Service Selection

SaltiDawg said:
Are you suggesting that young men and women at the SA's are somehow tougher now than the young men of my day, or does the explanation lie in the fact that the demands and pressures have changed?
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It's a change of philosophy -- the view is that the every one admitted is qualified to graduate. I don't think that was the mindset when I was a Midshipman in the 80's (and it sounds like you have me by a few years).

I don't think the current Midshipmen are tougher. They are probably more qualified academically (at least on paper), and there appears to be an increased emphasis on academics and making USNA more like an elite college. They sell the "NOT COLLEGE" tshirt in the MidStore, but it looks more like a normal college than it did in my day. Times change ....I'm not going to go down the "When I was a Plebe...." road, but time will tell if the new way of making Naval Officers is better or worse.
 
SaltiDawg said:
OK. I'll put you down as believing, " the explanation lie(s) in the fact that the demands and pressures have changed"

You think the "goal" at any time was to weed "them" out? Wow!
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One thing that definitely changed from both of our days is that there doesn't seem to be upperclassmen "running out" plebes that they think can't measure up. I saw this done rather routinely back in the day and if you stop and think about it, this is some small number of mids, who likely have little to no actual fleet experience deciding that they know better than the Admissions Board which has numerous people with fleet and real world experience.

There is also a very good Academic Help system and Center where the help is much more organized than it was when I was a mid.
 
OldRetSWO said:
One thing that definitely changed from both of our days is that there doesn't seem to be upperclassmen "running out" plebes that they think can't measure up. I saw this done rather routinely back in the day and if you stop and think about it, this is some small number of mids, who likely have little to no actual fleet experience deciding that they know better than the Admissions Board which has numerous people with fleet and real world experience.

There is also a very good Academic Help system and Center where the help is much more organized than it was when I was a mid.
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My son said that the one thing that is really good is the Academic Help Center - he said it is very hard to do poorly academically because of the resources available.

And I contend every college sucking the money out of america should look at USNA’s system.
 
kp2001 said:
This stat seemed off, so went to double check. The average age of an MS1 according to the AAMC is 24/25.


Starting medical school at 32 would not be ideal in my mind, it’s possible and several a year do it, but that puts you starting residency at 36/37 and graduating from 40+. Residency is a young persons game, 80hrs a week, 6 days a week. Doing it older and/or with kids is just more pain to an already painful period of one’s life ( speaking from experience here).
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Dr. Strange Love said:
“Not unhappy” to see you go may be a better choice of words than weeding out.

No two people learn things the same way .... different angles to solve a problem, and so on. I think getting help is built-in now.
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Disagree.
Wife was in her late 30’s when she started medical school.
Top 5% of her class, class president, all while taking care of two kids while I was called back to active duty and deployed.
Picked for a highly competitive residency. Chief resident her last year. Again, picked for a highly competitive fellowship.
The background and experience she and other “non traditionals” bring to medicine really sets them apart. My wife did some of her medical school rotations with some med students from a “Doogie Howser” school of medicine- six year college/medical school programs. Brilliant kids, but the social skills of gnats.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Disagree.
Wife was in her late 30’s when she started medical school.
Top 5% of her class, class president, all while taking care of two kids while I was called back to active duty and deployed.
Picked for a highly competitive residency. Chief resident her last year. Again, picked for a highly competitive fellowship.
The background and experience she and other “non traditionals” bring to medicine really sets them apart. My wife did some of her medical school rotations with some med students from a “Doogie Howser” school of medicine- six year college/medical school programs. Brilliant kids, but the social skills of gnats.
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Ask your wife if she thinks residency would have been easier younger and without kids and get back to me.

I’m not saying those folks don’t excel, I’m saying residency sucks and the less things you have to deal with outside of residency there is slightly less suck. I was one of those older folks, started residency at 32, had 2 kids and a 3rd in fellowship. Did I do well, yes. Did I get to spend much time with my kids, nope. Did I rely heavily on family and have childcare issues that precluded me from doing some things, yep. Did it really suck trying to recover after 30hrs awake, yep. Have I seen residents have massive struggles when their childcare fell through, yes. Would I change my career path, no way.

If you have the opportunity to go, go as early as you can. If you don’t have the opportunity then don’t sweat it, you’ll be fine.
 
A1Janitor said:
My son said that the one thing that is really good is the Academic Help Center - he said it is very hard to do poorly academically because of the resources available.

And I contend every college sucking the money out of america should look at USNA’s system.
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Only responding because this is a potentially misleading post. With respect, your son is a plebe who hasn’t yet completed a full semester yet at USNA. The obligations and other pulls on a MIDN’s time can very easily and will most likely WILL affect academic performance at some point. Yes the academic help available is fantastic. But performing well academically isn’t always a function of academic aptitude. As your son will see at some point throughout his remaining 3.5 years.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Disagree.
Wife was in her late 30’s when she started medical school.
Top 5% of her class, class president, all while taking care of two kids while I was called back to active duty and deployed.
Picked for a highly competitive residency. Chief resident her last year. Again, picked for a highly competitive fellowship.
The background and experience she and other “non traditionals” bring to medicine really sets them apart. My wife did some of her medical school rotations with some med students from a “Doogie Howser” school of medicine- six year college/medical school programs. Brilliant kids, but the social skills of gnats.
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As a non-traditional college student myself, couldn’t agree more. Maturity, life experience, living and dealing in the real world is invaluable imo. Kuddos to your wife!!
 
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justdoit19 said:
Only responding because this is a potentially misleading post. With respect, your son is a plebe who hasn’t yet competed a full semester at USNA. The obligations and other pulls on a MIDN’s time can very easily and will most likely WILL affect academic performance at some point. Yes the academic help available is fantastic. But performing well academically isn’t always a function of academic aptitude. As your son will see at some point throughout his remaining 3.5 years.
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There are also the greatest resources for the Plebe classes since everybody has to take them. AcCenter is only for calc, chem, physics, and a couple other core classes. Depending on your major you could be taking some really difficult classes that only your professor will be able to help you with. That being said, professors here tend to be awesome with offering extra help.
 
justdoit19 said:
Only responding because this is a potentially misleading post. With respect, your son is a plebe who hasn’t yet completed a full semester yet at USNA. The obligations and other pulls on a MIDN’s time can very easily and will most likely WILL affect academic performance at some point. Yes the academic help available is fantastic. But performing well academically isn’t always a function of academic aptitude. As your son will see at some point throughout his remaining 3.5 years.
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Of course, there are other factors that could make scores go down. The point is ... the academic resources available allows a student to do their best in their circumstances.

He of course is talking about his circumstances ... plebe academic year.

His exact discussion centered around the resources available to him at USNA as opposed to what’s available at Cornell and other colleges his friends go to and how he believes it is helping him. He doesn’t think he would be doing as well as he is without it - and thinks his friends would do better if they had it.

I am glad my son found the resource, as opposed to the frat parties others have at civilian colleges.
 
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usna1985 said:
My suspicion (and it's only that), is that the reason is due to the fact that some 1/C don't get their first choice -- and a very small number may not get their second choice either. Maybe they want this discussion to occur with the CO/SEL in private rather than having it live streamed -- or have the firsties face disappointment in the midst of a "media event."

While I enjoy ship selection a much as anyone, service assignment is serious business and it doesn't work out for everyone the way they'd hoped. While it may be hard for today's generation to contemplate, not everything in life must -- or even should -- be streamed.
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DS did not get his first choice and was told privately that he wasn’t getting his first (though not what he was getting, which turned out to be his fifth!). He then learned at a Company-wide meeting what he was getting. Being done in private didn’t make it much easier, BTW. Especially since he’s maxed every PRT since he’s been there and is top half OOM. Fifth choice was a tough pill to swallow.
 
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Z
justdoit19 said:
Only responding because this is a potentially misleading post. With respect, your son is a plebe who hasn’t yet completed a full semester yet at USNA. The obligations and other pulls on a MIDN’s time can very easily and will most likely WILL affect academic performance at some point. Yes the academic help available is fantastic. But performing well academically isn’t always a function of academic aptitude. As your son will see at some point throughout his remaining 3.5 years.
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Finally - I was responding to OldRetSWO about plebes being run out during plebe year in the past vs plebes staying with it today.

The discussion was about plebes - it wasn’t about upperclassmen.
 
OldRetSWO said:
if you stop and think about it, this is some small number of mids, who likely have little to no actual fleet experience deciding that they know better than the Admissions Board which has numerous people with fleet and real world experience.
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You believe that it was a function of a small number of Mids deciding they know better knowing better than The Admissions Board?

I have agreed with most everything you have said during my short week here... however, I can not find this statement demonstrates an accurate portrayal of the Plebe System back in the day. Most of the 33% of my Classmates did not leave because they were run out by "mids, who likely have little to no actual fleet experience" - which has virtually nothing to do with it - but rather academics - one 2.49 and out - or Honor - on lie, cheat, or steal and out.

The very next year those 1/C will be the Ensigns deciding in large measure which of their Division Members gets a shot at advancement, possibly receives disciplinary action, etc.

No disrespect intended, but we obviously disagree completely on this - I realize times change, and I am an era somewhat before yours - but we did the best we could to make sure we that graduated measured up.

I do look forward to reading more of your informative posts!

(BTW, where can I post a cartoon about Thanksgiving on a Submarine?)
 
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SaltiDawg said:
You ...

(BTW, where can I post a cartoon about Thanksgiving on a Submarine?)
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There is a thread I started some time ago, “Humor for my Navy and Marine Friends.” Plenty of good cartoons there. I can’t recall if it’s in Off-Topic or After the Academy, since I have it bookmarked and never look.
 
SaltiDawg said:
You believe that it was a function of a small number of Mids deciding they know better knowing better than The Admissions Board?

I have agreed with most everything you have said during my short week here... however, I can not find this statement demonstrates an accurate portrayal of the Plebe System back in the day. Most of the 33% of my Classmates did not leave because they were run out by "mids, who likely have little to no actual fleet experience" - which has virtually nothing to do with it - but rather academics - one 2.49 and out - or Honor - on lie, cheat, or steal and out.

The very next year those 1/C will be the Ensigns deciding in large measure which of their Division Members gets a shot at advancement, possibly receives disciplinary action, etc.

No disrespect intended, but we obviously disagree completely on this - I realize times change, and I am an era somewhat before yours - but we did the best we could to make sure we that graduated measured up.

I do look forward to reading more of your informative posts!

(BTW, where can I post a cartoon about Thanksgiving on a Submarine?)
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First of all, thanks for the complements.

Secondly, I don't mean to imply that people being "run out" were the majority of the well over 33% of my classmates who did not graduate. I tend to think that it was academics and voluntary resignations for my class but there was definitely a small number who were "pushed" there and it was not always First class as I saw some Second Class and even Youngsters who waded into the fray.
Personally, I believe that there is a difference between training/holding plebes to a standard and humiliating/torturing plebes because it's "fun" (or because that's what was done to YOU). Training and holding people to a standard is appropriate behavior for an officer in the Navy. There were other behaviors that would get an officer bounced off of most ships or commands.
 
My Observations of my years:

Youngsters were made to be Seen and not heard.
2/C carried a lot of the Plebe Indoctrination
1/C provided the oversight and checks and balances.

No Plebe would have been "forced out" by a youngster or a Segundo- unless an Honor Offense.

Each Plebe had an assigned 1/C that was his firsty. Sometimes that firsty was a helicopter "mom" - sometimes of no help or guidance.
 
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