SEALs/Kings Point?

I believe KP is a fine institution and like everything in life there will always be some that will speak negatively for various reasons.

For me this is about as a country our children are inheriting a huge debt. We are getting to the tipping point unless we become realistic regarding expenditures.

I get that they have helped out for things like 9/11 and Sandy, but so did other branches. Our country came together to do whatever they could in any and every manner. The question is financially as a taxpayer is the ROI worth the investment, and honestly I haven't heard that if the USMMA converted to a "traditional" college system that it would impact the country. Your kid wants to work for Maersk, great, than why should taxpayers pay for your kid's dreams, and not you or them to attend a college that does that? USCGA, USMA, USAFA, and USNA demands 100% of their grads to serve AD for at least 5 yrs in the military, not 65%, thus it would impact our country from a personnel perspective if 65% of them could walk and work for Lockheed, Grumman, SAIC. Raytheon, etc. like USMMA grads can do upon graduation.

All I keep hearing is free education or starting salaries are 110K and 220K by 30. Go over to the SA forums and you hear/read I want to serve. My perspective can be wrong. I harbor no issue with anyone saying that at all, afterall, as a parent we want our kids to have the best, and there is nothing wrong with doing this since it exists for a reason.

Is 40 million a yr best served spent on KP, or is it best served by placing it in the pot to pay for other educational programs like Teach for America, or Head Start? I would think they would touch more than 400 kids per yr.

That's my point. It isn't about the quality of the education, it is about getting the best bang for the buck using tax dollars.

KPEngineer,

As far as the 87K and 20K tax free, it depends where you live. In Goldsboro NC, it would not be 20K. Additionally, only O5's below zone in the AF hit that at 14 yrs. Typically pinning on O5 is 16 yrs. To make O5 you will need a Master's degree in the AF which the AD member pays at least 25% of the tuition, all of the book costs, and owes 3 more yrs AD. You will have most likely moved by that time at least 6, 7 times at that time, and even with DLA and TLA, you will always be out of pocket. Now compare that to a 36 yo, that has a Masters degree, and is considered sr. mgmt., with 14 yrs of experience, how much do you think they are making per yr? I am betting
it is more than 100K in a specialized field. Afterall, you and others have reminded everyone here that the 22 yo right out of KP, without a Masters degree and no career experience are making more than an O5 with 14 yrs.

Let's remember their peers that attend other sister services and it costs the same amount of 415K to educate them, they will be 37.

Sure, they didn't choose wisely, they could have gone to KP and make that salary at 22, but the fact is it my tax dollars that allowed it. As a taxpayer I have a right to be informed and make a decision whether I believe those dollars are being spent wisely.

MumKP,

Yes sister services do pay stipends, and they also pay it to ROTC cadets/mids. AFROTC does not pay until the cadet is "contracted" which can be as a freshman, sophomore or jr., depending on if they are on scholarship or not. A freshman is paid 250, soph 350, jr 450, and sr. 550. It is only while they are in school. Basically over 4 yrs it is 15K. ROTC scholarship only cover tuition, no room and board. Their book stipend for AF is 900 a yr., 85% of scholarships are STEM, and anyone that has a kid in those majors know that 900 covers 1 semester. Upon graduation they owe 4 yrs AD, and many must wait for months before going AD, without pay or health insurance.

Again, why the question comes in as a taxpayer if spending 40 million a yr to educate, while 65% do not go military, aka 25 million to educate that portion with no return is worth the cost today. In total for 95% of AFROTC scholarship cadets, it is less than 90K and taxpayers get 4 yrs of them serving. Gojira's DS owed 143K, cut 6 weeks before commissioning because they were 8 lbs overweight. He will be paying back that 143K for yrs. because he won't serve in the Navy, and he even was willing to pay it back as an enlisted member, but the Navy said no, we want the check. I hope you can see why as a taxpayer seeing how the Navy is collecting, it bears the question if the military is cutting and collecting, is KP financially a wise decision? It is not personal, it is business. Keeping money in my wallet and not in the govts is my business. Every penny I pay, is a penny that I can't use for my family. I am not fortunate enough to have unlimited wealth, so the pennies do matter everyday. Do I live a nice life? Yes, but I do because every penny I spend counts.

It is not about the quality of KP's education, it is all about the cost. This to me is not about closing KP, it is learning why we should keep it open. For the last time, I have yet to read why it should stay open. 9/11 and Sandy, were 11 yrs apart. 40 million a yr., and that means 220 million per event if that is the defense. Not a good ROI. Luigi asked about the cost of the 35, and should we reduce or cancel due to that cost. I can guarantee you that the 35's will be utilized more than 2X in 10 yrs. That cost is probably equivalent to one squadron of 35s. Squadrons that will fly CAP for the g forbid next 9/11, will be in the air defending DC within 45 minutes.

Like I said it all about cost and benefits.
 
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KPMum2012 said:
No, she won't be making $110K - maybe half that depending on how busy she wants to be and how much over time she works. But she chose to work for NOAA for other reasons.
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It is great that she is following her passion. She is working at below market wages up front for the gov't and still on reserve. That is fair and understandable. The same would apply to mid who goes AD

tankercaptain said:
Understand where I'm coming from as this comment is coming from experience. Unless she wants to become a NOAA Corps commissioned officer she is wasting her time at NOAA. I could fill pages why that is, but she needs to be looking at other companies if she really wants to sail.
With that being said KP does a horrible and I mean a horrible job when it comes to mentoring midshipman on sailing jobs post graduation. There is no one there to goto or ask with regards sailing jobs.
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The horrible job they are doing is in asking those industries (shipping, drilling, cruise, etc.) involved in at least $1 trillion in commerce to help pay for the training of their most skilled labor. They obviously like the product if they are willing to pay so well.

MumKP2015 said:
I have to chime in about a previous comment. As I recall the midshipman at KP were some of the first people to provide assistance to transport people away from the city during 911. They also have been involved in helping out after Hurricane Sandy. I think KP as the other Service Academies build character. I think it may be worthwhile to mention the midshipman at KP do not get paid monthly. The only time they are paid is for work done during their sea year. We investigated an other SA and the students from my understanding are paid something monthly. There are also some expenses that the student pays each trimester to the school. My DS has a twin sister going to a traditional college and I admit that it isn't the same as paying tuition at a traditional college. I just don't think you are comparing apples to apples here. KP is an excellent school, and there are I am sure areas of study that can be improved upon. However KP has a strategic plan and is working on specific areas. Just my two cents.
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No one questioning the talents, character, capabilities or patriotism of USMMA mids. I can think of only two non-SA University level instituions (I'm sure there are more): Cooper Union and Webb Institute, that offer free tuition to students. They are financed by private endowments not the taxpayer. As I have said before, if my DS, an AROTC MSII, decides to go reserve and never serves AD, then DOD is stupid not to ask for some of that scholarship/stipend $ back.

Just add it the list of midlde and upper class entitlements.
 
Pima said:
Sure, they didn't choose wisely, they could have gone to KP and make that salary at 22, but the fact is it my tax dollars that allowed it. As a taxpayer I have a right to be informed and make a decision whether I believe those dollars are being spent wisely.
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I agree that you have a fight to be informed, but you and I both know, Congress doesn't give two #$%^ what our taxes go towards.

That said, if there's anywhere you can ACTUALLY measure your ROI it's the private sector. Let's say USAFA produces 1,600 new 2nd Lt. in a year (random number, not sure what the real number is). Let's say that 50 of them are dead weight. They'll go off to their units, alienate the enlisted members, drink and drive, fraternize etc etc etc. Point is, they're not good. Let's say another 50 don't like their work. They didn't get the job they wanted. They put in the minimum. They just get by. They're not in trouble, but they're not "high speed, low drag".

Well, that's 100 folks between the two groups. Unless they REALLY screw up, they're going to make it to 5 years. They're going to get their BAH and their going to get their regular raises and they're going to get their base salaries. It's going to happen. Not because they're deserve it, but because Congress passed a multi trillion dollar budget, and their service, the Air Force was a line item on DOD's budgets. And their pay was a tiny speck on that line item. Short of breaking a law, they will get that money, because no one in Congress, the guys that give them the money, are "overseeing" how it's used.

Let's say USMMA graduates 200 KPers, and some of them go AD (and fall into the same system as the USAFA grads). The rest go to sea. And they work for companies. These companies have salaries they pay, operating expenses and money flowing in. The deckies and engineers they hire either contribute to pulling a profit or they don't. If they don't do what they need to do; if they are dead weight, or high drag and slow speed.... well you know wait.... (right to work), they're sent packing.


HR in the federal government takes so long because they have no skin in the game. They're hiring someone, so a position that's getting paid either way, and the money is from somewhere else.

So if you REALLY want to know how your money is performing, it's not the guy in uniform, in a hiring bubble, that's going to show you..... its the guy who will be fired if he doesn't meet expectations; the guy who is subjected to the shifting winds of the market place.
 
cb7893 said:
Just add it the list of midlde and upper class entitlements.
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If only they were using those entitlements... the ones being sucked dry by the lowest class. It's important to remember, it's the middle and upper class actually paying into "entitlements".

Some of those entitlements would be the retirement for AD in a service for 20 years (hardly reasonable on the outside).
 
cb,

I may be wrong, but even if DS goes IRR, he would owe 8 yrs and they can call him up at anytime to serve AD, i.E. Iraq and Afghanistan had many Guard units deployed.

Be darned his"real world" job, they still own him.

As you stated there are some institutions that offer this at no cost to the taxpayer. If they exist, and the mids at KP can get the same level of education, why should we pay for KP?

35% or 100-125 grads of the KP that go AD could be absorbed within the CG, Army, Navy and AF with ease. Meanwhile, at 400K for the 100 mids, it is 40 million. Do the Math, if they went ROTC or OCS, they could commission 400 officers, not 100 in the military.

JMPO, but maybe KP should do what the other SA's are doing, reducing admissions. Maybe they should say no military option upon graduation. KPEngineer stated this is a DoT budget issue, not DoD. By doing so, the DoT would reduce their expenditures. Let the DoD be on the hook for the cost of educating future officers.

I am betting the DoT can find a way to spend that 40 million every yr.
 
MumKP2015 said:
We investigated an other SA and the students from my understanding are paid something monthly.
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As an "FYI" - military academy pay is set by Federal Law.

2012 = $989.80 per month.
2013 = $1,006.60 per month.

37 USC § 203 - Rates

A cadet at the United States Military Academy, the United States Air Force Academy, or the Coast Guard Academy, or a midshipman at the United States Naval Academy, is entitled to monthly cadet pay, or midshipman pay, at the monthly rate equal to 35 percent of the basic pay of a commissioned officer in the pay grade O–1 with less than two years of service.
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I have kind of avoided the whole cost part of this discussion because I see it going nowhere and that wasn't where my interest in this thread was. That said, Pima, 100% of the KP grads do go either AD or Navy Reserves. AROTC pays quite a bit and gives quite a few really good scholarships and a significant number of those cadets go Army Reserves and enter the private sector right out of college.
 
Packer,

Thanks, because at least I feel better regarding that there is a financial return as a taxpayer.

However, now curious, if other posters are correct and only 35% go AD, while 100% do commission, what is the reserve pay back?

Plus, why does KP grads are the only ones to get reserve option compared to USNA and NROTC grads. It brings it back to ROI.

Luigi,

As mentioned other SA cadet/mids must pay back some things which are automatically deducted. Do you know why their actual pay after the deduction would be?

LITS,

The military does not have a 401K per se compared to corporate world. It is not $1 invested matched by the military, hence why pensions still exist. Plus, remember the minute that military member dies, that pay is gone. If they die in a freak car accident 24 hrs after retiring it is over regarding the survivors.

An entitlement to me is getting something without putting anything into the system. 20 yrs of AD, placing your life at risk, moving when they say move, so others never have to do it is not something I would call an entitlement. I don't know one person that is willing to put their self or their family through that to get 50% of base pay 20 yrs later.

OBTW, how is it an entitlement if for 20 yrs you paid into the system with tax dollars, unless you think SS is also an entitlement? FYI, we pay 31% both federal and state on that pension. So not only did we pay taxes as an AD member for Bullet's salary, we now also pay taxes for the pension he is receiving. I don't know the ins and outs of welfare, maybe you do. Do they pay taxes on welfare checks?

FWIW, I am pro-SS means testing. I am also pro-welfare with yr limits...no forever. 5-8 yrs, yes, because as a Mom, if Bullet left me when DS2 was a baby, daycare would have been an issue. I have a heart, but I also recognize the abuse.

We are not getting political, and that was never my desire. My desire was to understand the mission of USMMA regarding education and tax dollars spent to maintain KP.

I know KP has had issues, the CO2 issue this past yr illustrates the impact of budget constraints. I would assume that will mean more money to rectify the problem. That is taxpayer money. Is it to our advantage to keep KP open? Would you suggest that we take money away from the AD world since Packer stated 100% must go at least reserve in the Navy.

Retirees are now anteeing up at a higher rate than ever. They have to pay higher premiums for Tri-Care...rightfully so. They are not getting yrly COLA for their retirement pay. Retiree dependents are being shut out of military base hospitals. That well is basically dry now, and worse yet, it will have an impact on manpower retention when this economy comes back. An economy with a 5% unemployment rate, not an 8% will equate to members bolting at a higher rate as soon as their commitment is over.
 
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Pima said:
cb,

I may be wrong, but even if DS goes IRR, he would owe 8 yrs and they can call him up at anytime to serve AD, i.E. Iraq and Afghanistan had many Guard units deployed.

Be darned his"real world" job, they still own him.

As you stated there are some institutions that offer this at no cost to the taxpayer. If they exist, and the mids at KP can get the same level of education, why should we pay for KP?

35% or 100-125 grads of the KP that go AD could be absorbed within the CG, Army, Navy and AF with ease. Meanwhile, at 400K for the 100 mids, it is 40 million. Do the Math, if they went ROTC or OCS, they could commission 400 officers, not 100 in the military.

JMPO, but maybe KP should do what the other SA's are doing, reducing admissions. Maybe they should say no military option upon graduation. KPEngineer stated this is a DoT budget issue, not DoD. By doing so, the DoT would reduce their expenditures. Let the DoD be on the hook for the cost of educating future officers.

I am betting the DoT can find a way to spend that 40 million every yr.
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IRR is a joke, no one gets called up unless they want to and by law if your sailing they can't call you up.
 
tankercaptain said:
IRR is a joke, no one gets called up unless they want to and by law if your sailing they can't call you up.
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This story gets worse by the post. I'm about ready to tell DS #2 to forget NROTC, reload, and shoot for USMMA class of '19.

All I am asking is DOT, Commerce, DOE to collect:

$1/container or automobile
10 cents/barrel petroleum or product
10 cents/tn dry bulk(we'll even make it a long ton)
$1/cruise passenger
$100/day per drilling, dredging, exploration in us waters

from the industries which benefit from highly specific skill set training which the USMMA produces. If the product weren't good, they wouldn't be paying new grads $110k/yr working every other month.

For the expressed purpose of maintaining the premier maritime university on the planet. And maybe it can get off the top 10 list of colleges with the worse food. The supreme maritime nation deserves no less.
 
Pima said:
KPEngineer,

As far as the 87K and 20K tax free, it depends where you live. In Goldsboro NC, it would not be 20K. Additionally, only O5's below zone in the AF hit that at 14 yrs. Typically pinning on O5 is 16 yrs. To make O5 you will need a Master's degree in the AF which the AD member pays at least 25% of the tuition, all of the book costs, and owes 3 more yrs AD. You will have most likely moved by that time at least 6, 7 times at that time, and even with DLA and TLA, you will always be out of pocket.
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You're right. An O5 with dependents in the SEYMOUR JOHNSON AFB, NC Military Housing Area gets $24,336 per year tax free.

With a DC duty station its almost $40,000 per year, tax free over and above your pay. BAH is a phenomenal deal for the service member. I've been on it myself so I know how it works. All of the benefits the military gets are light years better than the vast majority of the private sector. Again, more power to you. I don't care that you get it, what burns me up is when military personnel are not appreciative of how good they do have it. Most of us would have to find a way to find housing for our families on just the $87,000 part.

BTW ... please do not take my attacks as personal. I'm trying to ensure they are not sent out that way, you just happen to be jumping up and down on one of my pet peeves


Pima said:
Now compare that to a 36 yo, that has a Masters degree, and is considered sr. mgmt., with 14 yrs of experience, how much do you think they are making per yr? I am betting
it is more than 100K in a specialized field. Afterall, you and others have reminded everyone here that the 22 yo right out of KP, without a Masters degree and no career experience are making more than an O5 with 14 yrs.
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You are comparing two completely different career paths.

Maybe the lack of an answer is an answer in itself.
 
Packer said:
Wow, this just keeps coming back. I get that the industry offers some tremendous opportunities to people suited for that type of work. However, I keep hearing that KP does a poor job on all of these fronts that are important. I understand there will always be criticism as that is human nature but the level of criticism seems a bit higher than average. Is KP doing anything to try and adress these shortcomings or does KP even recognize these various issues as shortcoming that need adressed?
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Keep in mind that you are mingling with a bunch of alumni. We had to figure a lot of this out on our own. We pass it along when we can which is why we are here in this forum.
 
KPEngineer said:
Keep in mind that you are mingling with a bunch of alumni. We had to figure a lot of this out on our own. We pass it along when we can which is why we are here in this forum.
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Greatly appreciate this forum and yours and others willingness to share what you have learned.
 
KPEngineer said:
Not exactly accurate but you are not too far off.
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Come on now. It's pretty true, unless your SELRES. Then it's a whole other ball game. By the way attending a recent SSO muster, it was brought up how the Navy will no longer pay for BST or RADAR renewal. Also that the Navy will soon be giving walking papers to SSO IRR officers who are not sailing or not working for the government.
Finally when one of my best friends makes O5 and only did 3 ATs, the program is a joke.
 
KPEnguneer,

An O5 is 36-37, not 22, and your point is what? That a 37 yo with 15 yrs experience in one company, one field, with a grad degree, risked their life (when you weren't willing), moved 5 times is not worth 107K, while the 22 yo out of KP is!

No offense, but you are emotionally attached to KP, and not looking at this objectively from a taxpayer perspective.

The fact that you bring up the pay for the military, but not acknowledge KP grads salary proves my point.

I am curious, I have no bone in this fight, no kids at KP, no alumni attachment. Is that the same for you? Do you have a bone in the fight? Are you an alumni, a parent of a mid, a candidate?

Explain to me why to you 415K per mid is worth it regarding your tax dollars. Business, not personal.
 
Pima said:
KPEnguneer,

An O5 is 36-37, not 22, and your point is what? That a 37 yo with 15 yrs experience in one company, one field, with a grad degree, risked their life (when you weren't willing), moved 5 times is not worth 107K, while the 22 yo out of KP is!

No offense, but you are emotionally attached to KP, and not looking at this objectively from a taxpayer perspective.

The fact that you bring up the pay for the military, but not acknowledge KP grads salary proves my point.

I am curious, I have no bone in this fight, no kids at KP, no alumni attachment. Is that the same for you? Do you have a bone in the fight? Are you an alumni, a parent of a mid, a candidate?

Explain to me why to you 415K per mid is worth it regarding your tax dollars. Business, not personal.
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KP is not 415k per midshipman. It's 200K.

Second from a taxpayer perspective the big three academies are a boondoggle a huge one at that especially with a 50% retention rate.
Third the military is a huge expense and who except congress defines their pay, by the way people who go active duty make their own choice about lifestyle they can get out and work in the private sector.
Finally you are just as emotionally attached to this subject as KPEngineer.
 
Pima said:
KPEnguneer,

An O5 is 36-37, not 22, and your point is what? That a 37 yo with 15 yrs experience in one company, one field, with a grad degree, risked their life (when you weren't willing), moved 5 times is not worth 107K, while the 22 yo out of KP is!

No offense, but you are emotionally attached to KP, and not looking at this objectively from a taxpayer perspective.

The fact that you bring up the pay for the military, but not acknowledge KP grads salary proves my point.

I am curious, I have no bone in this fight, no kids at KP, no alumni attachment. Is that the same for you? Do you have a bone in the fight? Are you an alumni, a parent of a mid, a candidate?

Explain to me why to you 415K per mid is worth it regarding your tax dollars. Business, not personal.
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Are you discussing this with your congessman?
 
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