get them back to the table. Heck, it may be a good investment for the tax payers.
 
What is the Admissions Board looking for? Why does the candidate complete multiple application sections?

Firstly, they are looking for achievement. Easy to measure. Easy to quantify.

Secondly, they are looking for attitude. This could be difficult but a good BGO can help.

Thirdly, they are looking for motivation. A bit harder. But measurable by both what and how the candidate has performed to date.

Next, they are looking for character. Teacher recommendations are important but this may only be truly measurable over time.

Lastly, they are looking for potential. Will the candidate graduate and then remain in the service beyond obligation. This is extremely difficult to measure. The BGOs attitude assessment combined with achievement to date and all the other above factors all play a part in this.

These are the factors assessed for a scholastic qualification. Remember that only a part of this is the pure academic qualification of which there are minimum requirements which, if not met, no matter what the whole person multiplier, will result in a Not Qualified score.

The Academy must also address the minimum cutoff for qualification which will result in a reasonable chance of success.

Now the fun begins. The Board meets and the result is usually somewhere around 1900 candidates who are successful based on the above grading card. There will be only 1500 offers. What happens to the bottom 400 qualified candidates beyone the primary nominees in the least competitive districts and the recruited athletes? Were they qualified academically? Yes. Were they prepared to meet the academic requirements of the Academy? Yes. Why were they not selected? They were at the bottom of the pack in their achievement, attitude, motivation, character, and potential as measured by the board.

Is this the type individual that we want to come back the following year and compete with that new group? Do we want to give them incentives? I don’t think so. Let them prove attitude and motivation by going to a university on their own. Let them increase their achievement and potential by successfully completing course work on their own. This is the character that causes the Board to give them the green cube on their second look.

In summary, if the Board was correct on the first look, only a portion of these candidates will prove them wrong and provide the necessary groundwork to be successful again.

The following is an actual composite conversation I have had with several triple qualified unsuccessful candidates:

Me: “You need to go to a good state university and take calculus, chemistry, and composition English. You also need to retake your SATs and get a 600/600 minimum.”

Unsuccessful Candidate (UC): “My girlfriend has a job here in town. Can I go to the local community college instead.”

Me: “These are Academy guidelines. It might depend on the strength of the remainder of your package but, to be safe, if I were you, I would follow their instructions.”

UC: “Do I have to take calculus. I am not very good in math and would probably flunk it.”

Me: “Enroll in State U. Take precalc this summer at the community college and you should be prepared.”

UC: “I have this neato job lined up at the beach this summer so I just couldn’t take any classes.”

Me: “Well, you will just have to establish your priorities and determine what is important.”

UC: “I don’t think I can handle five years of college. Doesn’t the Navy still have OCS? I may look into that.”

I hate to generalize, but the attributes that place at least some of the 3Qed at the bottom of the list were correctly assessed by the board the first time around. Remembering that these candidates by nature of their qualification, are capable of handling the academics, an extra year of government sponsored taxpayer paid education is not what they need. Let them prove themselves on their own.
 
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Wow! Hard to beleive that these guys got trip-Qed. This ought to make my son a little happier.:smile: Most kids get a chance at pre-calc or calc in H.S.
I certainly appreciate hearing your experiences-I just thought that most kids heading in this vain would do anything to get there even selling their parents on the black market. ha ha
 
I have been telling high school students for years that if they truly, deeply, with all their hearts, minds, and souls, want to attend the Naval Academy, they can. It may take a few extra years and some dollars out of their pocket, but they can. Perseverance can make the whole person multiplier counter look like a runaway slot machine.
 
USNA69 -- you're right -- to a point. :smile:

There are candidates who have the "right stuff" but can't get a nom. As you obviously know, candidates in SoCal and Northern VA and Maryland have the same number of potential MOC noms as candidates in N Dakota and Alaska and Wyoming. But there are a higher number of qualified candidates in those populous areas competing for the same number of noms.

For example, the 1200 SATs you mentioned would be noncompetitive for a nom in the geographic area where I work as a BGO. Here, you need at least 1300-1350. Thus, there could be a candidate with 1290 SATs, great GPA, class rank, great CFA, great recs. However, if there are 30 kids (and there could easily be 100) with a better SAT, GPA, etc. and they take the 30 (max) nominations in the state/district, that first candidate is out of luck. Too well qualified for NAPS and not qualified enough to snag a nom. If he/she lived in Fargo, the story might be different because there might not be another 30 candidates with such high qualifications.

Thus, there is a certain unfairness in the process based on where you live. The fact is that there are extremely qualified candidates in every geographic area. But (and USNA would admit this), your chances are better with lower (but qualifying) grades, scores, etc. in a sparsely populated area than in a densely populated one. I'm okay with that because: (1) it's the law and (2) life isn't always fair so best to get used to that now.

However, it's not fair to suggest that those who are triple Q'ed and don't get an appointment or those at the "bottom" of the admitted applicant pool are universally less deserving or motivated than those at the "top" of the appointment pool and/or those who go to NAPS. Sometimes true, but not universally so.
 
usna1985 said:
However, it's not fair to suggest that those who are triple Q'ed and don't get an appointment or those at the "bottom" of the admitted applicant pool are universally less deserving or motivated than those at the "top" of the appointment pool and/or those who go to NAPS. Sometimes true, but not universally so.

I never intended to make a “universally less deserving” statement and in fact only stated “that at least some” fit my definition. However we cannot forget that they are at the bottom of the list.


USNA69 said:
I hate to generalize, but the attributes that place at least some of the 3Qed at the bottom of the list were correctly assessed by the board the first time around. Remembering that these candidates by nature of their qualification, are capable of handling the academics, an extra year of government sponsored taxpayer paid education is not what they need. Let them prove themselves on their own.

Fairfax and Montgomery county Math/Verbal SAT averages are more than 100 points over the national average. NC averages are substantially below the national average and my local high school is more than 100 points below the national average.

Fairfax and Montgomery both have some of the best high schools in the United States. Do candidates of second and third generation college-graduate affluent parents lucky enough to be born in this environment deserve a greater chance of a service academy appointment? My thoughts, as a taxpaying citizen of rural America, would be to penalize them 100 points instead. They have more available opportunities. They should take advantage of them and be held to a higher accountability.

What are some of the other reasons for a SAT disparity from area to area. SAT scores will gravitate to the level necessary for college admissions for each particular demographic group. Even if SAT prep schools were available on every corner as they are in the DC suburbs, NC students would not take advantage of them. I just had this conservation with our local principal right before Christmas. UNC, it's branches, and NCSU all know the local high schools. The even recognize individual teachers in critical classes. They look at course load and class standing and rely very little on SATs. Hence, no emphasis on SAT scores.

These are the candidates that thrive in the prep program. In the past two years alone, I have had seven candidates, each with a superb package, but all with sub 1200 SATs, placed in the prep program. All are doing extremely well.

USNA is a taxpayer institution. Federal law ensures somewhat of a demographic mix. The prep program augments that mix. Farmers in North Dakota pay taxes just like the government employees of northern Virginia. Each deserves an equal opportunity if their son or daughter wants to serve their country.

Like I have stated before, wardrooms and ready rooms would be boring places if they were only inhabited by super smart bookworm liberals from northern Virginia.

OBTW, I read somewhere where you were a member of a rather large ready room. The only ones I have ever seen that large were HC. HC-2, HC-4, and HC-6 here.
 
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OBTW, I read somewhere where you were a member of a rather large ready room. The only ones I have ever seen that large were HC. HC-2, HC-4, and HC-6 here.

If the comment/question is directed at me, the answer is no, not a member of any of those ready rooms. Not a member of any ready room and never was. Not a member of those wardrooms either.

Like I have stated before, wardrooms and ready rooms would be boring places if they were only inhabited by super smart bookworm liberals from northern Virginia.

Proud to be a bookworm; love to read. Not a liberal; proud to be called a conservative. As to "super smart" -- I'll leave that for others to determine. And, I proudly admit to being "from" NoVA, though born in flyover country.
 
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usna1985 said:
If the comment/question is directed at me, the answer is no, not a member of any of those ready rooms. Not a member of any ready room and never was. Not a member of those wardrooms either.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I guess that I cannot believe anything I read on the other forum. This is a statement you made there:

"OK, here's the view from a woman who was the only female officer in a squadron of 65 officers for over 2 yrs."

Every Navy squadron that I have ever heard of has a "ready room", if in title only, of which all officers are "members". Also, there is always a mess and mess dues which implys a wardroom. Guess I learn something new every day.
 
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USNA69 said:
Sorry, I misunderstood. I guess that I cannot believe anything I read on the other forum. This is a statement you made there:

"OK, here's the view from a woman who was the only female officer in a squadron of 65 officers for over 2 yrs."

Every Navy squadron that I have ever heard of has a "ready room", if in title only, of which all officers are "members". Also, there is always a mess and mess dues which implys a wardroom. Guess I learn something new every day.

The statement I made was correct. I was in a P-3 squadron; P-3s are land-based anti-submarine warfare aircraft (i.e, are not based on aircraft carriers). P-3 squadrons have a high number of officers because each of their 9 aircraft normally carries 3 pilots and 2 NFOs. The reason for the 3 pilots is that P-3s have long legs (can stay in the air for many hours) and thus require the extra pilot so they can trade off (one can rest while the other two are flying). Add in the maintainence officers, flight surgeon, intelligence officer, CO/XO, extra crew, etc. and the number of officers was usually around 65. [USNA69, detail is for those who might not have as much Navy background as you do].

In my day, women weren't allowed in combat. I was the intelligence officer for the squadron and was the only female in the wardroom until we got a female maintenance officer. Now, of course, women can serve as aircrew. The term "ready room" wasn't frequently used in my squadron in my day -- maybe b/c our "ready room" was usually at the Wing or at the site where we were deployed. And, as someone who wasn't aircrew qualified, I would never consider myself a member of the "ready room," although I was obviously a member of the wardroom. Was even the Bull Ensign (term given to the most senior Ensign in the wardroom). :smile:
 
I have another question about NAPS/Foundation scholars - to add to the confusion -
Are they picked out of the pool of candidates that got nominations?
Can you still be picked if you did not receive a nomination?
 
Just_A_Mom said:
I have another question about NAPS/Foundation scholars - to add to the confusion -
Are they picked out of the pool of candidates that got nominations?

No. Candidates go before the board based only on completeness of their application package to USNA. Nominations are not considered at all for this.


Just_A_Mom said:
Can you still be picked if you did not receive a nomination?

Yes. One does not need a nomination to attend either NAPS or the Foundation. However, the following year they will need a nomination to enter the Academy.
 
Let me shoot this question over your bow USNA69. Can a NAPS or Foundation student get a nomination from the Congressional District or state that they are going to school at? Other words where do they get their nomination from?
 
NAPSters are eligible for SecNav nominations but they ask that the midshipmen candidates pursue their normal nominations. Again, the Admissions Dept is looking for the best possible quality for the class.

Both will be pursuing nominations from only their home districts and their home states.
 
This was a great series of posts! Much helpful info. Thanks to everyone, especially the BGO's, that provided it. It really does help when trying to figure out the way this works, and what is going on while my son sprints to the mailbox every day from now on.
 
I have a more specific question USNA69...

I have a nomination from my Senators and my local Congressman. How does that work with the rankings and such?
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Go back and read my first post on this thread about competitive nominations and primary with competitive and ranked alternates. Call your MOCs and ask which method they used to submit names. If they ranked, then ask where you were in the rankings.

If they ranked and you were primary, then you have an appointement if you are also medically and physically qualified. If the MOC submitted a competitive slate, the Academy picks the primary. All the rest will go into the national pool where they will be ranked by order of merit and selected accordingly.
 
USNA 69

My D has been determined to be Triple Q'd with both Presidential and Congressional Nominations. She is not a Primary for the Congressional. We've been told by the Admissions Office that she is eligible to compete for an Appointment. I understand all of that. However, it would appear to me that since all of the Presidential Nomination Appointments (100 max Appointees entering each year under Presidential Nominations) are usually not used in any given year, that the Academy would offer an Appointment to her (and those like her) under the Presidential Nomination as soon as she was found qualified. No? If no, is that because she still must compete against all qualified candidates (regardless of Nominating source) for the remaining seats in the class?
Thanks
 
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