So If You Resign It is OK

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Just_A_Mom said:
The Pentagon acknowledges that some 80 percent of rapes are never reported - making it the most under-documented crime in the military.

Why do you think that is? Because they thought they would not be believed.

Ditto in the Graf case. Why do you think she got away with her actions all those years and her subordinates would not report her?
It turns into a he said/he said (or he said/she said) case and who wins that? The higher ranking officer.
Do you think if you made what would appear to be a false accusation of salacious nature against your Commanding officer it would enhance your career?
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So you put words in the mouth of the Pentagon? If you ask the Pentagon "are these cases unreported because doing so ends careers" the answer you get would NOT be yes.

Your comment is far enough off base you can't even directly connect the two.
 
If you take an action and your career is derailed because of that action - it might not "end" but it surely would not progress and some people would equate that with "end".
I can't tell if you are nitpicking or disagree with the overarching premise that making a report against a superior officer and not being believed could have a detrimental effect on one's career.
So, state your case - Why do YOU think that sexual harrassment is underreported - especially male on male? What IS the Pentagon's position - since you work there you should be able to find out.
Or are you arguing that it is not underreported or are you arguing that it doesn't exist?
Why do you think that those men did nothing to stop Massa's "shenanigans" and he got away with it for so many years?
 
It is a huge leap to believe that the majority of unreported rapes occur because of fear of ending careers. Many rapes in the "real" world are never reported either. The unreporting of a rape has more to do with a "he said/she said" issue, than it being a career ender.

In actuality, I can say Tail hook really changed the military, and the good old boy network of Tailhook and barstoolers were quickly addressed. It was no longer cool to be a 35 yo major acting like an 18 yo frat boy. In the AF barstoolers ran underground as fast as they could scurry. Not saying any of them ever raped anyone, just saying that the acknowledgement of being a member placed a bullseye on your back. In the early 90's you would see guys pulling Canadian Rodeo's in the club bar and they would never get in trouble. Pull that crap now and you can kiss your career goodby! Even more enlightening is the other guys in the crowd would be just as quick as the woman to call them out!

Rape does exist in the military and it should not be taken lightly, however, it is the social stigma that the victim feels that causes the under reporting, not the fear of a career ender. That being said the Pentagon needs to make sure all women believe that if they are raped, they should feel comfortable coming forward.

I hope that women do not feel this way, and that they know their male counterparts are like brothers, they are going to come to her defense and make that guy spend a long time make wrought iron furniture at Leavenworth. I do know of one case at a base we were once at...it was the guys in the squadron that came to her defense, and that rapist saw their career rightfully end. She is now a commander herself.
 
LineInTheSand said:
So you put words in the mouth of the Pentagon? If you ask the Pentagon "are these cases unreported because doing so ends careers" the answer you get would NOT be yes.

Your comment is far enough off base you can't even directly connect the two.
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I think the reality is more plausible than supposition. I have seen young men accused of sexual harassment for using a derogatory term reflective a young women's attitude on more than one occasion. So while sexual assault may be under reported sexual harassment was not in fact post Tail Hook I saw hyper sensitivity being the norm. As a Christian and father I do not condone such comments or even dismiss them but before I was either, I did. Looking back I like everyone reading this post has things in there life they wish they could take back, but the reality is you can not unring a bell. Did I ever suffer NJP for these actions, no but I did see the careers of a few shipmates end before they ever began. In the case of Graf it went the opposite direction she abused her power and position to intimidate those under her command and she did so safe in the knowledge that nothing would happen if she got the desired results. if anything the system failed her the Chief's should have talked to the CMC of her previous commands and he or she should have gone to the skipper who had been writing her fitreps and her style of "leadership" should have been on record, and she should have been properly mentored. I think the system failed completely and i fully expect to see more issues like this come to the surface and then corrective action will be taken over the long haul. With respect to Massa maybe he did cross the line but those lines were pretty blurry back in the day, and certainly not acceptable behavior in this day and age. All hail King Neptune; for my fellow shell backs.
 
Can't social stigma lead to the end of one's career?
Why is there social stigma? What do people think of the "victim". That - they "deserved" it, they are making it up, they are exaggerating the details, they "can't take a joke", they "wanted it" and just backed out at the last minute?
All of the above? The 'social stigma' for male on male sexual abuse is even worse.

If you report someone in your work place and there is a "social stigma" then - that can and does damage careers - enough for them to "end" prematurely.
 
I think in a male on male case. it is more of "I am not sure I was sexually harrassed" issue. The snorkeling is one issue, but the hitting his mate in the leg when he was remembering his spouse, is another. Not saying he was inadvertently asking, not saying he wasn't! That is when it becomes the problem. When do you know it was harrassment and not some poor joke or sense of humor? Was the guy who was caught remembering his wife going to walk into the squadron the next day and say" Hey guys, you will never believe what so and so said to me when he caught me remembering my spouse!"? Of course not, he is just as equally embarrassed of what was said to him as being caught in the act. Actually, I think he probably would have gotten more comments about him then what Massa said.

I remember back in the late 80's a pilot and a crew chief were caught, the 16's took a heck of a lot of ribbing about that for a long time.

Additionally, same sex on same sex, brings a whole new ball to the game...DADT. Maybe they are not reporting not due to the fear of a career ender for reporting a higher military member, but fear that now they are going to be looked at for being a homosexual, which is a career ender.
 
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Pima - since you brought up Tailhook. Tell everyone what happened to the WhistleBlower - Lt Paula Coughlin.......
 
Can't social stigma lead to the end of one's career?
Why is there social stigma? What do people think of the "victim". That - they "deserved" it, they are making it up, they are exaggerating the details, they "can't take a joke", they "wanted it" and just backed out at the last minute?
All of the above? The 'social stigma' for male on male sexual abuse is even worse.
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First, let me make this very clear. I believe that it is wrong for the social stigma. However, that stigma exists for that victim. It is their perception, not mine, to believe people will ask those questions.

Second, I agree that male on male stigma is worse, but I feel that is because of the homophobic fear that exists in our society. It is hard to make someone. anyone believe you were hit on by the same sex, if that attacker has a wife, and kids, and plays the image that they are heterosexual. It truly does become a he said/he said situation, and the victim has a hard time proving due to the beard, and I do mean stubble on the face.

Third, yes, in corporate America, careers do end because of sexual harassment, but my point was don't hold the military to a different statistic than the real world.
 
Tailhook had issues all around, I am sorry, but I don't remember it all regarding her, except for the fact that she won 5 million in damages against the Hilton.

Was she the one drinking out of the rhino, earlier in the day down by the pool? I guess you are implying the stigma issue.

Here's my answer to that...and it would be the same to our DD...don't put yourself in the situation. That floor was known for its hallway gauntlet. Did she think she was not going to be groped? Was it right that they groped women? NO! Would I be ashamed if my DS was one that groped? YES! Yet, the fact is it was not a secret on what was occurring, and she placed herself in that situation. She even acknowledged that she knew of the behavior, but felt like she was one of the guys so she wouldn't be attacked...excuse me? You knew of it and you didn't blow the whistle before you went on that floor? You turned your own blinds eye to the behavior and your sisterhood because you thought it won't happen to me. It was all fine until you were the victim. I will not make her into a heroine because she blew the whistle after the fact when she always knew the facts. She should have come forward earlier without ever going on that floor. She failed all of those other women because of her need to be "one of the boys". To her it wasn't about it being wrong, it was about herself. She went there believing she was safe (due to the fact that she was a pilot and an Adm. aide), and the questions begs to be asked, if she did not get grouped and they allowed her through would she still have come forward, or would she said, at least it wasn't me!

Why did she or any of these women go up to that floor knowing the facts? By going up there they encouraged the behavior of the men. Those guys would have not continued to that if 50 women got off the elevators together and start hitting them with baseball bats. They would have gotten a quick message knock it off. Maybe the gauntlet would have ceased to exist if every woman refused to even go up there, to prove a point to the men. The gauntlet was wrong, but it was known to be a enter at your own risk area. Would you approve of your DD walking in a crime riddle area by herself at night? NO, you would ask her why she placed herself in that danger? You would hug her, hold her, and damned the person who hurt her, but you would also say what were you thinking? If you ask her that question, than you must admit, you too have placed some responsibility on her shoulders.

I am sure you think I am being harsh, or believe she deserved it. Maybe I am, but placing yourself in the situation and then crying foul burns my goat, because that also causes the stigma to exist. She wasn't forced to get on that elevator and off that floor, she did it willingly knowing with facts what was happening to women. The woman forced to defend themselves, now has to fight the stigma because of other women. The innocent women who did not know what they were walking into will have to defend their actions because other women with knowledge created the illusion that they had the facts and didn't like the results. Many times women are our own worse enemies.

For tailhook there is no shortage of blame to be passed around regarding the behavior.
 
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Just_A_Mom said:
The Pentagon acknowledges that some 80 percent of rapes are never reported - making it the most under-documented crime in the military.
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I just love "statistics" like this.

"We have no idea how many are actually committed, so we'll make up a number, then make up a fictitious percentage, then do some math, and claim that the Military is actually a den of rapists."

:rolleyes::mad:

Ditto in the Graf case. Why do you think she got away with her actions all those years and her subordinates would not report her?
It turns into a he said/he said (or he said/she said) case and who wins that? The higher ranking officer.
Click to expand...

Probably because her seniors were too scared to dump her ass in the street as she deserved, because all she would have to do is write a letter and the likes of Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feistein would be all over the seniors like a rash.

Hell, they'd probably bring Patricia Schroeder in from her pad in Geriatric Park to relive the good old days of "Today we got rid of two admirals, and that makes it a good day."

I'd describe exactly how I see that malevolent harpy and her mudsucking comrades, but I'd most likely be banned, so I won't. :mad:
 
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Just_A_Mom said:
Can't social stigma lead to the end of one's career?
Why is there social stigma? What do people think of the "victim". That - they "deserved" it, they are making it up, they are exaggerating the details, they "can't take a joke", they "wanted it" and just backed out at the last minute?
All of the above? The 'social stigma' for male on male sexual abuse is even worse.

If you report someone in your work place and there is a "social stigma" then - that can and does damage careers - enough for them to "end" prematurely.
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Did the victim deserve it? NO, but hind sight is 20/20. I think the Military has become more socially responsible, and more acceptable to women in the various career fields. Post Tail hook All Naval personnel had to undergo annual Sexual Harassment awareness training which is still required today. As a young sailor I attended many of these events and while they were heavily resented in the beginning they were affective and necessary. I remember asking a Master Chief who was presenting why we had to pay for the mistakes made by a group of drunken super macho type A personality officers in Vegas that were living out the stereotype from the Movie Top Gun. His response was crap rolls down hill he did not use the word crap. He further stated "Men, the days running around on Liberty whistling cat calls at women like a drunken sailor are OVER!" while this was not immediate it was the beginning of the end.

While I agree with PIMA no one should be sexually assaulted, I also agree that sometimes but not all times the victim may have some sense of responsibility in the sense of what was he or she doing putting themselves in that situation. However the military has is it's own culture and one thing I respected as many do in the military is we don't harm our shipmates. When the rubber meets the road I was responsible for watching their back and vice versa. Doing other wise or sexually assaulting/harassing is counter to that core value. It is deplorable and should be met with a thorough investigation and swift justice provided the allegations are determined to be founded. IMHO.
 
^^^ This was also true for the AF. Tailhook touched every branch. I remember Bullet having to attend sexual harassment training too, they used to round them up and have it at the base movie theater for the entire day.

The military ebbs and flows. After Tailhook it ebbed, and then there was the time that the SA's had found rapes were occurring at a higher rate, thus the Pentagon directed their attention to that, this eventually ebbed. Then it was commanders having consentual sexual relationships with lower ranking officers in their command, (i.e.scootergate), that ebbed too. Now it is Massa.

The one thing all of these scenarios had in common is that the Pentagon immediately made every military member go to awareness training.

I also agree about doing no harm, that is why I stated, I know of guys who did not play the good old boy system and protected the attacker for fear they may "end" their career, they were the ones who stood up at attention and pointed a finger to defend the victim. The good old boy system is long gone and has been for many yrs when it comes to appropriate/acceptable behavior. Want to end your career, than be a "good old boy" and I am not taking about rape or harassment, I am talking about even inappropriate language in front of women pilots in the fighter community. Let's be honest the fighter community is known to be the epitome of the "good old boy". At our last base, fliers with unique names that had them for decades were forced to be renamed because their call sign may be misconstrued.
 
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You're asking two different questions....male on male, or subordinate to senior (I release in Massa's case, both are true).

Subordinate to senior? You better have a solid case, as making false accusations against a senior officer CAN end your career. Making a legit. claim against an officer who has abused his or her power, however will not end your career.

Male on Male? Sure there's a stigma. "I'm a man, I am manly and there is no way I could be taken advantage of." I know of officers/cadets who have reported that kind of abuse AND.....their careers are fine. The person who did the touching....not in the military anymore.

So why is it under reported? Not for fear of your career ending, because you reported someone, but because you would fear the snickers behind your back and generally people knowing your private business. Sexual assault in general has some things in common. You were abused and violated....that's not easy to report, no mater who it was.

When I was a cadet a female came to speak to the Corps of Cadets. She spot about sexual assault and rape. She said she never had a man tell her he had been abused. During the question and answer periond, in front of 1000 of his shipmates, a 2/c male stood up and said he had been touched when he was a child. The female almost started crying, saying that's the first time anyone had come out and told her that. At that level, in front of that many people, that took guts, but instead of people belittling him, we were impressed that he did that, that he was willing to put himself out there and share that with the entire Corps.

Your assertion that it would end a career and that's what people fear is unfounded and certainly not what the Pentagon was getting at. I personally believe it's because the person was violate and extremely vulnerable. There is a fear to become more vulnerable, and risking that that information would get out to others.
 
Pima said:
At our last base, fliers with unique names that had them for decades were forced to be renamed because their call sign may be misconstrued.
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Yep. They want to be treated "just like anyone else".......

...right up to the point they are treated like everyone else. :rolleyes:
 
Zaph, EXACTLY!

So why is it under reported? Not for fear of your career ending, because you reported someone, but because you would fear the snickers behind your back and generally people knowing your private business. Sexual assault in general has some things in common. You were abused and violated....that's not easy to report, no mater who it was.
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EXACTLY! It isn't under reported because of career issues, it is like general society, just believing it is easier to ignore than to acknowledge. The belief of I can get past this and nobody needs to know.
 
Subordinate to senior? You better have a solid case, as making false accusations against a senior officer CAN end your career. Making a legit. claim against an officer who has abused his or her power, however will not end your career.
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yes, this is what I said way back several pages ago. Good, so we agree.
When there are no other witnesses and the case is based on he said/she (he) said - this it is difficult for the victim to prove.
 
That is INDEPENDENT of sexual assault....so your "numbers" were sexual assault cases not reported, and your reasoning was fear of losing your job.

I'm sorry that's not a 1 to 1 relationship.

Let me try to make this a little simpler.



"People look both ways before they cross the street, because crossing the street is dangerous."

AND

"A meteor killed the dinosaurs."

If I use JAM logic here.....


"People look both ways before they cross the street because they are afraid of being killed by meteors."


What? Meteors are dangerous, so is crossing the street....they must be related.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
yes, this is what I said way back several pages ago. Good, so we agree.
When there are no other witnesses and the case is based on he said/she (he) said - this it is difficult for the victim to prove.
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To play devil's advocate, it's also nearly impossible for the guy to clear his name from the simple charge...and if the "victim" isn't really, but wants to cause someone trouble...this is the PERFECT way to do it: guilt until innocence proven.

FYI...I have had this type threat given to me by a student in HS that I was teaching...student said TO MY FACE: "If you don't f***ing lighten up, I'll just go to the principal and tell him you touched me...and your f***ing life will be over."

My "saving grace" was that he was 18 (HS senior) and stupid enough to say it loud enough that another person heard him.

Wanna talk about fear??

It's an UGLY situation, in both instances.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
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