Seeking Advice from USMMA Students and Alumni Please

[4for40]

I've been researching as many sources as possible to fully evaluate a potential decision I may have before me if all goes well. I've attended as many on-site visits as possible for the past three years, as well as reading nearly every post on the subject in this forum. My I am struggling with some of the details and need some advice. Here's some background:

1.) I have been awarded a 4-year NROTC scholarship to a state maritime academy. The SMA also covers room and board for NROTC scholarship recipients. I intend to study marine engineering and pursue the unlimited third engineer license. My understanding is that with the school's summer cruises, cadet shipping, and Navy Summer Cruises I would have sea time near equivalent to USMMA.

2.) For USMMA, I currently have a "qualified" application with a Senator nomination. The only piece that remains for my application is the CFA. I am already DoDMERB qualified. I understand that I may not be offered an appointment but I am trying to prepare for a potential decision if I'm "lucky". I intend to study marine engineering and shipyard management.

USMMA was my only choice for my nomination applications. I am only applying to maritime oriented schools as my goals are specific to their purpose:

- Major in Marine Engineering
- Earn a USCG Unlimited Third Engineer License
- Career in Maritime Industry (at sea as long as possible, followed by shore side in industry)
- A 5 Year Active Duty term in the US Navy as either Submarine Officer (1st choice) or Surface Warfare Officer. From what I understand of the Marine Safety Manual Vol III, my time during active duty could count towards maintaining my USCG license.

I know there are opinions (ref: posts on this forum) on using USMMA as a commissioning source but I hope I've explained my intentions well enough. I am determined to follow a career as an American Merchant Marine Officer, but committing some time to active duty service is important to me. I want to be the best professional I can be and I think the experience would be invaluable considering a long-term career in the field. I'm sure I'm thinking too far ahead, but serving as a Sub Officer and then using my license credentials to work with Military Sealift Command would be a dream come true.

I apologize for the long post but I would be very grateful to current USMMA/Maritime Academy students and alumni who can share any insight on my questions:

1.) How would you weigh the pros and cons of my potential decision - USMMA vs Maritime NROTC?
2.) I understand that about 1/3 or so decide to go active duty after graduation, but can anyone give an idea of the likelihood for the Navy (specifically Sub/SWO tracks). I'm not looking for a guarantee, but an estimate of chances.

I am grateful for your thoughts and advice.

 

[KPEngineer]

using my license credentials to work with Military Sealift Command would be a dream come true.

Obviously you know nothing about actually working for MSC.


Seriously though …


1.) How would you weigh the pros and cons of my potential decision - USMMA vs Maritime NROTC?

A lot of this is personal preference. Would you rather be in Galveston TX in the summer of Castine ME? Where would you rather spend the winter? I think when it comes down to quality of education there’s not a huge difference. For getting in to your USN Career Path of choice someone actually in the Navy involved in this process is going to give you a better answer than anyone here.

In the past I have always said that the biggest advantage of USMMA over any other Maritime School or Service Academy is sea year. With the current situation …

2.) I understand that about 1/3 or so decide to go active duty after graduation, but can anyone give an idea of the likelihood for the Navy (specifically Sub/SWO tracks). I'm not looking for a guarantee, but an estimate of chances.

A lot of this comes down to a numbers game and will be specific to your year of graduation. Say you are ranked number 10 overall, they may have taken 12 the year before and will take 12 year but they are only taking 8 this year … you are left on the outside looking in when you would have made it any other year.

 

[4for40]

Thanks KPEngineer!

Obviously you know nothing about actually working for MSC.

This is so true! I'm counting on a lot of "reality checks" in the coming months / years There's no substitute for experience.

...when it comes down to quality of education there’s not a huge difference.

You raise an important point and something I've been trying to understand better. Having visited most of the maritime schools, there are a lot of similarities and few differences other than location, regiment, etc. In most cases the marine engineering programs are ABET accredited and the course work is the same. From what I have read, aside from rivalries and personal preferences, all seem to have a very good reputation in the industry.

Thanks for your insights.

 

[5Day]

The pros to NROTC would be active duty as long as you meet the minimum requirements.
If you go subs your commitment will be longer than 5 years because of the training requirement.

 

[MMA19kid]

In the past I have always said that the biggest advantage of USMMA over any other Maritime School or Service Academy is sea year. With the current situation …

Doesn't anyone in the maritime industry feel as though KP puts out a better product than the other 5 or 6 academies?

2.) I understand that about 1/3 or so decide to go active duty after graduation, but can anyone give an idea of the likelihood for the Navy (specifically Sub/SWO tracks). I'm not looking for a guarantee, but an estimate of chances.

Obviously, as KPEngineer said, it's about the needs of the US Navy in the coming 4 years. Only time will tell. But....An ex Commanding Officer of a Navy sub who now works in recruitment came to talk to us about a week ago, and he said that they were very impressed with the recent KP grads selected for Sub officers, and said, "I wish you guys would send me some more (for the sub program)."

He also emphasized that an engineering degree is not a necessity to be a nuclear sub officer. Shipyard is probably the best degree at the USMMA currently...Solid quantitative skills with all of the engineering work, and business courses, coupled with that internship in the actual operations of a shipyard. Probably one of the best foundations you can have to set yourself up for success.

 

[beyond]

Doesn't anyone in the maritime industry feel as though KP puts out a better product than the other 5 or 6 academies?

No. Literally no one feels this way.

I think cadet shipping gives KP folks an edge for the first few watches, but around the 45 day mark your ability as a mate or an engineer has very little to do with where you went to school and a lot more to do with what kind of person you are.

 

[KPEngineer]

Doesn't anyone in the maritime industry feel as though KP puts out a better product than the other 5 or 6 academies?

I suppose sycophants and kool-aid drinkers do, but no experienced or intellectually honest member of the maritime industry does.

But....An ex Commanding Officer of a Navy sub who now works in recruitment came to talk to us about a week ago, and he said that they were very impressed with the recent KP grads selected for Sub officers, and said, "I wish you guys would send me some more (for the sub program)."

Nice talking point, but realize that this has zero impact an any one individuals acceptance into the Navy Nuclear Program.

Shipyard is probably the best degree at the USMMA currently...Solid quantitative skills with all of the engineering work, and business courses, coupled with that internship in the actual operations of a shipyard. Probably one of the best foundations you can have to set yourself up for success.

I actually agree with this. The S/Y major began while I was already there, I was able to take a few classes as electives but would have chose this as a major were it available.

 

[MMA19kid]

No. Literally no one feels this way.

I think cadet shipping gives KP folks an edge for the first few watches, but around the 45 day mark your ability as a mate or an engineer has very little to do with where you went to school and a lot more to do with what kind of person you are.

The KP deck degree is losing its value so quickly. No Cohn or Capt Hard to fail anymore. my econ class was just an old guy they brought from queens community college.

Plus the now ex commandant who replaced destafney changed all the rules, might as well be Great Neck community college now.

 

[beyond]

The KP deck degree is losing its value so quickly. No Cohn or Capt Hard to fail anymore. my econ class was just an old guy they brought from queens community college.

I don't think Cohn added any value to my KP education. I think I mentioned him being a right of passage in a previous post, but that was about it. It was not about economics, it was about playing his stupid game. I do think Hard is a loss, but Edenfileld is a pretty solid second string guy to teach rules. While I knew the rules cold back then, a lot of it fades away to the stuff I use every day.

If you can hold down a bridge watch and have the judgement to know when to call the old man then you're pretty much good to go. That comes from mostly cadet shipping, but also from the fourth floor of Bowditch. Captain Nicholas was probably the most realistic when it came to that kind of stuff.

Plus the now ex commandant who replaced destafney changed all the rules, might as well be Great Neck community college now.

He was really the replacement for Kennedy... who also didn't get it. Yeah. Until they have someone on 0 deck of Palmer who "gets it" when it comes to a MARITIME academy, not a MILITARY academy it will continue to be a mess.

 

[Capt MJ]

@4for40,

I have a slightly different perspective.

Throughout my Navy career, I had 4 significant tours with MSC. I worked with many KP and maritime school grads, as MSC civil Mariners, US-flag mariners in MSC contract ships, regular civil service and active duty Navy officers. Some had been all four.

Though there was a great deal of inter-school joshing around (Mainiacs!), when it came to professionalism and execution of duties afloat and ashore, I found very little difference. All of them were justifiably proud of their schools. The bonds seemed slightly tighter for KP, as you would expect of a Federal academy, and because so many began their careers in the same companies/fields. I saw close bonds in the others as well.

These two bios below from shipmates of mine demonstrate that maritime grads can do very well as active duty Navy officers, and usually have strong ship driving, practical engineering and nav skills right out of the gate.

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/navybio.asp?bioid=142

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/navybio.asp?bioID=354

Both have gone on to successful civilian careers.

You are very clear you want an active duty Navy career for some period of time before a maritime career. You should get enough briefs and NROTC cruises at a state school to sort out the ship vs sub question later. You have in your hand a reliable path to that goal, with a NROTC scholarship to a state maritime. KP has been going through years of churn since RADM Greene left, and the current sea year issue has added to the intensity. There is certainly a path to active duty Navy from USMMA, but the "needs of the Navy" will dictate how many slots will be available in any given commissioning year; there is no way today to predict what that number will be. I sympathize with KP grads as they watch their fine school navigate rocks and shoals.

Keep your eyes on your 5 year goal and chart a course that feels right for you.

I think you have a "bird in the hand vs. bird in the bush" situation.

 

[KP Eng]

Lots of good advice on this thread. Here's my two cents. If I was absolutely sure I wanted to start out active duty Navy, I think I would take the ROTC path. It is intended for that. If I had a some doubt, I would take the USMMA path. It keeps the AD option open, but gives you more flexibility in the event your perspective changes after you see a little bit more.

 

[MMA19kid]

I don't think Cohn added any value to my KP education. I think I mentioned him being a right of passage in a previous post, but that was about it. It was not about economics, it was about playing his stupid game. I do think Hard is a loss, but Edenfileld is a pretty solid second string guy to teach rules. While I knew the rules cold back then, a lot of it fades away to the stuff I use every day.

If you can hold down a bridge watch and have the judgement to know when to call the old man then you're pretty much good to go. That comes from mostly cadet shipping, but also from the fourth floor of Bowditch. Captain Nicholas was probably the most realistic when it came to that kind of stuff.

Captain nicholas is the man...great teacher. But, get this...CDR frangos and the ex-commandant (after destafney) made this system to make the regiment a grade. So we are getting point totals for regimental/other stuff participation to make KP a real service academy.

 

[cmakin]

Captain nicholas is the man...great teacher. But, get this...CDR frangos and the ex-commandant (after destafney) made this system to make the regiment a grade. So we are getting point totals for regimental/other stuff participation to make KP a real service academy.

Nah, it will never be a "real" service academy.

 

[KPEngineer]

Captain nicholas is the man...great teacher. But, get this...CDR frangos and the ex-commandant (after destafney) made this system to make the regiment a grade. So we are getting point totals for regimental/other stuff participation to make KP a real service academy.

So what exactly does this grade do/not do for you and how does it make KP more of a service academy then it already is? Does it affect your actual GPA?

 

[MMA19kid]

So what exactly does this grade do/not do for you and how does it make KP more of a service academy then it already is? Does it affect your actual GPA?

Its supposedly going to be factored into your class rank...every other service academy has regimental stuff factored into ranking (I believe). No, it does not affect your academic GPA.

 

[Capt MJ]

Broadly stated, at USNA, there is the Academic Order of Merit, class standing based on academic class grades. The full order of merit includes academic, conduct (demerit fun, variously named over the years), military performance and any other gradable aspect. Company Officer assigns the performance grade, with only so many A and B grades allowed per class in company. Mid leadership participates in ranking and recommendation process.

 

[KPEngineer]

Its supposedly going to be factored into your class rank...every other service academy has regimental stuff factored into ranking (I believe). No, it does not affect your academic GPA.

C'mon guys ... quit with the constant "Chestering".

You're not a military academy in the true sense and until you join DoD and/or have graduates go 100% active duty the actual military academies will never really see you as an equal. Embrace your Maritime-ness for it is what actually sets you apart. What does this regimental ranking actually do for me? Big Navy isn't going to give a S--- about it and it will have ZERO impact on getting your slot of choice. What is the impact if I get a zero on my regimental grade? Nothing relevant or important I'm pretty certain.

Instead of trying to be more like USNA/USMA/USAFA, reengage with what makes you unique. Institute a "maritime" grade based solely on sea projects, sea year evals, maritime-ness of internship and maritime-ness of your extra-curricular activities. Now your actually doing something relevant and could actually be useful when interviewing for jobs in the MARITIME INDUSTRY ... you know, that entity you were established to support.

Zombo then, Zombo now, Zombo forever ...

 

[cmakin]

C'mon guys ... quit with the constant "Chestering".

You're not a military academy in the true sense and until you join DoD and/or have graduates go 100% active duty the actual military academies will never really see you as an equal. Embrace your Maritime-ness for it is what actually sets you apart. What does this regimental ranking actually do for me? Big Navy isn't going to give a S--- about it and it will have ZERO impact on getting your slot of choice. What is the impact if I get a zero on my regimental grade? Nothing relevant or important I'm pretty certain.

Instead of trying to be more like USNA/USMA/USAFA, reengage with what makes you unique. Institute a "maritime" grade based solely on sea projects, sea year evals, maritime-ness of internship and maritime-ness of your extra-curricular activities. Now your actually doing something relevant and could actually be useful when interviewing for jobs in the MARITIME INDUSTRY ... you know, that entity you were established to support.

Zombo then, Zombo now, Zombo forever ...

It IS all about the Z. . . .

 

[MMA19kid]

Not exactly sure how big Navy chooses the slots...but its perplexing. I think around 30 went AD navy last year...and they were generally definitely not the cream of the class. I'd say most were average to below average in terms of kp students. Except this kid I knew that went nuke, he was solid...but in general you would hear someone say something along the lines of, "I got Navy flight, hell yeah." Following quizzical stares, like how did that happen?

 

[MMA19kid]

Also I don't know if you guys know CDR hunt the deck teacher, beyond probably does. But he just retired last term. The deck department is going south way too fast. First Hard and now Hunt...