Service Selection Class of 2020 is Today

Here’s what a bunch of us were told by out company mentor for one community:

The percentage of mids getting their first choice that gets tossed around typically does not account for special communites. I.e. mids that put SEALs, EOD, IWC, or Med Corps as their top choice who get their second choice are counted as getting their first choice. But this year, they’re being more straightforward with the metric, which is the reason for the lower number. Not 100% sure if this is the case but it may be.
 
Oh, don't get me started on the Aptitude System...
We could fill up an entire thread talking about its shortcomings(of which there are many, not just pertaining the topic at hand), but yes, there does exist an aptitude system. ...

Do you believe that this evaluation system is any different than the manner in which the Entire Navy operates and has operated for a Century?

Enlisted Evaluation and Advancement, Officer Evaluation and Promotion, Selection for Command, Selection as Chief Engineer, etc, etc.
 
I find this disrespectful to the SWO community. The origins and main focus of the Navy is ships. To say it is a default is a slap in the face to those who desire to serve in that community. My mid is thankful for the opportunity to be at USNA and is happy and willing to serve in whatever community they are assigned to. And my mid qualified for every community/choice. No selection is a default or lower than another. They are all commissioning as officers and leaders.
I really agree with this. There isn't a single career I wouldn't be happy with 4.5 years from now (assuming all goes well with medical). Sure, some are more exciting than others, but you go to USNA to become a naval officer, not to take a specific role.
 
Historically you came to the Naval Academy to become a LINE Officer. So you couldn't be colorblind, needed 20/20 Vision, no hearing loss, and had a green tattoo on your right wrist so as to know starboard at least. (Optional red tattoo on left wrist so you'd be totally good to go.)

That changed to include include becoming Doctors, Lawyers, and Candlestick Makers - not to mention a lot of others.

EDIT:
My wife just read my post and pointed out the Tattoo(s) were optional... only we Submariners needed at least one. And don't even get me started as to where we needed 3.14159265359 tattooed.
 
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Historically you came to the Naval Academy to become a LINE Officer. So you couldn't be colorblind, needed 20/20 Vision, no hearing loss, and had a green tattoo on your right wrist so as to know starboard at least. (Optional red tattoo on left wrist so you'd be totally good to go.)

That changed to include include becoming Doctors, Lawyers, and Candlestick Makers - not to mention a lot of others.

EDIT:
My wife just read my post and pointed out the Tattoo(s) were optional... only we Submariners needed at least one. And don't even get me started as to where we needed 3.14159265359 tattooed.
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Senior Chief,

I have a Retired Greyhound from The Track in Tampa, FL.

Inside her Right ear is Tattoo 90B inside her Left Ear is 54970.

I understand Purebred horses are tattooed on the inside of their lips, as in your photo.

I have some great stories about Independent Duty Corpsmen such as yourself. They were our doctor, dentist, and father confessor on the Boats. Maybe over a Beer sometime. :cool:

Kaias_Madilynn_At_Track.jpg
 
I really didn't view the comment as "disrespectful" as much as a statement of harsh reality. Back in the days of "service selection", which was done purely on Class Rank, there were always SWO billets left to be filled, and the bottom of the class generally got the less desirable billets . This doesn't mean that SWO is less desirable, and plenty of people at the top of the class went SWO--it's simply a recognition of the fact that there were more billets to fill than their were people to fill them, while most of the other conmmunities had limits on accessions . As OldRetSWO says, aviation often went pretty deep (because there were alof billets), and sometimes they didn't even fill the USMC quota. NFO actually went pretty quick in my day, when we had a lot of aircraft carrying NFO's (P3, E2, A6, EA6B and variety of special mission aircraft) and limited billets.

The fact that the end of the Class often went SWO should not denigrate the SWO community, or those that graduated at the end of the Class. The anchorman graduates with the same rank as the valedictorian, and once you get the commission and go tot he Fleet, your academic performance at USNA doesn't count anymore. Plenty of classmates who graduated lower in the Class served honorably and effectively as SWO's for 20+ years.

I would be curious, and perhaps a current Midshipman or more recent graduate can comment; One of the advantages of the Service Assignment (v. Service Selection ) process is that it give the community some opportunity to evaluate aptitude and fit for that particular community. What happens if NONE of the communities wants a particular Midshipman ? I presume there is a Aptitude evaluation program to identify the person who somehow slipped by the Admissions process and got admitted, and most are separated (voluntarily or involuntarily) before they get to Service Assignment, but what happens to the Midshipman who is not bad enough to separate but nobody wants him/her ?
I will speak on behalf of my mid who just went through the process: he wanted aviation, and went that route. When he arrived on I-day, he wanted subs. He did a sub cruise the summer after plebe year. It was good. He really liked the crew and the officers. He was impressed and felt like they would all get along great, BUT he didn’t like the idea of lots of good food and little exercise and little sleep. He said while the sub crews he encountered were fantastic, he just felt like their lives were not what he wanted. He wanted a healthier life and valued that over the adventure that a sub provides.
He did two YP cruises, one after plebe summer, and one the following summer after protramid. He enjoyed it, and during the second cruise they had the first ROTC participants on board.

As an aside, that particular YP cruise demonstrated to him the value of the YP cruise, specifically, when the ROTC kids started, he said they were like have elementary school kids on board. They literally knew nothing of Navigation, Ship Handling basics, etc etc. stuff they’d been working on since day 1 and he was appalled and terrified for the Navy, BUT by the end of the cruise they were doing a solid job and it really opened his eyes about how valuable the YP cruises are for producing competent sailors.

During protramid he had a short flight week because it fell on the week of the 4th of July. So their time was limited to two days. He did get to go up to fly, but he said his pilot flew straight and level the whole time, nothing exciting. Boring and he didn’t enjoy the flight, but loved that he was flying. He also got to ride on a boomer and I thought his choice for subs had been revived. He absolutely loved it. The captain of that boat was fantastic as well, but had a major impact on him. He loved it.

Then this last summer he did an aviation cruise with a helicopter squadron. He loved it, but I think the thing he took away from that cruise was how great it was to be in the fleet, to cook for yourself, etc

In the end, what made his decision was where he felt most comfortable. He enjoyed the aviation community and felt he fit in there the best. He really struggled with the extra time commitment, because 2 for 7 isn’t as big a decision as, “do I spend 5 years or 10 years in the Navy. If I spend 10, it’s a career and I will not work in the field of my major in all likelihood”. There is also the lure of the big payment. Sub kids get signing bonuses and higher pay.

Regardless of how service assignment went, he was absolutely at peace with the Needs of the Navy come first. Service assignment is first and foremost about the Navy, not the individual. While they might not get their first choice, service comes first.
 
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I will speak on behalf of my mid who just went through the process: he wanted aviation, and went that route. When he arrived on I-day, he wanted subs. He did a sub cruise the summer after plebe year. It was good. He really liked the crew and the officers. He was impressed and felt like they would all get along great, BUT he didn’t like the idea of lots of good food and little exercise and little sleep. He said while the sub crews he encountered were fantastic, he just felt like their lives were not what he wanted. He wanted a healthier life and valued that over the adventure that a sub provides.
He did two YP cruises, one after plebe summer, and one the following summer after protramid. He enjoyed it, and during the second cruise they had the first ROTC participants on board.

As an aside, that particular YP cruise demonstrated to him the value of the YP cruise, specifically, when the ROTC kids started, he said they were like have elementary school kids on board. They literally knew nothing of Navigation, Ship Handling basics, etc etc. stuff they’d been working on since day 1 and he was appalled and terrified for the Navy, BUT by the end of the cruise they were doing a solid job and it really opened his eyes about how valuable the YP cruises are for producing competent sailors.

During protramid he had a short flight week because it fell on the week of the 4th of July. So their time was limited to two days. He did get to go up to fly, but he said his pilot flew straight and level the whole time, nothing exciting. Boring and he didn’t enjoy the flight, but loved that he was flying. He also got to ride on a boomer and I thought his choice for subs had been revived. He absolutely loved it. The captain of that boat was fantastic as well, but had a major impact on him. He loved it.

Then this last summer he did an aviation cruise with a helicopter squadron. He loved it, but I think the thing he took away from that cruise was how great it was to be in the fleet, to cook for yourself, etc

In the end, what made his decision was where he felt most comfortable. He enjoyed the aviation community and felt he fit in there the best. He really struggled with the extra time commitment, because 2 for 7 isn’t as big a decision as, “do I spend 5 years or 10 years in the Navy. If I spend 10, it’s a career and I will not work in the field of my major in all likelihood”. There is also the lure of the big payment. Sub kids get signing bonuses and higher pay.

Regardless of how service assignment went, he was absolutely at peace with the Needs of the Navy come first. Service assignment is first and foremost about the Navy, not the individual. While they might not get their first choice, service comes first.

That first pic of him posing after he’s soloed in the jet trainer will go a long way toward soothing any concerns about working in his major. You can find dozens of threads on here about how few officers work in their major, but it may inform the other skills they gain in leadership and resource management, when they eventually separate or retire and go on to another career. He has another 65/75 years on the planet to figure a way into his major field or explore as many career fields as he wants, but likely never another window to earn his wings of gold in his twenties and fly Navy.
 
DS just went through service selection as a member of Class of 2020. He received first choice, Marine Aviator. The class, however, had a comparatively lower rate of people receiving first choice. This is apparently due to the smaller size of the class (currently 1,021), and the need to meet requirements of different service lines. 13th Company was particularly impacted, apparently, with only about 60% of those firsties receiving their first choice. Both the 'Dant and Chaps were in the ward room for their service selection to acknowledge the situation, and plebes (normally out in the hallway and cheering when the firsties emerge) were sent back into their rooms.
 
Here’s a question for those on here with actual experience/knowledge: how common is it for a midshipman who has maxed every PRT and is smack in the middle of the class in terms of OOM to get their fifth choice of service selection?

I don't think anyone has received lower than their third choice in recent memory. Let's face it, part of this is on the USN/USMC and part is on the mid. It has always been the case that, if you stand low in your class, you will have fewer options than if you stand high in your class. Second, you have to be smart about your choices. You may want more than anything to go USMC ground, but if Leatherneck didn't go well, it's probably not going to happen. IOW, it's fine to list it as your first choice (who knows what might happen), but to expect to get your first choice under those circumstances is unrealistic.

The process really hasn't changed all that much in the transition from "selection" to "assignment." Yes, it's true that if you stood #1 in the class in my day that you in theory could choose anything. BUT, there was no PRK so pilot was out for a lot of smart people. Nuke was pre-screened so that was an option only if you'd been selected. There were almost no SEAL/EOD billets, so that wasn't a real possibility for almost everyone. Women were generally limited to administrative/staff/RL billets. So in theory, we had more "choice." In reality, sort of.

One thing you learn really quickly in the USN/USMC is that the needs of the service always triumph. People who graduate first in their flight school class are supposed to have their choice of platform. Doesn't always happen. The USN or USMC may decide: "We need top pilots in X community" and "draft" the top pilots from a class or two into that platform. In other communities, the person who graduates top of his/her class is supposed to have first choice of duty assignment . . . can tell you from personal experience that doesn't always happen either.

Here, the USN and USMC must have a certain number of O-1s in each community. USNA would love to put every mid in his/her first choice (for which he/she has aptitude and is qualified). When that's not possible -- as it usually isn't -- some folks are going to get their second or even third choices. I know we're talking about people's careers and futures but, any time you join the military, you have to be prepared to be sent to a community that wasn't your first choice. If you want to make it more likely that you'll get your first choice, it's a no brainer: stand higher in your class and do really well at any "screening" type activities.
 
I don't think anyone has received lower than their third choice in recent memory. Let's face it, part of this is on the USN/USMC and part is on the mid. It has always been the case that, if you stand low in your class, you will have fewer options than if you stand high in your class. Second, you have to be smart about your choices. You may want more than anything to go USMC ground, but if Leatherneck didn't go well, it's probably not going to happen. IOW, it's fine to list it as your first choice (who knows what might happen), but to expect to get your first choice under those circumstances is unrealistic.

The process really hasn't changed all that much in the transition from "selection" to "assignment." Yes, it's true that if you stood #1 in the class in my day that you in theory could choose anything. BUT, there was no PRK so pilot was out for a lot of smart people. Nuke was pre-screened so that was an option only if you'd been selected. There were almost no SEAL/EOD billets, so that wasn't a real possibility for almost everyone. Women were generally limited to administrative/staff/RL billets. So in theory, we had more "choice." In reality, sort of.

One thing you learn really quickly in the USN/USMC is that the needs of the service always triumph. People who graduate first in their flight school class are supposed to have their choice of platform. Doesn't always happen. The USN or USMC may decide: "We need top pilots in X community" and "draft" the top pilots from a class or two into that platform. In other communities, the person who graduates top of his/her class is supposed to have first choice of duty assignment . . . can tell you from personal experience that doesn't always happen either.

Here, the USN and USMC must have a certain number of O-1s in each community. USNA would love to put every mid in his/her first choice (for which he/she has aptitude and is qualified). When that's not possible -- as it usually isn't -- some folks are going to get their second or even third choices. I know we're talking about people's careers and futures but, any time you join the military, you have to be prepared to be sent to a community that wasn't your first choice. If you want to make it more likely that you'll get your first choice, it's a no brainer: stand higher in your class and do really well at any "screening" type activities.

Yeah. I get that. But fifth choice for someone top half having maxed every single PRT? Something seems off.
 
Yeah. I get that. But fifth choice for someone top half having maxed every single PRT? Something seems off.

You haven't said what they were assigned or what their original preferences were. If you truly are looking for an explanation, that information would be helpful, though it is certainly your prerogative whether or not to provide it.

Were they sub/nuke drafted? That would explain a lot.
 
Yeah. I get that. But fifth choice for someone top half having maxed every single PRT? Something seems off.
Maybe it seems that way to you but "maxxing PRT" is not the Be All/End All to Order of Merit at USNA as there are lots of other components to the Order of Merit. The rest of the PE grades for things like Swimming, Boxing, etc play a part as do grades, conduct, military performance, etc.

Just for a strawman though, I'll map out how a top half of the class, maxxed every PRT could be on their fifth choice. Note:, I don't know the details here, but this is plausible and there are countless other scenarios where this could happen

Midshipman X's preference sheet.

1 Aviation - NFO
2 Subs
3 SWO Nuc
4 Marine Pilot
5 SWO

When the selection process runs, it turns out that NFOs were in high demand - slots ran out in the upper third of the class. Maybe the Mid is a Group 3 (non-Tech) Major with average (C's and B's) in Calc and Chemistry - NR (Naval Reactors) passes on this one so #2 and #3 are out. As he was not expecting to go Marine Corps, the Mid did not do Bulldog and USMC passes on him.

By the way, I stayed with the major warfare communities here and it very well could be that this mid put Special Warfare and EOD down as two of his choices, or Cyber or some other very small community and because the numbers picked are very limited, it is not unusual to be denied entry to them.
 
First, agree that it's hard to comment on how someone got his/her 5th choice without knowing more. Also, agree that maxing the PRT is not meaningful in and of itself. It would certainly be a plus for someone wanting to select USMC, provided he/she did well at Leatherneck.

I know that a few years ago, only one person got his 3rd choice. If I recall correctly, he had put down Navy Air as #1 but didn't have the scores on the flight tests to get it. Put Nuke (SWO or sub) as 2nd but didn't have the grades. SWO was 3rd. That person gave it a shot, but in the Navy's view, wasn't qualified for his first two choices. So, some of it can be the person's selections. As I said above, if you're marginally qualified for something, you can put it down as one never knows. But also need to realize it's not a realistic option.
 
Yeah, maxing the PRT is great but in reality it doesn’t carry much weight for you. The PRT is one third of your semester PE grade, which is a small percentage of overall order of merit. For USMC, they’re going to focus way more on your PFT, E-Course, O-Course, and CFT scores from leatherneck. For SEALS and EOD, they’re interested in a mid’s performance on their screeners, summer trainings, and interviews. Since PRT score is already factored into OOM it’s unlikely to be closely analyzed separately. To be honest the only benefit of a maxed PRT is the clout (Plus you get two banked weekends I believe).

Also would like to add just for reference, that a special community (SEALS, EOD, Cyber, Med Corps, etc.) can only be entered as a top preference, meaning you can only try to get one of them. USMC must be placed somewhere in the top 2 to be considered. IOW you can’t write your order of preference as SEALS, EOD, USMC Ground, Pilot, Swo, Subs.
 
Kierkegaard, why the "rule" on the multiple special communities, especially SEAL and EOD, where there would appear to be natural overlap of interest and skills. Or someone who'd like to be a SEAL but, if that doesn't work out, would love to do Cyber. I can think of various reasons but would be interested in the company line, so to speak.
 
In chess, you have 20 possible first moves.

This is crazy, but this thread just made me think of that most famous song of Serendipitous Beginning ... “I’ve just seen a face, I can’t forget the time or place” ...

Be thankful. In thirty years, you will look back and ........

I love being whimsical.
 
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If i recall, you can only put USMC as first or second choice. you can only select SEAL and EOD first. You can put EOD second only if you put SEAL first. Not sure if you can put 1. SEAL 2. EOD 3. USMC
but if you did that, it's very easy to see someone getting 4th or 5th choice
 
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i don't have data for 2020, but for 2019 there were more than a few (53 total) who got 3rd or lower choice. Overall, there were still 95% who got 1st or 2nd choice, but this number probably includes some who were drafted, who ended up getting their "new" first choice
it's also true that many (but certainly not all) of the mids getting 3rd 4th or 5th put in 1st or 2nd choices that they probably could have known were unrealistic.

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I guess a question for a current a Mid... if someone puts SEAL first and anything but SWO second will they get SEAL? I ask because when I was there if anyone put anything but SWO behind SEAL they basically took themselves out of the running for SEAL. They took it as you aren’t dedicated to being a SEAL because you aren’t willing to go be a SWO and reapply. I know there are also double the amount of SEAL spots as when our class went through so that may have changed things.
 
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