Whether in fact they (Smc) cadets especially Navy and or AF cadets really have much of an advantage in this changing budget climate
SMCs and Commission Slots
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Whether in fact they (Smc) cadets especially Navy and or AF cadets really have much of an advantage in this changing budget climate
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Just_A_Mom
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Army cadets certainly have an advantage. 4-5 years ago, during the build up nearly every ROTC cadet who wanted AD got it. Not so anymore. There are plenty of fully qualified Army ROTC cadets who will not be offered AD and commission into the Guard/Reserves, not by choice.
I can see the army cadet advantage under subsection (e). I do wonder about navy and AF cadets. Any actual experiences?
Just_A_Mom
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Like I said earlier - AF and Navy does not have the option of a commission directly into the National Guard/Reserves. Thus it's moot - although I have heard (on this forum) of some Navy and AF cadets in ROTC (not SMC's) being dropped from the program after they have contracted.
One more things - back before the current wars - US Code stipulated that SA and SMC grads be given a Commission into the REGULAR Army, as opposed into the Reserves - even if the ROTC cadet was commissioned AD. This was apparently a clear advantage in the case of a RIF.
This has changed now and all ROTC cadets who commission AD have a commission into the Regular Army. This was true of the AF and Navy as well.
This is my understanding, perhaps Bruno can expound.
So, while the Regular Army advantage of an SMC has gone away, there is still a clear advantage for Active Duty.
One more things - back before the current wars - US Code stipulated that SA and SMC grads be given a Commission into the REGULAR Army, as opposed into the Reserves - even if the ROTC cadet was commissioned AD. This was apparently a clear advantage in the case of a RIF.
This has changed now and all ROTC cadets who commission AD have a commission into the Regular Army. This was true of the AF and Navy as well.
This is my understanding, perhaps Bruno can expound.
So, while the Regular Army advantage of an SMC has gone away, there is still a clear advantage for Active Duty.
Not to belabor this point, but I understand that the Navy and the AF don't commission into the reserves or Guard. My question is whether being a cadet in a SMC actually means that you have more commission slots in the navy or the AF allocated to that unit In other words, do the services seek to take more commissioned officers from the SMC than from regular rotc. Nothing in that statute, 10 usc 2111a, seems to require them to do so. In a hypothetical example, VMI may have 20 AF rotc cadets that are otherwise qualified for commission. Will VMI be able to commission all of them? Will they share in any cut back of slots?
I can only speak for the Air Force. There are no "slots" allocated to detachments for commissioning. Honestly, today, being a SMC cadet today means very little to HQ AFPC. They do not seek to take more officers from SMCs over others. Their commissioning goals are nationwide, not school-specific. SMCs do commission more officers than most regular detachments, but that's not because HQ allocates them more "slots".
The only efforts I've heard of to boost accessions from certain schools, is when they ramp up recruiting efforts at certain schools to target minorities. SMC vs. regular ROTC doesn't mean very much in AFROTC. Not for EAs, rated slots, scholarships - they are all allocated on a national basis, without regard for schools.
Cutbacks will affect EVERY detachment, because those cuts are made on a national basis.
Again, I do believe that AROTC and NROTC operate differently. Maybe someone else can give first-hand info about them.
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Pima
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bruno said:
AFROTC is different they weed out when the cadets are 200's (sophs) and that is why you see them contracting with the Army. They know by March if they are selected, which gives them time to jump. These cadets see the writing on the wall, and many still want to serve, thus, they are left with one option really...go to the Army.
AFROTC doesn't guarantee even for scholarship cadets SFT (aka LDAC). If you do not get it, you cannot be promoted to 300, and thus you cannot be commissioned. It is truly the DO NOT PASS GO, DO NOT COLLECT 450 bucks a month!
A few yrs back (09) they did go to cadets in specific overmanned fields, just prior to commissioning and released them with no payback, even scholarship. However, that has really stopped because they than came back and hit SFT selection harder to maintain that manpower need for future commissionings.
That is the negative about AFROTC, there is absolutely no guarantee you will be commissioned as an officer even if you are a contracted cadet. It all about attending SFT. Once you attend it, it is like AROTC and your rating from there will be a part of your OML, so if you graduate at the bottom of the barrel, chances are you won't go rated or to the highly desired non-rated fields. You proved to them that against people across the nation, you were not the best. As we know OML's are national, and not just within your unit.
Pima
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Thanks, ag!
I think that is the thing, we know our "own", but rarely get the "other" because a lot of it is anecdotal or heresay.
This makes it difficult for candidates to make a truly informed decision, and fortunately for posters here there are people who can add clarity to the "other" system. Think about it, there are thousands of candidates without guidance and walking down a path with the info from a website or a glossy brochure.
I.E. Nick was able to illustrate for the AF attending an SMC will have no direct bearing on your OML.
CAVEAT: Attending an SMC usually has a higher % of cadets accepted for SFT compared to the national %, and since you need that to be commissioned, it does give you an edge. Yet, there is no guarantee at an SMC you will get SFT.
Additionally, IMPO, nobody should attend an SMC to "game" the system in hopes that you will have a higher chance of being commissioned AD or a better chance of getting your dream career.
OML includes your gpa. I am not saying go to a lower tier school for a higher gpa! I am saying go to a school, be it an SA, SMC or traditional that you want to attend. The fastest way to fail out or get a low OML is not having your heart in it 24/7. If you dread it, than it will show in some form. Remove the illusion of the name or prestige.
SMC's are not for every kid. Not every kid wants to live CoC or go to football games in uniforms. If you are not ready for that life be honest and address it. Just because you are not sure you are ready to live this life doesn't mean someone who is will outshine you in the end while you use this time to figure it out.
Understand, scholarship, no scholarship the SLATE IS CLEARED CLEAN the minute you enter. Command and cadets aren't going to give you a free pass because the military is paying for your tuition. They don't even discuss it at all!
Finally understand that the AD military system is in your life. The command are not retirees, they are AD members. The success or failure impacts them directly regarding their career for promotions and future jobs. Things like number 1 ROTC unit in the nation will go on their OPR/PRF. Just like your OML will acknowledge any award. It truly is a "team" effort, your success/failure is tied to theirs.
When you are a cadet remember that. Remember that your actions will impact them directly. They are tied to you!
I think that is the thing, we know our "own", but rarely get the "other" because a lot of it is anecdotal or heresay.
This makes it difficult for candidates to make a truly informed decision, and fortunately for posters here there are people who can add clarity to the "other" system. Think about it, there are thousands of candidates without guidance and walking down a path with the info from a website or a glossy brochure.
I.E. Nick was able to illustrate for the AF attending an SMC will have no direct bearing on your OML.
CAVEAT: Attending an SMC usually has a higher % of cadets accepted for SFT compared to the national %, and since you need that to be commissioned, it does give you an edge. Yet, there is no guarantee at an SMC you will get SFT.
Additionally, IMPO, nobody should attend an SMC to "game" the system in hopes that you will have a higher chance of being commissioned AD or a better chance of getting your dream career.
OML includes your gpa. I am not saying go to a lower tier school for a higher gpa! I am saying go to a school, be it an SA, SMC or traditional that you want to attend. The fastest way to fail out or get a low OML is not having your heart in it 24/7. If you dread it, than it will show in some form. Remove the illusion of the name or prestige.
SMC's are not for every kid. Not every kid wants to live CoC or go to football games in uniforms. If you are not ready for that life be honest and address it. Just because you are not sure you are ready to live this life doesn't mean someone who is will outshine you in the end while you use this time to figure it out.
Understand, scholarship, no scholarship the SLATE IS CLEARED CLEAN the minute you enter. Command and cadets aren't going to give you a free pass because the military is paying for your tuition. They don't even discuss it at all!
Finally understand that the AD military system is in your life. The command are not retirees, they are AD members. The success or failure impacts them directly regarding their career for promotions and future jobs. Things like number 1 ROTC unit in the nation will go on their OPR/PRF. Just like your OML will acknowledge any award. It truly is a "team" effort, your success/failure is tied to theirs.
When you are a cadet remember that. Remember that your actions will impact them directly. They are tied to you!
GREAT point
Pima: The shorthand is killing me. Is SFT "summer field training" and what is OML? and LDAC? I know that you guys live this stuff and it is second nature, but us civilian parents of SMC cadets are clueless. (My son would vigorously agree with that point).
All of this is very educational. Is it correct that the NROTC and MO NROTC are run differently than AFROtC? Can anyone opine on the differences? My DS wants a Marine commission
Ohio2015Parent
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SFT is Summer Field Training. OML= Order of Merit List and LDAC is Army's version of SFT, but completed the summer before senior year, Leadership Development something or other
It takes a little bit, but you will catch on too. I just figured one out the other day MOC = member of congress, so keep asking the questions, the shorthand has a thread somewhere that explains them all, but can't remember off hand.I cannot speak to your child's desire for Marine commission, mine has only been interested in Army. Hopefully one of the posters will have answers for you soon.
Yep. Each ROTC has significant differences in the way they commission (AF and N do not have a Reserve or Guard option), what they value in an Application, when they award the Scholarships, the TYPE of scholarships awarded (AF has a lot of essentially private school "half scholarships" whereas Navy is All or Nothing, and Army, at least this year, was mostly 4 Yr to In-State, or 3 Yr to Private or OOS Public (which I suppose you could call a 75% scholarship), etc. etc.
As you see from the above posts, AF eliminates a LOT of scholarships in the spring of sophomore year, whereas A and N do not...Army instead makes a cut at who is eligible for Active Duty vs. Reserves/Guard, and within Active Duty, who gets the first picks of Branch and who basically is assigned according to the "Needs of the Army" because they're lower on the OML. Since Navy does not have a REserves/Guard option, whoever starts the program has at least a 90% chance of finishing, assuming they don't voluntarily DOR (I am assuming another 10% - 15% DOR), and then all of them go Active Duty as an Ensign.
I don't mean to offend anyone, but if I were an applicant this year with aspirations of driving fast planes, I'd apply both NROTC and AFROTC. If offered both, it's clear which of the two is less likely to hard-drop me 40% of the way through.
P.S.
OML = Order of Merit List. A rank ordered list from high to low of a numerical score for each Cadet based on cumulative GPA, cumulative ROTC on-campus performance (Battalion class and Lab performance, Battalion leadership performance, PFT, ECs, volunteering), and the 4 weeks at LDAC.
LDAC = Leadership Development and ASSESSMENT Course: A four week course to determine how well a cadet learned the first three years of ROTC in his/her Battalion. Several Scores are issued, which compose a significant portion of the OML (see above). All 5,500 or so of the rising MSIV cadets attend as a prerequisite to MSIV branching.
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Thanks!! Most helpful. BTW, the AF program sound brutal, not to mention a bit wasteful to train someone for 2 years and then drop 40% of them. One would think that the weeding out process, if it were thought to be that desirable, would apply to all the branches, not just the AF. Of course, the AF is the only branch flying F-22s too....
I don't know if AFROTC drops 40%... I had the feeling it was about 25%-30%, but I don't know... they drop however many it is "40% of the way through" (middle of the Spring 2nd year). Which is apparently preferable to informing many cadets half-way through 8th semester that there is no room in the AF for their services, which is what I read here was common 3-4 years ago. Actually I read about a year ago on this Board that there were a few Navy ROTC mids who, after commissioning in May, were told their services weren't required after all... I suppose it is an accpetable last resort when junior officers are not electing to go Civilian after their initial Service Obligation in the % anticipated, and there is only room for 95% of the new officers out of college.
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