SEALs/Kings Point?

''.... Oh and someone better tell Captain Robert Johnson about this active duty thing. ...

I'm pretty sure that as the "Director of Admissions" and USMMA's leading "Recruiter" Capt. (or should I say Col. Retired) Johnson has his own reasons for how he presents and employs USMMA's "Options and Opportunities" when he exhorts it's virtues. - #Just Sayin'
 
U.S.-flag deep sea shipping is just about dead and is not coming back, at least to anything close to what it once was. The reasons for that and what to do about it are numerous, but for now, that's not where the jobs are. Sorry, but that's the reality.

Then close it. The state maritime schools can supply enough to go around, and those kids are paying for their school & training, not getting it via the taxpayer.

If KP has indeed lost its primary mission due to a lack of need, it has no use to us anymore. We don't need it to serve as a satellite campus of the 4 military academies.

Again, it's a debate worthy of a separate thread.
 
thread turned bad....

Then close it. The state maritime schools can supply enough to go around, and those kids are paying for their school & training, not getting it via the taxpayer.

If KP has indeed lost its primary mission due to a lack of need, it has no use to us anymore. We don't need it to serve as a satellite campus of the 4 military academies.

Again, it's a debate worthy of a separate thread.

and this is why people hate the Forum... and it has such a bad reputation. You have someone asking a simple ? about seals, and it turns into this. Shame on you guys.
 
According to the statistics reported by the state maritime schools, they are primarily graduating deck majors, not engineers. In fact, engineers graduating from KP usually have at least 5 job offers since the industry is desperate for engineers and are paying them very high starting salaries. If there were a glut of engineers, these jobs offers and salaries would not be happening. At least 50% of KP's graduating class are licensed engineers. One state school is actively recruiting students to be engineers since they are having trouble attracting students to major in engineering. Get rid of KP and there would be even less engineers for the industry.

In addition, students graduating from the state schools do not have to pass the Coast Guard exam to graduate and do not have to serve in the Naval Reserve, both requirements to graduate from the USMMA. Far less than 50% of the graduates from the state schools pass the Coast Guard licensing exam, deck or engine.

All this is published and can be confirmed.
 
Now that we have officially and completely hijacked this thread ...

In addition, students graduating from the state schools do not have to pass the Coast Guard exam to graduate and do not have to serve in the Naval Reserve, both requirements to graduate from the USMMA.
We can get rid of the whole Navy Reserve (It hasn't been the Naval Reserve for almost 10 years) thing while were at it. The SSO is mostly a program in search of a mission and even they are losing track of their maritime roots. Just look at the new pin, its basically a morphing of pilot wings and a SWO pin. When was the last time anyone was called up to man a ship for a major sealift?

Far less than 50% of the graduates from the state schools pass the Coast Guard licensing exam, deck or engine.
Thats a little bit of a misleading statement. Less than half pass because less than half even take the exams. Most degree programs at the state schools do not include a license track.
 
and this is why people hate the Forum... and it has such a bad reputation. You have someone asking a simple ? about seals, and it turns into this. Shame on you guys.
This forum is tame. Post this same question on gCaptain and watch what happens.

The OPs questions have been answered by multiple people.
 
Look folks- this forum is not for debating the overarching mission of these schools. If you wish to do so, then start another thread in the off topic forums and knock yourself out. This OP asked a straight forward question and deserves a straight forward fact based answer to his question - not some philosophical debate about the roles and missions of KP or any other school.
 
Actually this seems like the appropriate forum, just not the appropriate thread. The purpose of USMMA isn't really off topic in the USMMA forum. These are very real questions, not only held on SAF, but at schools and in Congress.
 
What it boils down to, is if you want to receive a high quality education, you love the sea, and want to grow in maturity, investigate the options USMMA has to offer. Yes there is a service commitment after graduation. After all USMMA is a service academy. It is definitely worth the time to investigate. You may not be able to receive the information you are asking on this forum. A call to admissions may be a better option.
 
Then close it. The state maritime schools can supply enough to go around, and those kids are paying for their school & training, not getting it via the taxpayer.

If KP has indeed lost its primary mission due to a lack of need, it has no use to us anymore. We don't need it to serve as a satellite campus of the 4 military academies.

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but...

There is no lack of need for mariners in general. There may not be much of a need in the deep sea fleet, but other areas need people and will need them for a long time as there is a glut of a lot of experienced mariners close to retirement. This shift of focus is not a failure of the mission of the USMMA. This is where our economy needs the manpower and the education (remember, we're talking about our domestic energy production here). I'd say a good 2/3's of my class (that is sailing) is working in this sector. Whether the state academies could keep up with this demand on their own is debatable but as long as their grads are not required to sail or even get a license (and KPers are), there is no guarantee that they could.

I assure you, these are not "lesser jobs" either. Look what's being built in the yards now. The vessels are becoming more sophisticated, the regulations and public's scrutiny tighter, and the need for educated, smart mariners is high (especially on the engineering side). The wages are very good too, higher than deep sea in many cases.

To be blunt, deep sea ships are easy to operate in comparison, at least on the deck side (especially dry cargo). A 3/M on a container ship is a glorified bus driver, with his hand held at almost everything he does. A mate on a tug or OSV is expected to handle himself on his own in almost everything he does. In the event a major sealift is necessary, they will have no problem tapping into these people to provide the manning and I'd dare say that anyone who has any experience with ships (even if just from their cadet days) would have no problem jumping into one from an OSV or tug but the reverse is not necessarily true.

I'll say it again - this antiquated notion that KP exists somehow to only produce mariners who are deep sea officers will be its destruction. Adapting to serve the needs of the industry today (with little detriment to the "emergency plan" of needing deep sea officers someday) is better for the school, its grads and its justification for continuation. Telling the kids that deep sea is gone so you might as well go AD is the exact opposite.

Apologies for the thread drift, but the OP's question was answered early on.
 
Not to keep beating a dead horse, but...

There is no lack of need for mariners in general. ... Look what's being built in the yards now. The vessels are becoming more sophisticated, the regulations and public's scrutiny tighter, and the need for educated, smart mariners is high (especially on the engineering side). The wages are very good too, higher than deep sea in many cases.

To be blunt, deep sea ships are easy to operate in comparison, at least on the deck side (especially dry cargo). ...

I'll say it again - this antiquated notion that KP exists somehow to only produce mariners who are deep sea officers will be its destruction. Adapting to serve the needs of the industry today (with little detriment to the "emergency plan" of needing deep sea officers someday) is better for the school, its grads and its justification for continuation. Telling the kids that deep sea is gone so you might as well go AD is the exact opposite.

Apologies for the thread drift, but the OP's question was answered early on.

With the thread drift pretty complete I'd like to enter this fray again.

Now you are talking my language - earlier someone said "While Kings Point is primarily a maritime school, it ..." KP isn't "primarily a maritime school", it's entirely a maritime school. And KP2009er is dead nuts on, he answered the OP's question with the correct factual answer with his first post in this thread and did so politely and succinctly. His last post is also polite and direct - the US Maritime industry is NOT a one dimensional industry that only provides maritime tansportaion service across the oceans, etc.

Further, I strongly agree with Luigi's posts and they are very infomred. If you follow the testimony of the varous approprations committees here in DC, and talk about federal budget realities to Congressional Staffers, the importance of USMMA having AND SERVING a UNIQUE mission is critical to it's ongoing viability. That's why so many interested USMMA stakeholders had and continue to have such a focus on the current strategic plan.

Just because USMMA graduates can AND DO go active duty and generally do very well, when they choose that path to fully satisfy their service obligation, doesn't lessen the need for the majority of USMMA graduates to satisfy that obligation be serving in the Maritime Industry in order to highlight it's unique reason for bing. The industry and its needs will evolve and change over time, for example this year the major unions told MARAD that it should not grant sailing waivers to Engineering graduates with 3rd A/E liscences as they absolutely have jobs for them - and as far as I know every engineer who wants to sail is already doing so. That's the reason for the USMMA - to provide leaders and key skills to the maritime industry, and as noted the manyof State Maritime Academy graduates do not choose a track that results in a Mariniers Lisence.

As far how many is the right % of graduates to go Active Duty before folks question the reason for USMMA vs. more ROTC scholarships and larger ROTC programs or USNA/USMA/USAFA or USCGA classes, my opinion and the genral anectdotal number bandied about is indeed 25%. It sure seems like the questions at the appropriations hearings the MARAD Administrator and Deputy Administrator get become more pointed and "testy" when the number is significantly higher. That was certainly the case after the Class of 2010 had 33+% when the GFY2012 budgets were being questioned and discussed in September of 2011. If you're a total DC policy wonk/budget geek some of those discussions are public record.

None of what I am saying should be construed as being negative about folks who choose to go Active Duty, I am not in any way attacking that, nor am I against graduates choosing to do so after they attend USMMA and explore the maritime industry options as part of their sea year. Active Duty is absolutely a valid way to meet your commitment upon graduation and as has been noted many Kings Pointers serve and do so both valiantly and in a manner that reflects very positively on the preparation they recieved at the Academy. That said, it's not USMMA's primary or unique purpose to graduate Active Duty O-1's for any particular service. Of course part of the unique mission is graduating as an Ensign, USNR in the SSP is indeed part of the mission and purpose and serving in the USNR after graduation is indeed part of the "traditional" obligation.

Finally, this thread might not have or continue to be the right place to discussion the mission but each forum seems like a straightforward, appropriate place to post questions about and discuss the topic. And the third, fourth and fifth posts in response to the OP's original question directly answered the questions and provided current information, so has there really been any harm in having the discussion here?
 
Last edited:
Hey everybody,
I just wanted to know if there is a SEAL training program at USMMA, and how many midshipmen attend the program? And more importantly, does the USMMA have a quota of SEAL candidates (for example they could nominate 10 people)? Thanks.

Hi. My son was accepted to USMMA. He visited for overnight after acceptance. He liked it but his focus was on being a SEAL. He spoke with lots of individuals at USMMA about going from there to BUD/S. It has been done. There is a small training cadre at USMMA and when my son visited I believe there were 10 to 15 cadets who were regularly training together for BUD/S. This is largely on their own time. I believe the USMMA swim coach is involved, who is a very nice guy and helpful. Contact him.

My son enlisted in the Navy instead of USMMA or other Academy or ROTC, for his own reasons. Just know that from everything he could find out, the easiest way to a slot at BUD/S is through enlisted SEAL contract. He started one BUD/S class and finished Third Phase with another BUD/S class. I believe 2 USMMA grads were in his class and were performance dropped. I prefer not to say anything more. Be super committed. Good luck.
 
Hi. My son was accepted to USMMA. He visited for overnight after acceptance. He liked it but his focus was on being a SEAL. He spoke with lots of individuals at USMMA about going from there to BUD/S. It has been done. There is a small training cadre at USMMA and when my son visited I believe there were 10 to 15 cadets who were regularly training together for BUD/S. This is largely on their own time. I believe the USMMA swim coach is involved, who is a very nice guy and helpful. Contact him.

My son enlisted in the Navy instead of USMMA or other Academy or ROTC, for his own reasons. Just know that from everything he could find out, the easiest way to a slot at BUD/S is through enlisted SEAL contract. He started one BUD/S class and finished Third Phase with another BUD/S class. I believe 2 USMMA grads were in his class and were performance dropped. I prefer not to say anything more. Be super committed. Good luck.

I appreciate all the advice. Regarding BUD/s, was he given a slot as soon as he commissioned - or did he have to serve a tour in the fleet? If you don't feel comfotable talking about this, you could PM me.
 
Not to keep beating a dead horse, but...

There may not be much of a need in the deep sea fleet, but other areas need people and will need them for a long time as there is a glut of a lot of experienced mariners close to retirement.

Well since you addressed me via the quote, I will respond.

Answer this - how does having an increase of grads (30%+?) going to active duty military, instead of fulfilling the primary mission of the Merchant Marine Academy (sailing as licensed mariners on US flagged vessels) help this shortage?

Further, I strongly agree with Luigi's posts and they are very infomred.

Thanks, Japerdog.

I also continue to be amazed by those who think that increases of grads going active duty (operating KP as a satellite campus of the military academies) is a good thing rather than a problem that will hasten it's demise.
 
Darn Luigi there you go again being logical.

"I also continue to be amazed by those who think that increases of grads going active duty (operating KP as a satellite campus of the military academies) is a good thing rather than a problem that will hasten it's demise."
 
According to KP's Dean Dr. Kumar, 23% of the Class of 2012 went active duty, far less than the 30%+ from other years.

Also, to clarify, less than 50% of most state school grads are taking the Coast Guard licensing test. Of that percentage, less than 50% are passing the exam. Of the amount passing, far less than 50% are engineers. Therefore, the state schools alone are not meeting the need for engineers in the industry by a long shot as evidenced by the fact that engineers graduating from KP (and those licensed engineers from the state schools) are getting multiple and very lucrative job offers - supply and demand 101.) Without Kings Point, the industry would have a very hard time finding enough engineers.

The state schools know they have a problem with getting and retaining engineering majors, especially since there are other choices less rigorous for many of the students. In addition, many of the state schools are trying to replicate the KP model - sending students out on commercial shipping vessels vs. the school ship and requiring more participation in regimental life, which does help with leadership training - programs already in place at Kings Point.
 
According to KP's Dean Dr. Kumar, 23% of the Class of 2012 went active duty, far less than the 30%+ from other years.

Also, to clarify, less than 50% of most state school grads are taking the Coast Guard licensing test. Of that percentage, less than 50% are passing the exam. Of the amount passing, far less than 50% are engineers. Therefore, the state schools alone are not meeting the need for engineers in the industry by a long shot as evidenced by the fact that engineers graduating from KP (and those licensed engineers from the state schools) are getting multiple and very lucrative job offers - supply and demand 101.) Without Kings Point, the industry would have a very hard time finding enough engineers.

The state schools know they have a problem with getting and retaining engineering majors, especially since there are other choices less rigorous for many of the students. In addition, many of the state schools are trying to replicate the KP model - sending students out on commercial shipping vessels vs. the school ship and requiring more participation in regimental life, which does help with leadership training - programs already in place at Kings Point.

I feel the need to comment. Which I promised myself I wouldn't but oh well.
First State Schools have an almost 100% pass rate when it comes to license. The State Schools only allow those that will pass the license to take the license.
Second license tracks at the State Schools is at an all time low of 57% or at least of as 2009.
Third State Schools are using commercial shipping because it's cheaper and more cost effective for the school than cramming everyone on a training ship. Plus it's free money because the get to charge the student for the privelage of going on a commerical ship as part of their tuition.
Fourth the regiment at the state schools is very minimial, example Maine and CMA (Causual Maritime Academy), Texas (Every Aggie I know went there because the regiment is almost nothing, GLMA (People can have dreads there) with the exception of Mass and for whatever reason the feel like they need to out do KP.
If Kings Point was to close down, the State Schools would fill the void, your not looking at a huge number of Kings Point Engineering graduates (roughly 100 and how many of those actually go to sea, about half).

You can see the numbers here
http://img.marinelink.com/img/Maritime Professional/2009AcademyGrads.html

You can read the following article here.
Licensing Rates for U.S. Maritime Academy Graduates Declining

Only Kings Point and Michigan boast 100 percent performance; overall licensing rate for state academies falls to 59 percent. Graduation and mariner licensing data released this summer by the U.S. Maritime Administration has revealed a worrisome trend at the nation's six maritime academies. According to spreadsheets provided by MARAD in 2007 and 2008, the cumulative licensing rate for maritime academy graduates has fallen to just 59 percent for this year's classes. Last year, that percentage was closer to 61 percent. The trend flies in the face of a critical worldwide shortage of qualified mariners and gives every indication that the problem will only get worse in the near term. Only two academies, the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy at Kings Point and the Great Lakes Maritime Academy boast 100 percent of their graduates in a license track, with Texas A&M University at Galveston not far behind. Even with 13 more total graduates (856) in this calendar year, the total number of those choosing Coast Guard certification fell by 12 individuals. MARAD hopes to improve on those numbers, partly by increasing (effectively doubling) Student Incentive Payments (SIP) to cadets. That financial aid comes with caveats, however. Students in the SIP Program receive quarterly financial subsistence for a maximum of 4 years. In exchange for financial educational assistance the SIP students incur a national service obligation. Maritime Service compliance System (MSCS) track students participating in the SIP Program must then fulfill their national service obligation. The migration of curriculum at many of the maritime academies has occurred gradually over the years, partly as a way to survive in an era (now past, apparently) when ship billets were scarce and graduates found it increasingly difficult to go to sea for a living. As the need for mariners has once again ramped up, however, the corresponding migration back into license programs has not kept pace. Instead, shoreside programs such as stationary powerplant operations and industrial safety careers are gaining increasing popularity. Kings Point cadets (211 this year), of course, all earn a license, a degree and take a reserve commission in exchange for their four year education. Only months after graduation ceremonies were held on campuses across the nation, approximately 85 percent of 2008 graduates with merchant marine licenses from the United States Merchant Marine Academy and six state maritime academies have found employment afloat in the maritime industry or in the U.S. military, according to data released by the Maritime Administration today. "This data indicates that the job market for merchant marine officers remains robust. There is a growing, worldwide demand for fully-trained merchant marine officers and licensed mariners. Excellent training combined with ongoing global trade expansion will continue to make the graduates of U.S. maritime colleges among the most qualified and employable mariners in the world," said U.S. Maritime Administrator Sean Connaughton The Maritime Administration operates the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy and provides funding and training ships to Maine Maritime Academy, Massachusetts Maritime Academy, Texas Maritime Academy, California Maritime Academy, Great Lakes Maritime Academy, and the State University of New York Maritime College. MarEx readers can view the breakdown of each of the state Academies by clicking

Or Here
http://www.maritimeprofessional.com...seph-Keefe/May-2010/That-Sinking-Feeling.aspx

I will say this, Kings Point need to focus on it's core mission and that is producing merchant mariners for the US market. Which as many posters have said includes tugs/offshore/Deep Sea and Drilling.

It's sad to see the State Schools making the change and Kings Point is doing little to make the adjustment.

A new grad who gets the training for DP can get a job starting out at $110,000 a year working one month on and one month off. Within two years upgrade to second mate and Sr. DPO and make $165,000 year and by the time they are 30 be an OIM making $220,000.
Or an engineer getting a job as a subsea engineer sailing on a drillship and with in 5 years be making $250,000 a year working one month on and one month off. Kings Point should be on the forefront of this. I'm not saying because of pay, but this is the future of the US Merchant Marine. I put in pay because most kids have no idea the opportunities that are lay ahead for them and are told by a staff that hasn't been out to see in 30 years that sailing is a Lykes Lines ship to Africa. The belief that you get to see the world is myth. Spending 6 hours in a remote port is not seeing the world or sitting on a prepo ship in Deigo is not seeing the world, or running a Jones Act tanker from Garyville to Tampa or PE is not seeing the world. If your going to be gone you might as well get paid well for it.
 
Ok, going to step out of my lane for a second to ask what might be a stupid question: What is the rationale for allowing USMMA graduates to go active duty?

I don't know very many officers from USMMA (of any branch), but I'm sure they're all competent individuals. I guess what I'm asking is what the benefits are to both USMMA and the services to have anyone go AD.
 
Well since you addressed me via the quote, I will respond.

Answer this - how does having an increase of grads (30%+?) going to active duty military, instead of fulfilling the primary mission of the Merchant Marine Academy (sailing as licensed mariners on US flagged vessels) help this shortage?

It doesn't and I'm not for that...which is why this trend of 30%+ going AD bothers me and I believe harms the school.

But you made the assumption that since deep sea is dead, there is no need for mariners and KP should be shutdown. That is not true - there are plenty of sailing jobs out there now and on the bubble... just not in deep sea, and the merchant marine (contrary to popular belief) is more than just the deep sea fleet.
 
I appreciate all the advice. Regarding BUD/s, was he given a slot as soon as he commissioned - or did he have to serve a tour in the fleet? If you don't feel comfotable talking about this, you could PM me.

Hi. I hope I didn't sound like a jerk, it's just better not to say much publicly I am told. He enlisted (not commissioned) directly to BUD/S under an enlisted SEAL contract. "Directly" means wait until your slot opens, which could be as much as one year+ from when you sign contract to when you report for Basic at Great Lakes. You go from Basic to BUD/S Prep to BUD/S Orientation to BUD/S to SQT to Teams. Whole cycle takes about 2 years or so after you start Basic, as I understand it. Just be aware that many guys start at Basic with SEAL contract, but many don't make it through and then they are put out in the fleet in a job that is open and that the Navy wants them in -- not necessarily the job they want to be in.

If being a SEAL is your top priority, find a SEAL mentor in your area and contact them, that is what they are there for. Go to sealswcc.com and go to "Become A SEAL" tab and go to "Find SEAL Mentors" subtab to find a mentor in your area (I don't have high enough post count to link). Even if you want to commission as an officer to be a SEAL, that is where I would probably start acquiring information about going to BUD/S.

I hope the foregoing is helpful. My son asked lots and lots of questions of many different people before he decided upon the path that he did. He could have tried to go officer route to SEALs, through USMMA or other officer routes, but he chose to enlist as a sailor in the Navy under a SEAL contract in order to have a guaranteed chance to start at Basic with a BUD/S slot and not worry about whether he could get a slot after becoming an officer. His mother and I weren't too happy but you guys have to figure out where your passion and drive is. The fact you are seriously inquiring into becoming a SEAL is a credit to you.
 
Back
Top