Should I go Navy or Air Force?

Should I go Navy or Air Force?


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Pineapple

New Member
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Apr 23, 2020
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I have been lucky to receive a direct appointment to USAFA for the class of 2024 and an offer to the Naval Academy Prep School. The extra year at NAPS is not a factor in my decision. I would love to go to either academy, so I am basing my decision on what I will do in the Navy or Air Force after graduation. My preferred job would be a fighter pilot, but I believe that I would be happy with a non-flying assignment such as a developmental engineer in the Air Force or as an NFO in the Navy. I plan to major in astronautical/aeronautical engineering, and I would love to earn the rare opportunity to attend grad school directly out of the academy. Finally, one of my long term goals is to become a test pilot (I know that I have countless hurdles to worry about before such goals).

  1. I was wondering if there are any opportunities to become an engineer (other than as a Civil Engineer) directly out of USNA.
  2. Also, I hear that the Air Force has maybe 0 to ~4 slots per UPT class depending on the needs of the Air Force. How does the Navy compare in terms of fighter slots per class?
  3. Lastly, what are some other factors I should consider when making my decision?

Right now, I see the Air Force as the “safer” option in terms of alternate career choices if I do not get a pilot slot, and I have the notion that there is a better chance to get a fighter slot in the Air Force due to the USAF’s 1,607 fighters vs. the Navy’s 473 fighters. However, in my heart, I have a deep desire to serve in the fleet and live on a ship. Thank you for your time.
 
Hi Pineapple,

NFOs fly.
Have you ever been on a USN ship?
Being a Marine combat engineer is a possibility after USNA. They blow up and otherwise destroy stuff.
I'll vote in your poll soon.
 
Big omnibus of questions:
One answer. If you go Navy pilot out of USNA, you will not know what you will finally fly until a certain point in your flight training pipeline. It is all based on the needs of the Navy or Marine Corps (if you went Marine Air). You could be the top student in your section, but if no fighter/attack slots are available at the time of assignment, you will go to another airframe.

You seem to be taking a balanced approach, looking at post-commissioning careers, and understand water-based environments play a big role in Navy life.

You have two good choices. If you don’t get pilot, compare your other opportunities in each service.

Research the EDO Engineering Duty Officer ( NOT EOD) communities if you want to focus more on engineering down the road.

Officers are expected to be conversant enough in engineering and STEM principles so they are informed leaders of their sailors; you become proficient in engineering management in some roles. It’s your sailors, senior enlisted leaders, LDO and CWO officers who are your deeply experienced, hands-on, tech-savvy, resourceful wizards of the Navy’s many and sizable machines.
 
All of the Test Pilots that I've known did NOT go directly to Grad school, they went to the fleet as soon as they could (thru flight school first) and established themselves as SH aviators (**** Hot) which then led to Postgrad school and eventual TPS. A good friend commanded the Test Squadron at NAS Pax River and later the base itself and I know that he did not do immediate Post Grad. Nor did my other friend who after being a test pilot, commanded NAS China Lake where the weapons testing is done.
 
Not that it can’t be done, or shouldn’t be done, but going to MIT or Ga Tech, say, for 2 years right out of USNA, then the aviation pipeline, puts you behind your year group peers right away, so you hit your first operational squadron two years after classmates, AOCS and NROTC year group peers. You will be behind your year group on flight hours and professional warfare quals. If you want to be a test pilot, your warfare specialty performance in operational squadron missions at sea will be the juicy part of your performance record when you apply for TPS, as well as your leadership in your ground job. You have to be blindingly stellar from the get-go.

All officers have the opportunity to get their Master’s in a variety of ways after their first operational tours. If you are consistently the top performer in your comparison group and a player for the test pilot path, trust me, the Navy will ensure you get any post-grad engineering education they want you to have.

Be open to the journey and opportunities along the way. It’s good to have a rough plan outline that is edit-friendly.
 
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For your USNA fact list, the Class of 2020 career path selection numbers:


I don’t think the percentage going Navy pilot varies by many percentage points each year.
 
Also, I hear that the Air Force has maybe 0 to ~4 slots per UPT class depending on the needs of the Air Force. How does the Navy compare in terms of fighter slots per class?
No really sure what you mean by this, but you're pretty much guaranteed of flying if you go to USAFA and you're medically qual'd to fly. Personally, I've never met an academy grad who wanted to go to flight school and didn't. I've heard of it happening but its pretty rare. I have however met more than a few ring knockers that couldn't pass muster once they were in flight training but that's a different story. Keep in mind, I'm only talking about the Air Force Academy. I'm not sure how the Naval Academy does business, but I would venture to guess that similarly, as long as you don't screw up, and you're qualified, you'll be given a chance to fly.

It sounds like you truly would rather be at sea, so in that case I'd say go Navy if you're willing to put up with the extra year at the prep school. As far as developmental engineering goes, do some more research if you're truly interested in it. I know several 62E's and they have a pretty standard, corporate, non-military lifestyle. They all work cushy jobs in an office building from 8-5, almost never deploy, and can earn a sh** ton of money after they get out. So if reaping all of the benefits with few of the responsibilities is your goal, then maybe developmental is your thing.
 
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I had to search for awhile to find this but this was one of the best posts I read about a similar situation as yours:

I can do no better than the below:


22 December 2005

Young Man,

Congratulations on your selection to both the Naval and Air Force Academies. Your goal of becoming a fighter pilot is impressive and a fine way to serve your country. As you requested, I'd be happy to share some insight into which service would be the best choice. Each service has a distinctly different culture. You need to ask yourself "Which one am I more likely to thrive in?"

USAF Snapshot: The USAF is exceptionally well organized and well run. Their training programs are terrific. All pilots are groomed to meet high standards for knowledge and professionalism. Their aircraft are top-notch and extremely well maintained. Their facilities are excellent. Their enlisted personnel are the brightest and the best trained. The USAF is homogeneous and macro. No matter where you go, you'll know what to expect, what is expected of you, and you'll be given the training & tools you need to meet those expectations. You will never be put in a situation over your head. Over a 20-year career, you will be home for most important family events. Your Mom would want you to be an Air Force pilot...so would your wife. Your Dad would want your sister to marry one.

Navy Snapshot: Aviators are part of the Navy, but so are Black Shoes (surface warfare) and Bubble Heads (submariners). Furthermore, the Navy is split into two distinctly different Fleets (West and East Coast). The Navy is heterogeneous and micro. Your squadron is your home; it may be great, average, or awful. A squadron can go from one extreme to the other before you know it. You will spend months preparing for cruise and months on cruise. The quality of the aircraft varies directly with the availability of parts. Senior Navy enlisted are salt of the earth; you'll be proud if you earn their respect. Junior enlisted vary from terrific to the troubled kid the judge made join the service. You will be given the opportunity to lead these people during your career; you will be humbled and get your hands dirty. The quality of your training will vary and sometimes you will be over your head. You will miss many important family events. There will be long stretches of tedious duty aboard ship. You will fly in very bad weather and/or at night and you will be scared many times. You will fly with legends in the Navy and they will kick your *** until you become a lethal force. And some days - when the scheduling Gods have smiled upon you - your jet will catapult into a glorious morning over a far-away sea and you will be drop-jawed that someone would pay you to do it. The hottest girl in the bar wants to meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore. Bottom line, son, if you gotta ask...pack warm & good luck in Colorado.

Banzai

P.S.: Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits.
P.S.S. And oh yes, the Army pilot program, don't even think about it unless you got a pair bigger than basketballs. Those guys are completely crazy.
 
No really sure what you mean by this, but you're pretty much guaranteed of flying if you go to USAFA and you're medically qual'd to fly. Personally, I've never met an academy grad who wanted to go to flight school and didn't. I've heard of it happening but its pretty rare. I have however met more than a few ring knockers that couldn't pass muster once they were in flight training but that's a different story. Keep in mind, I'm only talking about the Air Force Academy. I'm not sure how the Naval Academy does business, but I would venture to guess that similarly, as long as you don't screw up, and you're qualified, you'll be given a chance to fly.

It sounds like you truly would rather be at sea, so in that case I'd say go Navy if you're willing to put up with the extra year at the prep school. As far as developmental engineering goes, do some more research if you're truly interested in it. I know several 62E's and they have a pretty standard, corporate, non-military lifestyle. They all work cushy jobs in an office building from 8-5, almost never deploy, and can earn a sh** ton of money after they get out. So if reaping all of the benefits with few of the responsibilities is your goal, then maybe developmental is your thing.
I meant to say, "I heard there are about 0 to 4 fighter slots per UPT class in the Air Force". I was wondering how the chances of landing a fighter slot in the Navy compare. Also, thank you for your insight into developmental engineers.
 
Great call in thinking about the long term career implications. It's also smart to think about other career paths if you don't get your #1 choice. Realize that the Pilot service commitment is long and your life at the end of it will most likely be different than when you start it. I'm a ROTC grad but from my knowledge if you attend USAFA, and you want to fly, you most likely will get the opportunity to go to UPT.

Normally, UPT classes get 4-6 T-38 slots out of about 25ish total students. Recently, most 38 guys have been getting fighters in their drops. Another interesting thing for you to consider is that you can attend TPS with a fighter or heavy background. If you google "AFI 99-107" you should be able to find the AF's most recent TPS admission requirements. Like you mentioned though, that opportunity is a long way down the road.
 
Both have the opportunity to meet those goals. I would say that the AF has a higher number of fighter positions (and more fixed-wing aircraft in general) than the USN. The AF has a lot of fighters and does a lot of engineering/R&D projects. Both are ways into the test community (pilot or flight test engineer). That said, do your research. Being a test pilot isn't like the movie The Right Stuff anymore. From people who have done test, it is different and cool, but very scripted (x maneuvers in y order in z amount of time, kind of thing).
If you have a desire to live on a boat, AF doesn't do much of that...
 
I meant to say, "I heard there are about 0 to 4 fighter slots per UPT class in the Air Force". I was wondering how the chances of landing a fighter slot in the Navy compare. Also, thank you for your insight into developmental engineers.
That is correct about the 0-4. Not only is it 0-4, but that number includes National Guard, Reserves and sometimes foreign students. In my sons class of 18, only one person got a fighter type and that was a National Guard who got a A-10 which was guaranteed to him assuming he graduated. The next class who also graduated on the same day (never figured that out) had 3-4 pilots gettting fighter but one those was National Guard and again that was guaranteed to him. Here is the thing about fighters. Many people including my son wanted them. However by the time UPT was done while he still requested fighters on his dream sheet (list of planes in you want to fly) as his first choices, he wasnt disappointed when he got a bomber instead. He never really liked dealing with really High G forces and he didnt like tactical formation although he was good at it. My point being is that you may think you want a fighter now, but you could end up with lliking else. Even more importantly, your instructors have have to think you are going to be good at fighters and most critical when they split the class between the T-1 and the T-38 after graduating from the T-6 Texan, you better be in the T-38 group, or you have zero chance of flying fighters. The thing is there are so many steps between now and then that worrying which school will get you a fighter is crazy. Statiscally speaking, you probably arent going to get a fighter out of the Air Force and the Navy has a lot less fixed wing that the Air Force, so you could wind up flying a helicopter. Not saying you arent going to be a fighter pilot because every fighter pilot out there beat the odds, but you have a long way to go because that happens and nobody knows what the state of either branch will be like. I mean you have four years of college. Maybe another year of casual duty and a full year of UPT. You wont know what you are going to fly for another 6 years.
 
That is correct about the 0-4. Not only is it 0-4, but that number includes National Guard, Reserves and sometimes foreign students. In my sons class of 18, only one person got a fighter type and that was a National Guard who got a A-10 which was guaranteed to him assuming he graduated. The next class who also graduated on the same day (never figured that out) had 3-4 pilots gettting fighter but one those was National Guard and again that was guaranteed to him. Here is the thing about fighters. Many people including my son wanted them. However by the time UPT was done while he still requested fighters on his dream sheet (list of planes in you want to fly) as his first choices, he wasnt disappointed when he got a bomber instead. He never really liked dealing with really High G forces and he didnt like tactical formation although he was good at it. My point being is that you may think you want a fighter now, but you could end up with lliking else. Even more importantly, your instructors have have to think you are going to be good at fighters and most critical when they split the class between the T-1 and the T-38 after graduating from the T-6 Texan, you better be in the T-38 group, or you have zero chance of flying fighters. The thing is there are so many steps between now and then that worrying which school will get you a fighter is crazy. Statiscally speaking, you probably arent going to get a fighter out of the Air Force and the Navy has a lot less fixed wing that the Air Force, so you could wind up flying a helicopter. Not saying you arent going to be a fighter pilot because every fighter pilot out there beat the odds, but you have a long way to go because that happens and nobody knows what the state of either branch will be like. I mean you have four years of college. Maybe another year of casual duty and a full year of UPT. You wont know what you are going to fly for another 6 years.
I didn’t fly fighters, but one of the big down sides to flying them, at least in the Air Force, is doing Atlantic and Pacific crossings in them. A Pacific crossing can be mind numbing in a multi crew airplane. I can’t imagine how painful it would be in a fighter.
 
I didn’t fly fighters, but one of the big down sides to flying them, at least in the Air Force, is doing Atlantic and Pacific crossings in them. A Pacific crossing can be mind numbing in a multi crew airplane. I can’t imagine how painful it would be in a fighter.
In a fighter it's normally done in hops. You have (well, had, I haven't done it in...that many years) "normally: an eight-hour flight limit (which could be and often was, waived). Of course, in eight hours...you could get a long way. However...it is...not fun. For those who have never sat on an ejection seat...climb onto your dinner table...sit there upright with your legs only slightly apart...and stay there. I could go on...but I'll give you the one I think was the worst (and I didn't fly it).

My roommate from the academy was in the 1st Fighter Wing at Langley when Desert Shield kicked off. They were the "first" in. Their entire wing of 70+ aircraft deployed from Langley AFB, Virginia to Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. The flight was just over 15 hours non-stop with something like 12 refuelings. He said when he got there he had to have the crew chiefs lift him out of the cockpit.

It's not all movies and glamor.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
I had to search for awhile to find this but this was one of the best posts I read about a similar situation as yours:

I can do no better than the below:

Thanks BBQ --- that little spiel comes to mind every time I see the USN or USAF question . I did part of my NFO training at an Air Force Base , and can attest that there are a lot of truths in there. GO NAVY !
 
A Pacific crossing can be mind numbing in a multi crew airplane. I can’t imagine how painful it would be in a fighter.
As @flieger83 it is done in hops.
I recall when he flew from England to Turkey they would fly to the Azores or Spain on the 1st day. Than the next day they would make it to Turkey.
They usually fly in 4 ships. IOWS 4 fighters will go together.
Realize that for fighters they have a short fuel range, so they will need to refuel during their flights, and they usually do it at least 2x. 1st time is at the point of return if there is an issue of refueling. Than they will do it again, some time during the flight. Thus, it is not like they are just sitting in the cockpit doing nothing for 8 straight hrs.

I recall asking my husband 1 time about how boring it must be and he told me, not really because he said my husband that they would play games with the other planes, such as virtual trivia pursuit, Name that Tune or I Spy (looking at something inside their aircraft). Thus, it is not that mind numbing as one might think.

It's not all movies and glamor
When Bullet retired his video montage was played to I'm going Home by Chris Daughtry. In the song it says:
Be careful what you wish for
'Cause you just might get it all
You just might get it all
And then some you don't want

Everybody laughed. He had posted a picture that he took while flying in AK (F15E) and the beautiful mountain ranges.. The next picture was him with his bunk/crew mates ( 4 guys) standing outside of a tent.
~ AF people will get why everyone laughed. For those that do not, the AF is usually referred as the "spoiled" branch. Roughing it for them is sharing a Q or hotel room with somebody. Making O4 is a mile marker and of course it comes with a nice pay bump. However, for fliers, or at least it was when Bullet served, the true perk came with any TDY. O4 and higher didn't have to share a room. Thus, when the pic was outside a tent, it was timed to AND THEN SOME YOU DON'T WANT.

Finally, our DS asked my husband why he chose the AF over the Navy. My husband responded with 2 reasons.
1. He did not feel like landing a plane on the size of postage stamp on a football field.
~~ Perspective wise, as big as an aircraft carrier is, compare it to an ocean, and that is what it would look like.
2. After flying a mission, he wanted the runway to be exactly where he left it upon his return.
 
I want to place some reality into what @BBQ-Devil posted.
My hubby served for 21 yrs. He flew fighters.
Our DS is now an ADAF pilot.
Over a 20-year career, you will be home for most important family events.
This is total BS!
In the 21 yrs. My hubby missed 40-50% of my birthdays, and since 2 of our children's birthdays are 2 weeks apart from mine, he missed theirs too.
His 1st TDY for 3 weeks was 10 days after our 1st child was born.
He missed every Halloween from the time our youngest was 5 months old to the time he was 8.
He missed our eldest son's 1st Holy Communion.
I can clearly recall Thanksgivings without my husband. Want to break a mother's heart, here you go. In our family we go around the table and say what we are thankful for. Imagine your 8 yr old saying: I am thankful for that even though Daddy is not with us, he is alive. How many 8 yrs old have that in their mind? I don't recall being 8 and thinking, well at least he is alive.

Our closest friend was a crew mate that we did 2 back to back assignments. In those 7 yrs. I was her date for their anniversary every yr. because they were gone. Her youngest child's bday was 2 weeks prior to their anniversary, and her bday a was the day b4 their anniversary. Thus, for them too, for 7 yrs he was gone.

Don't even get me started on Hurricane season. Jets are sent to safety, while the families stay at home and ride it out.

FFWD to DS. He is a heavy pilot and a proud father of 2 little girls (3 and 1 yrs old).
He was told both times of his impending fatherhood via Skype/Face time. He left his wife skinny and returned to see her with a belly. He was never there to hear the heart beat, see the sonogram, feel the 1st kick, etc. Instead, he came home and had to get the room ready for the baby.
He missed their 2nd, 3rd and 5th anniversary. He just celebrated his 6th, hence 50%.
He will be deployed this fall for 5 months.
He will miss his DD's 1st day of school.
He will miss Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas and Valentine's Day.
He will miss his DD's 4th birthday.

Bullet served from 87 to 08. Our DS entered in 12, operational in 13. So you can see in 30+ yrs. fighters or heavies, that comment is absolute BS! Do not think for a second that is reality.

Would I do it again? Heck yes, and twice on Sunday! If there is any doubt, I just have to look at my eldest. He loved the life so much, he joined the AF.
FWIW, I am sure it is true for every branch, but it is amazing to see that my family is not a rarity.
~ I would say that @75% of our friends have 1 child that followed in the footsteps of their parent and joined the military.
~ At my DS's wedding he did a speech/toast. He was recently winged. He thanked his Dad for his AF life, and said that he finally got it. That although those that serve with him are not blood, they are his bretheren.

Whatever branch you select. You will have a family. Holidays and special occasions will most likely be celebrated with your military family. Your children will cry and be upset because you will be deployed or you will make them leave their BFFs due to a PCS. However, way down the line, they will be like my kids.
~ They will realize what an amazing life they had and how their non-military friends are envious. It usually happens when they enter college and they are not in a military community.
~~ You mean, you were born in England? You actually camped at Denali in AK? You lived through a tornado in KS? Hurricanes in NC? Went to 8 schools from K through 12?
To our kids because we were military, and our friends, and their kids were too, that was "normal"! It was only when they got to college that those memories became special. It turned from I hate/resent you for making us move again and leave my friends to I am so lucky to have had that opportunity and living through a cat 5 hurricane with all of the Moms and their kids in 1 house (Dads took jets to safety) is now a memory they smile everytime they think about it.
 
In a fighter it's normally done in hops. You have (well, had, I haven't done it in...that many years) "normally: an eight-hour flight limit (which could be and often was, waived). Of course, in eight hours...you could get a long way. However...it is...not fun. For those who have never sat on an ejection seat...climb onto your dinner table...sit there upright with your legs only slightly apart...and stay there. I could go on...but I'll give you the one I think was the worst (and I didn't fly it).

My roommate from the academy was in the 1st Fighter Wing at Langley when Desert Shield kicked off. They were the "first" in. Their entire wing of 70+ aircraft deployed from Langley AFB, Virginia to Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. The flight was just over 15 hours non-stop with something like 12 refuelings. He said when he got there he had to have the crew chiefs lift him out of the cockpit.

It's not all movies and glamor.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
At least he wasn't in an F-22 crossing the international date line for the first time. "CNTRL/ALT/DEL". I've done this one a few times and aside from Wake Island a whole bunch of nothing.

 
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