SCOTUS Affirmative Action decision could affect Service Academy and ROTC

I think Congress wants a stake in the process since they are funding the whole thing. But nominations were established for political reasons during the antebellum period so.... maybe?
Got a lot of legacy stuff going on here and I can say it really riles me up when people say so and so is definitely going to get in because dad did or grandpa did. Nope, still gotta work just as hard to be competitive and even then, who knows. Six members of my family have applied (7th in progress), four have been accepted (all graduated). The two that didn't were both legacies and have gone on to be successful elsewhere. Three that did graduate weren't legacies to start with (believe me the math makes sense). I think it's perfectly fine not to get legacy credit! Life experience can still come across in essays etc so it's hard to hide. If anything they get the added experience that people are paying big $$$ to gain from these SA admission consultants. And we know that is not the kind of kid an SA wants, so ours is doing the hard part himself and we cross our fingers.
 
If one of the goals of the military academies is to balance the numbers of offers to represent those that we lead, then they should be making even more changes. There should be fewer officers who are assessed from states such as NY, CT, VT, MA, UT, ND etc. and allow many more officers to per capita to come come in from states such as AL, FL, SC, TX, AZ, NC, TN, VA, etc. as this is where a much larger percentage of our troops enlist from. There should also be more minority officers as roughly 42% of our troops are minorities. There should by 75% male officers. From a socioeconomic standpoint, history has shown that enlisted has disproportionately come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. There are compelling reasons for this group to join for a way to find gainful employment and pay for education. This trend has shifted so that those with higher socioeconomics background have enlisted, but there is still a meaningful slant towards this. So if the the number of academy appointees that are charged based upon population allows for about half of the appointees, then it would it make sense for the rest of the appointees that are happening to come from the area where there are more of our enlistees are from? Why is our country generally okay with those who are generally of lower socioeconomic backgrounds paying the higher price of their lives to secure our freedoms?
 
Why is our country generally okay with those who are generally of lower socioeconomic backgrounds paying the higher price of their lives to secure our freedoms?
Could you explain further where you are coming from on this? I understand the argument of the rest of your post, but this doesn't really seem to connect.
 
Why is our country generally okay with those who are generally of lower socioeconomic backgrounds paying the higher price of their lives to secure our freedoms?
Are you suggesting this is something unique to this country? Or unique to this period of history?
 

Would be interesting to see the demographic breakdown of individual Military Occupations.
 
Why is our country generally okay with those who are generally of lower socioeconomic backgrounds paying the higher price of their lives to secure our freedoms?
Because the nation became dissatisfied with using a compulsory draft and went to an all-volunteer system.
 
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The economies of a lot of populated states and most corporations would suffer if they didn’t have foreign born workers … especially STEM workers …. isn’t California the world’s fourth largest economy?

Why not make mandatory military service a requirement for a work visa? …. Got to make a statement against Global Oppression …
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The economies of a lot of populated states and most corporations would suffer if they didn’t have foreign born workers … especially STEM workers …. isn’t California the world’s fourth largest economy?

Why not make mandatory military service a requirement for a work visa? …. Got to make a statement against Global Oppression …
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"Mandatory military service a requirement for a work visa?" So to which nation? My wife's company has many foreign engineers. She brings one over from the UK..."mandatory military service" is required...okay, so he joins the RAF for a tour? THEN he comes to the US? Nope...by then someone else will be hired. Require US military service? Of a foreign national? Uh, NO.
 
Are you suggesting this is something unique to this country? Or unique to this period of history?
Could you explain further where you are coming from on this? I understand the argument of the rest of your post, but this doesn't really seem to connect.
Just a comment in general related to the matter after considering the idea of demographics and contemplating the implications of the numbers.
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Are you suggesting this is something unique to this country? Or unique to this period of history?
I have no idea if this is unique to our country. Does anybody else know if this tendency is the same in other countries?
 
Because the nation became dissatisfied with using a compulsory draft and went to an all-volunteer system.
I was having a conversation with my DH about this and he mentioned the same thing to me. He asked if I would be in favor of mandatory service for all and I told him that I actually think I could get on board with this concept, rather than a draft per se. In looking at this topic online, it looks like there are 49 countries that have compulsory military service.
 
I think this problem is unique to USA. I am a foreign-born US citizen from a 3rd world Asian country from a poor uneducated parentage, one of those STEM workers working in Tech. Where I graduated B.S. Computer Engg from college (not here), we take a test and in-person interview for college admissions - all by merit. Really simple, but then, we are of one race. If you can't pay, you can apply for a scholarship. Female engineers are less in number, but that's by choice. Lots of female doctors, dentists, nurses, and teachers. Lawyers are about even male/female. More males in armed forces and police. Again, those are by choice. We were raised to value education as a means to get out of poverty. We were raised believing that there is honor and reward in hard and honest work.

A common problem in Asia is called "brain drain". Highly educated Asians immigrate to the US, Europe, Middle East for work - instead of staying in-country during their prime working age. We are just not paid enough from where I come from. Sometimes we accept under-employment pay and benefits in US/EU not commensurate with our level of education because the $$ exchange rate still results to a bigger pay amount compared to what we would have received had we stayed in our birth country. And to me, USA freedom feels more real than what "freedom" means elsewhere in Asia.

I am against affirmative action. American colleges should admit based on:
1. US citizenship, reading and writing proficiency in English, no-calculator proficiency in basic arithmetic, knowledge of US Constitution and basic US history
2. Academic Merit prioritizing STEM with a timed standard test
3. For everything else non-STEM, a standard test result such as ASVAB with suggested college major and career path so students are matched to careers they can be successful in. A lot of high school grads I talk to don't have any idea what to do or choose. Sometimes they choose wrong, they take up a major they can't complete.
4. If you have low academics for STEM but want to major in STEM, the college that accepts you should put you in a pre-college class until you pass the standard STEM test. Then you can apply for the major on the next school year.
5. Improve high school and elementary school outcomes to bridge the education gap. I think the issue is failure by these organizations to produce college-ready population. The issue is NOT the standardized tests.
6. Culture change to look highly on academic achievement. I noticed in the US, people put more value in entertainment and sports and fashion and social status, but look at academic excellence as "nerdy" negative sort-of pursuits. Kids spend too much time doing extra-curricular but not enough on academics. Parents should really spend more effort making sure their children are doing academic school work well.
7. College student loan should not exceed realistic earnings potential for a given college major. I don't get how a student major in literature or history or art can have a student loan more than 100K dollars. How can you repay that loan in a reasonable time with possible jobs requiring your degree? There should be better advising on practicality of where students are spending their tuition on.
8. Elementary school government educational funds should be attached to the student, not the school. Schools should compete for students, instead of forcing students to go to assigned schools. Teachers should get continuous training in STEM and score high on standardized tests their students are expected to take.
9. All schools offer free AP classes and free two SAT/ACT testing to all junior/senior students. Free test prep classes are required starting junior year.
10. Companies that hire foreign workers are required to give 1:1 college scholarship to US citizens to graduate with the same educational level/qualification as the foreign hire. The scholarship goes to one national fund to be given to incoming college freshmen who will be required to study and work in that field. Just by merit, ability, desire, and commitment. The scholarship requires a minimum academic grade to be maintained for the scholarship to continue.
 
I was having a conversation with my DH about this and he mentioned the same thing to me. He asked if I would be in favor of mandatory service for all and I told him that I actually think I could get on board with this concept, rather than a draft per se. In looking at this topic online, it looks like there are 49 countries that have compulsory military service.
Understand that there would be a HUGE mismatch between number of bodies and need in the services. The days of mass numbers of infantry (Army and USMC) are behind us and in the Navy, where old time Battleships had over 1K to 2K aboard, we now have most ships with at best 300 or so crew and many of them very highly trained and far beyond what you could do with short time draftees. In a cumpulsory military service model, there would be several million in each "year group" which actually exceeds the size of our armed services. We don't have places to put them to sleep, much less get trained, or eventually serve. Of course we could expand our bases and training areas but understand that at a rough estimate, we'd be more than doubling the size of our current military if we used an appreciable percentage of the young men AND WOMEN who come of age.
 
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"Mandatory military service a requirement for a work visa?" So to which nation? My wife's company has many foreign engineers. She brings one over from the UK..."mandatory military service" is required...okay, so he joins the RAF for a tour? THEN he comes to the US? Nope...by then someone else will be hired. Require US military service? Of a foreign national? Uh, NO.
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There are 2 Very populated countries in the world that could do a lot more right now to fight global oppression …

UK is not the issue …. You know which countries I am talking about …
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I think this problem is unique to USA. I am a foreign-born US citizen from a 3rd world Asian country from a poor uneducated parentage, one of those STEM workers working in Tech. Where I graduated B.S. Computer Engg from college (not here), we take a test and in-person interview for college admissions - all by merit. Really simple, but then, we are of one race. If you can't pay, you can apply for a scholarship. Female engineers are less in number, but that's by choice. Lots of female doctors, dentists, nurses, and teachers. Lawyers are about even male/female. More males in armed forces and police. Again, those are by choice. We were raised to value education as a means to get out of poverty. We were raised believing that there is honor and reward in hard and honest work.

A common problem in Asia is called "brain drain". Highly educated Asians immigrate to the US, Europe, Middle East for work - instead of staying in-country during their prime working age. We are just not paid enough from where I come from. Sometimes we accept under-employment pay and benefits in US/EU not commensurate with our level of education because the $$ exchange rate still results to a bigger pay amount compared to what we would have received had we stayed in our birth country. And to me, USA freedom feels more real than what "freedom" means elsewhere in Asia.

I am against affirmative action. American colleges should admit based on:
1. US citizenship, reading and writing proficiency in English, no-calculator proficiency in basic arithmetic, knowledge of US Constitution and basic US history
2. Academic Merit prioritizing STEM with a timed standard test
3. For everything else non-STEM, a standard test result such as ASVAB with suggested college major and career path so students are matched to careers they can be successful in. A lot of high school grads I talk to don't have any idea what to do or choose. Sometimes they choose wrong, they take up a major they can't complete.
4. If you have low academics for STEM but want to major in STEM, the college that accepts you should put you in a pre-college class until you pass the standard STEM test. Then you can apply for the major on the next school year.
5. Improve high school and elementary school outcomes to bridge the education gap. I think the issue is failure by these organizations to produce college-ready population. The issue is NOT the standardized tests.
6. Culture change to look highly on academic achievement. I noticed in the US, people put more value in entertainment and sports and fashion and social status, but look at academic excellence as "nerdy" negative sort-of pursuits. Kids spend too much time doing extra-curricular but not enough on academics. Parents should really spend more effort making sure their children are doing academic school work well.
7. College student loan should not exceed realistic earnings potential for a given college major. I don't get how a student major in literature or history or art can have a student loan more than 100K dollars. How can you repay that loan in a reasonable time with possible jobs requiring your degree? There should be better advising on practicality of where students are spending their tuition on.
8. Elementary school government educational funds should be attached to the student, not the school. Schools should compete for students, instead of forcing students to go to assigned schools. Teachers should get continuous training in STEM and score high on standardized tests their students are expected to take.
9. All schools offer free AP classes and free two SAT/ACT testing to all junior/senior students. Free test prep classes are required starting junior year.
10. Companies that hire foreign workers are required to give 1:1 college scholarship to US citizens to graduate with the same educational level/qualification as the foreign hire. The scholarship goes to one national fund to be given to incoming college freshmen who will be required to study and work in that field. Just by merit, ability, desire, and commitment. The scholarship requires a minimum academic grade to be maintained for the scholarship to continue.
Well said.

Children who succeed in the USA do so because they are immersed in a culture that prioritizes academics - usually at home. Those who fail do so because they grow up in a culture that prioritizes activities and behaviors that detract from academic success.

Unfortunately, our answer has been to lower standards and present it as achievement, rather than change attitudes.
 
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There are 2 Very populated countries in the world that could do a lot more right now to fight global oppression …

UK is not the issue …. You know which countries I am talking about …
.
In point of fact, I do not know which countries you are referring to and how you think military service would serve in any way. If you mean China (PRC) as one, and perhaps India as the other...okay, fine; my original statement still applies.
 
In point of fact, I do not know which countries you are referring to and how you think military service would serve in any way. If you mean China (PRC) as one, and perhaps India as the other...okay, fine; my original statement still applies.
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… yes
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Understand that there would be a HUGE mismatch between number of bodies and need in the services. The days of mass numbers of infantry (Army and USMC) are behind us and in the Navy, where old time Battleships had over 1K to 2K aboard, we now have most ships with at best 300 or so crew and many of them very highly trained and far beyond what you could do with short time draftees. In a cumpulsory military service model, there would be several million in each "year group" which actually exceeds the size of our armed services. We don't have places to put them to sleep, much less get trained, or eventually serve. Of course we could expand our bases and training areas but understand that at a rough estimate, we'd be more than doubling the size of our current military if we used an appreciable percentage of the young men AND WOMEN who come of age.
Yes, there would certainly be a mismatch, and from an intellectual standpoint I know this would not happen in reality. I suppose it is more of the conceptual idealism that I like.
 
As I read all of the previous comments I feel compelled to throw my two cents in. I can speak as someone who is older and grew up in Memphis, TN during the 60’s. I witnessed strikes, unrest, a speech by Dr. King, saw segregation first-hand, and also what the effects of bussing students (in the name of achieving equal opportunity) did. At some point we, as a society, have to put everyone on an equal playing field! We cannot guarantee equal upbringing or economic life style. We, as a country, can guarantee equal opportunity. To me this means each person judged on their abilities not their color or sex. You should not be discriminated against for race, sex, or any other condition of birth nor should anyone be elevated over another for the same. It also sends the wrong message… “you can‘t make it on your own merits but need this artificial leg up.”

From my military perspective, I served as a Marine (both NCO/Sgt. and officer) and didn’t care what color you were (we were all green!) if you could do the job. I wanted the best whatever their color or ethnic origin. The SAs, ROTC, and Officer Programs of all services should want the best - both for the good of the service and because those serving deserve it! It would be a disservice to have anyone less qualified than the very best to be elevated to that opportunity for any condition of birth, race, sex over another. I want admissions committees of SAs making decisions based on merit and qualifications not arbitrary quotas. That is not to say there should not be outreach to encourage highly qualified applicants from diverse segments of the community to apply, but once they apply all should be judged equally on merit and accomplishments.
 
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